death penalty please

[Tmy]

THE DP might be too good for some people. We dont know what happens to them. maybe death is bliss for all we know.

There are alot of evil scumbags who litter our prisons. THey are dangerous and have nothing no lose. They are a constant threat to the guards and other inmates. We're better off without them.

 

[BPSCG]

She didnt escape. She was let out of it.

Split hairs all you want - you're saying that because she got a lighter sentence, everyone should.

 

[Suddenly]

"Maybe because the death penalty is more expensive than life in jail? Face it, you're going to finance his punishment anyhow "


I never bought this line. Yeah I know th person has to be defended in appeals but so what. Thats why we have Public Defenders. The exist even in non DP states.

This is true, but we get paid as well, and in the end the extra work is going to cost the state more money. Public defenders aren't free. In fact, in many places there are no public defenders and local counsel is appoointed and then paid by the hour, providing a direct increase in expense.

Death penalty cases take longer and require higher scrutiny and preperation. This must in the end be paid for. If you think I'd take on DP cases (we dont have the DP right now) for the same $$ I'm getting for non DP cases, you are crazy. I'd be out the door in a flash absent a fat raise. The DP will change the market for legal services. Either pay up or use poor lawyers.

You could probably argue that the DP saves money. THe "No Death Penalty" carrot is used to get guilty pleas in murder cases. In non DP state the perp has no reason to NOT go to trial. Hes facing life in prison, might as well go for broke and drag everyone thru a trial.

Looking at that a different way, the DP is great because we can use it to scare innocent people into pleading guilty to murder. That way they don't drag us through the expense of a trial.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

Okay, let me ask you, how many innocent people are erroneously put to death each year? I myself don't know, but I doubt that even the most fervent death penalty opponents would argue that it is more than one or two (I'll be interested to stand corrected).

Now, how many innocent people are killed by someone who's already done time for a prior murder? According to the US Department of Justice, "Within 3 years [of 1994], 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide." URL=http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rpr94.pdf]Complete link.[/URL]

Table 3 in the reference indicates that the 18,001 people convicted of prior murders and released in 1994 went on to commit another 180 murders in the ensuing three years.

Conclusion: More innocent people die when convicted murderers are executed than when they are not.

You can't deduce from that, though, that the death penalty would prevent that from happening. As we know, the death penalty is handed out arbitraily (people murdering whites get it more than people who murder blacks, poor over not-so-poor, etc). You would have to analyse how many of those would actually have gotten the death penalty before you could say whether or not the death penalty would have an effect.

Unless you want the death penalty for all murder. Good luck to you.

 

[Tmy]

Okay, let me ask you, how many innocent people are erroneously put to death each year? I myself don't know, but I doubt that even the most fervent death penalty opponents would argue that it is more than one or two (I'll be interested to stand corrected).

Now, how many innocent people are killed by someone who's already done time for a prior murder? According to the US Department of Justice, "Within 3 years [of 1994], 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide." URL=http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rpr94.pdf]Complete link.[/URL]

Table 3 in the reference indicates that the 18,001 people convicted of prior murders and released in 1994 went on to commit another 180 murders in the ensuing three years.

Conclusion: More innocent people die when convicted murderers are executed than when they are not.

Your assuming those people wouldve recived the DP. If they get out of jail after a murder conviction then they werent convicted of a henious crime that wouldve even called for the DP.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Okay, let me ask you, how many innocent people are erroneously put to death each year? I myself don't know, but I doubt that even the most fervent death penalty opponents would argue that it is more than one or two (I'll be interested to stand corrected).

Now, how many innocent people are killed by someone who's already done time for a prior murder? According to the US Department of Justice, "Within 3 years [of 1994], 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide." URL=http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rpr94.pdf]Complete link.[/URL]

Table 3 in the reference indicates that the 18,001 people convicted of prior murders and released in 1994 went on to commit another 180 murders in the ensuing three years.

Conclusion: More innocent people die when convicted murderers are executed than when they are not.

And those are murders committed by criminals. Which is quite a different thing from unjust executions committed by the state. It's better to execute an innocent man than risk a possible future murder? I've often thought people put too much faith in statistics, but this is the first time I've heard an argument in favor of killing people because of them.

 

[Tony]

Having to pay taxes or being executed ?

I'd prefer that murderers and rapists be executed (that doesn't mean I don't have problems with the death penalty) and that I not pay taxes.


But you arbitrarily equated the death penalty with the Middle Ages. I showed that I can do the same thing with taxes. You said:

However I think there are a few things we should definitely abandon.

Like executing people, with whatever methods you may think of.

Why should we abandon the death penalty and not taxes? It seems that if we have moved beyond killing people for their crimes, we should defiantly move beyond stealing money from innocent people.

 

[Elio]

TragicMonkey,

Yes, and that is the popularly-heard view in opposition to the death penalty.

And a rational one, I would say...

I was making the point that not everyone has the same basis for objecting. A practical objection might convince those who are not swayed by rhetoric and arguments from an ethical viewpoint they do not share.

I'm still not sure if you are for or against DP...

Besides, I don't think that the ethical arguments against DP are just "rethoric".

Of course, guarantee completely accurate verdicts and we'll turn on you:

Still can figure out if you're being ironic...

Elio.

 

[Suddenly]

Your assuming those people wouldve recived the DP. If they get out of jail after a murder conviction then they werent convicted of a henious crime that wouldve even called for the DP.

No, he wants to execute all murderers, and his statistics for the most part hold up, except for three points:

1) More widespread application of the death penalty will create both a higher number of people being wrongfully executed, based on pure math as the total increases, and I would suggest at a higher error rate as people become more comfortable with the idea of the Death Penalty and quality legal help becomes scarce as many lawyers abandon the practice for emotional reasons.

2) Mandatory life sentences w/o parole achieves the same result as the DP

3) The biggie: even if the numbers still hold up in the end the harm done by the state killing an innocent is much greater than a criminal doing the same.

 

[Tmy]

Split hairs all you want - you're saying that because she got a lighter sentence, everyone should.

Im using her as an example of a glaring flaw in the current DP system. Her case shouldve been a no brainer when it came to the DP.

 

[Tmy]

Can you be against the DP for ethical reasons And be for doctor assisted sucide? For abortion???

Ethically, Im up for killing everybody!

 

[Whoracle]

People just need to admit the death penalty is all about revenge and nothing about making anyone safer. Death Penalty supporters become almost as sick as the killers themselves whenever they hear about someone they think deserves the death penalty, telling us all the sick ways they wish they could make the person die. Maybe this is what they masturbate to.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I'm still not sure if you are for or against DP...
.....
Besides, I don't think that the ethical arguments against DP are just "rethoric".

Still can figure out if you're being ironic...

Elio.

Oh, I'm for the death penalty philosophically, but against it in practice. Not being ironic--I have no ethical objections to execution for certain crimes. I just require complete certainty of guilt and total fairness in the judicial system first (no rich people getting off because they have money, etc). And as a realist, I don't think these prerequisites are going to be met.

I didn't mean to suggest an ethical objection to the death penalty was irrational or empty rhetoric, but merely that since I have an opposing ethical position that arguing from ethics wouldn't work.

Hence I have the satisfaction of a position that is simultaneously tough on criminals and enlightened and merciful.

 

[Abdul Alhazred]

One could as well argue that the rise in abortions 18 years ago caused a decline in murders today, although I won't.

Though some jackass of a professor at the University of Chicago has seriously advanced this hypothesis.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Yup.

 

[Tmy]

People just need to admit the death penalty is all about revenge and nothing about making anyone safer. .

Cna you get any safer than ridding the world of a dangerous murderer???

 

[Whoracle]

Life in jail serves the same purpose. Anyway it's never been shown that the death penalty lowers murder rates. Which makes sense because gee, criminals don't think they will ever be caught, imagine that.

 

[Tmy]

Life in jail serves the same purpose.

Not quite. Guards and other inmates are still in danger. The muderderer has few incentives to not harm the people he comes in contact with. Ever see these shows about the dangerous guys in supermax prisons.

 

[Elio]

Tony,

Locking a person in a cage for the rest of their lives (or any duration of time) isn’t barbaric?

I think that's the most extreme form of punishment acceptable. That is, being imprisoned...

Tony,

I'd prefer that murderers and rapists be executed (that doesn't mean I don't have problems with the death penalty) and that I not pay taxes.


But you arbitrarily equated the death penalty with the Middle Ages. I showed that I can do the same thing with taxes.

I don't think that was arbitrary. Most countries still have taxes and no plans to abandon them, while most civilized countries have abandon DP.

I don't think this is a coincidence.

You said :

However I think there are a few things we should definitely abandon.

Like executing people, with whatever methods you may think of.

Why should we abandon the death penalty and not taxes? It seems that if we have moved beyond killing people for their crimes, we should defiantly move beyond stealing money from innocent people.

I don't know a lot of people who would describe paying taxes as "stealing money from innocent people"...

Elio.

 

[Tony]

Oh, I'm for the death penalty philosophically, but against it in practice. Not being ironic--I have no ethical objections to execution for certain crimes. I just require complete certainty of guilt and total fairness in the judicial system first (no rich people getting off because they have money, etc). And as a realist, I don't think these prerequisites are going to be met.

I didn't mean to suggest an ethical objection to the death penalty was irrational or empty rhetoric, but merely that since I have an opposing ethical position that arguing from ethics wouldn't work.

Hence I have the satisfaction of a position that is simultaneously tough on criminals and enlightened and merciful.

This sums up my position on the death penalty pretty well.

 

[TragicMonkey]

People just need to admit the death penalty is all about revenge and nothing about making anyone safer.

What's wrong with revenge?