Death penalty is wrong, this is why..

That's how Creationists also think: That we are at the top of the evolutionary tree, as the end product.

Hilarious - Creationists think we're at the top of the evolutionary tree?

For all practical purposes, we're in the uppermost branches of said tree. Whether that puts us at the absolute top, only time will tell.

Isn't the latter exactly what you are doing? Whining about the prevalence of criminals and the perversity of justice that is your current system?

Maybe, but I saw it as proposing a system I feel would be more effective. I'd say that the latter is what this thread was about in general - that the death penalty is wrong.

Why are you so certain that deterrence is the best way to prevent crime? You seem to think that humans are best controlled - and happiest - when scared into submission.

I don't think I ever said 'happiest'.

But when calculating the probability that someone might commit a crime, deterrence does figure in to a large degree. Otherwise, no one would bother buying home security systems.

Childish namecalling generally works against your argument.

Childish? Sorry that calling you 'Clausy' offends you. I just prefer using the moniker because every time I write 'Clause' I picture Santa type, one each, red. And 'Claus' looks like it's spelled wrong to me, so I keep wanting to tack something onto the end. Plus, I feel I've interacted enough with you that referring to you as 'Larsen' or 'CFLarsen' is far too formal.

Besides, a little name-play is hardly going to sway anyone to my side anyway whether I do it or not, since I know for a fact my opinions in this matter are already fatally unpopular.

But that is only a minority. Unless, of course, you don't have compassion either for those average joes, who are neither hurt or homeless, or in distress, or are criminals.

A little confusion - who is a minority of what group? I feel nothing toward those who are OK, unless I know them personally. If they should come into undue distress, then I have compassion for them; otherwise, they're just average joes - faceless figures that can be safely ignored.

What about drug dealers? They destroy people and cause harm to society, too.

Execute them. By drug overdose. Make them snort/inject/ingest/smoke their own product until they die of it.

Given that you have not actually done anything to find evidence for your claim, that would most likely be true.

But you, in turn, have no evidence to back that statement either. And I'm not trying to convince people I'm right. If you want to show that it's untrue, please do. If you'd rather cry about 'no evidence', feel free. I really don't care either way.

But even if it was true, is that really a society you would prefer, to one that is not totalitarian? You would sell your freedom for security that is nothing but oppression?

Nothing but oppression? You have a curious view of the world. But, yes, I would prefer tightly restricted freedoms in exchange for security and the certainty of the survival of mankind, as long as the restricted freedoms make sense in the prevention of criminal and irresponsible behavior (I loved being in the military). I'd rather have my home monitored 24-7 to ensure no one engaged in criminal behavior, if it meant strongly reducing domestic violence, drug use, and other criminal activity.

I've always wondered, if a person is innocent of criminal behavior, why would they resent being monitored? Why do people cry, for example, against email monitoring, if they have nothing to hide? I always assume every email, phone call, personal letter, etc. are being read by faceless strangers, because it could be true. But then, I don't feel that I have anything to hide. And if I did have something to hide that was discovered, then I deserve to be caught, prosecuted, and punished. It's only fair.

You really think people who lived in fascist Germany and Italy felt safe?

Depends on the people in question, and the level of fascism they had to face.

Are you talking about volunteers, or will some people be forced to participate in these deadly experiments? Convicts, perhaps?

Works for me. Death row convicts would be ideal, in fact.

Of course, if we could just get over our problems with cloning, and perfect the science, we could have all the subjects we need.
 
It's free. And there are many activists who participate for various reasons.
So lawyers go through appeals for their clients without requiring additional fees? If you're saying that you can always rely on the state-provided council, I thought that you're simply appointed council by the state (unless you pay for your own), at which point the defendant would be completely unable to choose a "better" lawyer so that point of yours goes right out the window.

Of course if I'm wrong about state-appointed council removing the defendant's ability to search for better council for the state to pay in their stead, why does anybody ever pay for their own lawyer?

As for the activists, you shouldn't have to rely on media interest or the charity of others to not be wrongfully executed by the state. Do you disagree? Do you think that only high-profile cases or those with wealthy defendants are worthy of the best defense available?

Do I think that it's a bad idea that their wealth makes a difference? No.
Let me see if I have this straight.
You believe that impoverished Americans having a higher chance of being wrongfully executed by the state than their wealthy counterparts is not a bad idea?
In my opinion the judicial system should be completely blind to economic status - if you accept that some innocents are going to be executed, the population that is should be representative of the population as a whole.

As for slavery, do you own your body, your life, your labor or does the state?
And yet the state gets to determine the "price" of your body, your life and your labour. You're the one who said the price tag of a life is $1000000, but no matter how large an amount you choose it's always being selected by the system and not by the victim, so you are unable to set your own life's price. If people are not free to choose their commodity's selling price the market isn't free and so capitalist principles can't totally apply.

As I said, if the person freely agrees to sell themself into slavery and death, I have no problem with that situation (and no, I wasn't being sarcastic), but I don't like the idea of them being murdered against their will and the murderer being able to pay a fine, no matter how large, in "compensation". Once we've set a price on an arbitrary human life that is effectively allowable in the same way that property destruction can be compensated for by paying for the property's replacement.
 
So lawyers go through appeals for their clients without requiring additional fees? If you're saying that you can always rely on the state-provided council, I thought that you're simply appointed council by the state (unless you pay for your own), at which point the defendant would be completely unable to choose a "better" lawyer so that point of yours goes right out the window.


Wow! Where did I say lawyers don't get paid?
If you wish to rely on state-appointed council, be my guest.

Of course if I'm wrong about state-appointed council removing the defendant's ability to search for better council for the state to pay in their stead, why does anybody ever pay for their own lawyer?


Yes, you are wrong.

As for the activists, you shouldn't have to rely on media interest or the charity of others to not be wrongfully executed by the state. Do you disagree? Do you think that only high-profile cases or those with wealthy defendants are worthy of the best defense available?


Let me play my little violin for that first thought.

And do I think that somehow the lawyers who could provide the "best defense" should be forced to serve the state simply because they display competence? No.

Let me see if I have this straight.
You believe that impoverished Americans having a higher chance of being wrongfully executed by the state than their wealthy counterparts is not a bad idea?


It's not an "idea" to be voted on; it's a consequence of the current system.
If you have a suggestion to change that in some manner that will not cost me money or compel lawyers to act against their own interests, feel free to post it.

In my opinion the judicial system should be completely blind to economic status - if you accept that some innocents are going to be executed, the population that is should be representative of the population as a whole.


How you think the system "should" work is not relevant. Feel free to propose an improvement that we can subject to cost/benefit analysis.

And yet the state gets to determine the "price" of your body, your life and your labour. You're the one who said the price tag of a life is $1000000, but no matter how large an amount you choose it's always being selected by the system and not by the victim, so you are unable to set your own life's price. If people are not free to choose their commodity's selling price the market isn't free and so capitalist principles can't totally apply.


No, no, you missed it again. The million smackers is an actuarial figure to assess costs versus benefits for public policy decisions. Nothing more.

As I said, if the person freely agrees to sell themself into slavery and death, I have no problem with that situation (and no, I wasn't being sarcastic), but I don't like the idea of them being murdered against their will and the murderer being able to pay a fine, no matter how large, in "compensation". Once we've set a price on an arbitrary human life that is effectively allowable in the same way that property destruction can be compensated for by paying for the property's replacement.


We have such prices in all aspects of life. They are set by insurance companies all the time. They do not cover every individual person in every circumstance nor are they intended to. Nor do such valuations allow carte blanche violations of other people's rights for a predetermined fee as you imply.
 
Oh, I know coming up with the testing conditions would itself be a terrible exercise. What makes a person fit to be a parent, and what doesn't?

Yet we use tests to determine who should drive, and who shouldn't - although those tests are woefully inadequate.

Personally, I feel that there should be strict psychological tests for anyone wanting to parent, drive a car, vote, own weapons, and live on their own. I've gone over this in other threads before. And the full test regiment should be designed, modified, and improved over time by those qualified to understand what does and does not make a good parent. We already have some minimal standards for what does NOT make a good parent - we should simply expand upon those.

(And I know the problems with IQ tests - I've been battered by dozens of variations over the course of my childhood. At least for me, they all came up with roughly the same results.)

But I don't think our current 'democratic' system is capable of handling such a process. Too many people who would fall into the 'bad parent' category would be in position to fatally alter the procedure in their own favor, of course.

Who are those people who are "qualified" to determine what makes a good parent vs. a bad parent?

If someone passes these tests, but later change into "bad" parents, what should be done about the children? Should the children be forcefully removed from their parents? Should parents take regular tests, to ensure that they are "good" parents?

Hilarious - Creationists think we're at the top of the evolutionary tree?

For all practical purposes, we're in the uppermost branches of said tree. Whether that puts us at the absolute top, only time will tell.

*ding*

You have fundamentally misunderstood evolution. Humans are not the end product of evolution.

Thank you for calling.

Maybe, but I saw it as proposing a system I feel would be more effective. I'd say that the latter is what this thread was about in general - that the death penalty is wrong.

OK, others are "whining". You "propose a system".

I don't think I ever said 'happiest'.

I think I said "You seem to".

But when calculating the probability that someone might commit a crime, deterrence does figure in to a large degree. Otherwise, no one would bother buying home security systems.

How do you calculate the probability that someone might commit a crime?

Childish? Sorry that calling you 'Clausy' offends you.

It doesn't. It does, however show that you are intent on trying to offend.

I just prefer using the moniker because every time I write 'Clause' I picture Santa type, one each, red.

It isn't "Santa Clause", it is "Santa Claus".

And 'Claus' looks like it's spelled wrong to me, so I keep wanting to tack something onto the end.

Plus, I feel I've interacted enough with you that referring to you as 'Larsen' or 'CFLarsen' is far too formal.

Besides, a little name-play is hardly going to sway anyone to my side anyway whether I do it or not, since I know for a fact my opinions in this matter are already fatally unpopular.

So, because a name looks like it's spelled wrong to you, you feel entitled to try to mock people by making fun of their names?

A little confusion - who is a minority of what group?

Of the whole population. Not the entire population are criminals.

I feel nothing toward those who are OK, unless I know them personally. If they should come into undue distress, then I have compassion for them; otherwise, they're just average joes - faceless figures that can be safely ignored.

"Safely" for whom? Why?

Execute them. By drug overdose. Make them snort/inject/ingest/smoke their own product until they die of it.

What about those who give money for drugs?

But you, in turn, have no evidence to back that statement either. And I'm not trying to convince people I'm right. If you want to show that it's untrue, please do. If you'd rather cry about 'no evidence', feel free. I really don't care either way.

It is not up to me to prove you wrong.

Nothing but oppression? You have a curious view of the world. But, yes, I would prefer tightly restricted freedoms in exchange for security and the certainty of the survival of mankind, as long as the restricted freedoms make sense in the prevention of criminal and irresponsible behavior (I loved being in the military). I'd rather have my home monitored 24-7 to ensure no one engaged in criminal behavior, if it meant strongly reducing domestic violence, drug use, and other criminal activity.

I've always wondered, if a person is innocent of criminal behavior, why would they resent being monitored? Why do people cry, for example, against email monitoring, if they have nothing to hide? I always assume every email, phone call, personal letter, etc. are being read by faceless strangers, because it could be true. But then, I don't feel that I have anything to hide. And if I did have something to hide that was discovered, then I deserve to be caught, prosecuted, and punished. It's only fair.

Who would monitor you? Does this 24/7 surveillance apply to each and every individual in society?

Depends on the people in question, and the level of fascism they had to face.

The general public. Facing the fascism in Germany and Italy.

Works for me. Death row convicts would be ideal, in fact.

Of course, if we could just get over our problems with cloning, and perfect the science, we could have all the subjects we need.

You would breed people for the sole purpose of medical experiments, where a part of them would die?
 
Who are those people who are "qualified" to determine what makes a good parent vs. a bad parent?

Well, I'm certainly no expert in any field, but I'd guess they'd be the psychologists, social workers, sociologists, et. al. who have both the training and the experience to know what skills, experience, and mental profiles are attributed to positive aspects of parenting.

If someone passes these tests, but later change into "bad" parents, what should be done about the children? Should the children be forcefully removed from their parents? Should parents take regular tests, to ensure that they are "good" parents?

Both excellent ideas. Make sure there's an annual recertification, and if the parents fail to recertify, the children become wards of the state, for placement with better parents as they become available. Plus random spot-checks throughout the year by the authorities, or continual monitoring....

*ding*

You have fundamentally misunderstood evolution. Humans are not the end product of evolution.

Thank you for calling.

Nor did I say that we were. There are no 'end products' in evolution. But there are superior and inferior creatures in evolution - specifically, those creatures that can master their environments and adapt to new environments, while surviving in all environments in which they choose to exists, are superior; those that are inferior, die off.

You have jumped to your own conclusions, and assumed something untrue about my state of knowledge.

To play again, please deposit twenty-five cents.

OK, others are "whining". You "propose a system".

And maybe whine a little, too. You're so quick to try to demonize me, that you'll deliberately misquote me - how charming.

I think I said "You seem to".

You must be using a ten-speed; otherwise, you'd have stopped by now. :D

How do you calculate the probability that someone might commit a crime?

Go ask a criminologist.

It doesn't. It does, however show that you are intent on trying to offend.

Not at all. If I were trying to offend, I'd have referred to you as an obsessive half-witted Internet viking, raiding the forum to rape and pillage logic and reason while wearing an aluminum Viking cap and waving around a wooden sword yelling Nordic obscenities in a controlled whisper, so as to not offend your momma, whose basement you still live in... or something else similarly silly and moronic. 'Clausy' isn't trying.

***edited to add, no, I'm NOT calling C. any of this. It was an example of what I would do if that were my intent. Since this isn't my intent, this is only an example in the abstract. In spite of our differences of opinion and style, C., I strongly respect you and would never resort to childish attempts to offend. Please take this paragraph with the intent I stated - not as a personal attack.

It isn't "Santa Clause", it is "Santa Claus".

Yes, you're quite right - I blame Disney and that stupid Tim Allen series of movies. Point retracted, amigo.

So, because a name looks like it's spelled wrong to you, you feel entitled to try to mock people by making fun of their names?

Mockery would have a more definitive form to it. Say, if I called you 'Claws' or 'Cwossy' or 'Clawsen'. Or perhaps 'L'Arson'.

But since it bothers you so much, I'll try to restrain the urge to call you 'Clausy'. Now, is it properly (in your case) Claus or Clause? Or can I call you Clay?

Of the whole population. Not the entire population are criminals.

Hmmm... I'm still not entirely sure what you're asking with that question, then. I believe I pointed out the same fact myself.

"Safely" for whom? Why?

Safely for both of us. Because unless I or a stranger are engaged in a criminal or irresponsible act, then I have no need to take note of what they are doing. Personal responsibility requires me to make note of their position and situation with regards to my own current set of actions - for example, no driving down sidewalks or using high explosives on playgrounds. Otherwise, they can be safely ignored.

What about those who give money for drugs?

As I mentioned before, the case of those possessing illegal items is one that I find difficult to address. Since the act of providing money to drug dealers promotes the sale of drugs, buying drugs would have to be a crime. I think... and I'm still considering this - those who buy drugs would first be given the appropriate tox-screening to see if they're a user, or just a retailer. If a user, mandatory incarceration in a drug rehabilitation facility, with a full plan to return the person to society in a useful manner once they are fully rehabilitated from their physical and psychological need to buy drugs. Retailer = drug dealer, so death.

It is not up to me to prove you wrong.

Of course not. And I'm allowing that I might be wrong. But if you choose to definitively state that I am wrong, which I already admit may be true, the burden shifts in very subtle fashion to you, as you are now making a definitive claim.

Now, you didn't actually make said claim - you said 'seems likely'. So the burden of proof lays with me still. But since I'm also allowing that I might be wrong, the burden is a light one.

Who would monitor you? Does this 24/7 surveillance apply to each and every individual in society?

And here we come to the true problem with the Big Brother scenario that people fear will come true - who watches? If 24/7 surveillance were desirable for every person on Earth, then every person on Earth would be employed watching someone, probably in shifts, and probably watching more than one person at a time - which would decrease the chance of noticing what someone they were monitoring was doing. The logistics of such constant monitoring are simply staggering.

However, a more feasible solution - monitoring people who are already suspected of being engaged in some illegal activity - seems far more logistically possible and practical, and certainly acceptable. But there are so many crimes that will go uncaught because so many first-time criminal behaviors will be missed.

Whatever, though - I was simply saying that I wouldn't object to a scenario like that in exchange for reduced criminal activity. I wasn't saying that such a scenario was possible or practical.

The general public. Facing the fascism in Germany and Italy.

Since 'the general public' included many different types of people in many different walks of life, and 'the fascism' itself includes a variety of actions and behaviors, the question itself is too broad and general. I'm not familiar with everything that happened in Italy, except that, apparently, the people were sufficiently upset to execute Mussolini by their own hands. Presumably, some aspect of his fascist government had a deeply negative affect on everyone.

As to Germany, I'm not deeply familiar with the goings-on as they relate to 'the general public'. I know how the minority populations felt, and the fear and suffering that those sympathetic to the minorities experiecned. However, I've also read cases and stories of some Germans who did not suffer, and who were not afraid, under Nazi Germany. Of course, we can always just assume that they were bigotted fascists too, but assumptions can get us into trouble. But as I understand it, as long as you weren't a targetted minority (or sympathetic to them), and as long as you toed the line and obeyed the rules, life in Nazi Germany was certainly safe and relatively pleasant. If we removed the government's hatred of minorities, I think most of the population would have felt safe (except for the fear of the reaction of the rest of the world to the government's policy of aggressive expansionism).

However, this illustrates one glaringly huge problem with any totalitarian regime: the fact that, once control is in place, it's a quick slide to the powers-that-be to begin implementing biased policies against minority groups. While I think racism is slowly dying out, in a nation with total government control, it wouldn't be hard for racism to be reborn and embraced fanatically. Any minority, in fact, becomes a potential target during times of totalitarian rule. Today, it might be the Maori, the smokers, and the vegisexuals standing in line at the death camps for the crime of being arrogant islanders, causing second-hand smoke-related assaults, and being perverters of foodstuffs, in that order. And in a truly totalitarian regime, the minorities have almost no power to defend themselves.

Then, of course, there's the renegades. Every government, no matter how beneficial, or totalitarian, or evil, or permissive, results in groups of renegades causing problems for everyone else. If the government is perceived as evil, the renegades are 'freedom fighters'; if the government is perceived as good, the renegades are 'terrorists'. In a totalitarian government, the renegades are even more likely to be active against government targets, and might well have the support of the disgruntled population, if any segment of that population feels it is being treated unfairly. In turn, this would necessarily result in heavy-handed strong-arm tactics by the government to oppress opposition (necessary, you see, to maintain peace), resulting in turn to public empathy with the renegades (in spite of any attempts at propaganda). Nasty business, that.

So as long as people in power have a tendancy to use that power to promote their personal bigotries and biases (forever), and as long as segments of any society will choose to be renegades (forever), totalitarian governments will never be stable, safe, and successful.

I don't recall who said it, but one comment concerning Communism I've always liked went something like this: Communism would be a great system, except for all the flawed people who run it.

You would breed people for the sole purpose of medical experiments, where a part of them would die?

Yes, I would. Gladly. Especially if the end results of those experiments led to life-saving procedures to spread to the rest of the population. I would also breed essentially brain-dead people for the purpose of maintaining organ banks, too. I'd clone my own body a dozen times in order to have fully compatible organs and limbs to use, with the sole stipulation that brain development would be stunted during the process (only those parts necessary for maintaining bodily health would remain functional).

Of course, the problem there is that when we choose to draw a line so that such bodies are no longer 'people', we also inadvertantly dehumanize those born naturally in similar conditions; and if we simply draw the line at natural versus artificial conception, other existing people become non-people. Maybe at the point that we develop artificial wombs... but it's almost certain such wombs would first be used by regular people before it could be used for medical cloning.

Or we could simply draw the line at intent. If your intent at conception was for the offspring to be used medically, it could cease to be treated as a person. There is already some precedent to this - if your intent was to not conceive, you can abort - sometimes even at the point of birth - and so far we haven't gone so far as to criminalize such abortions. So some precedent seems already to be set to dehumanize offspring.

Terrifying from many points of view, but feasible.

If you support abortion, why wouldn't you support the growth of medical and research subjects? I'm not saying you support abortion, mind you, C., that was a general 'you'.

Do you support abortion? Including late-term abortion?
 
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So that's the emotional justification...a subjective justification, to be sure, but given the nature of the crime it is at least a reasonably strong justification. But from a practical point of view there is a fairly strong argument too - if the death penalty did not exist, these criminals would likely be spending the rest of their life in jail. The rest of their life. And forgetting any arguments as to the quality of 'life' in prison, one has to ask the question: Why should the government, and by extension the taxpaying public, pay for the meals, lodging and healthcare of a violent criminal for the rest of his or her life? Certainly it may seem harsh to argue from an economic point of view, but all that money is money diverted from other more worthy causes than keeping a convicted criminal alive and (somewhat ironically) healthy.

That's an interesting story of how one comes to think about a topic like this. No doubt we are blissfully ignorant or only vaguely aware of some things that are critical to someone else, even in a life or death sense.

However, as to the economics, you suggest discomfort at killing to save money, but in truth it is cheaper to keep them alive. The reason is the exceptional appeal process available to death sentences as well as the special prison circumstances that they require. Add up, fairly and realistically, all the court and lawyer and other costs and they could eat Macdonalds for the rest of their lives, for a fraction of the cost.

Cost is not an issue.
 
Well, I'm certainly no expert in any field, but I'd guess they'd be the psychologists, social workers, sociologists, et. al. who have both the training and the experience to know what skills, experience, and mental profiles are attributed to positive aspects of parenting.

Way too much to jump in on here, so select a quote or two...

....but one doesn't have to expect 100% accuracy on something like this to either support or reject the principle. At present we can take away children who are physically abused or neglected. We cannot do so for those who are emotionally or intellectually neglected, and those are the ones who we eventually end up executing (or someone else does it for us), or committing to a life in prison, more often than not . It's pointless to try to write a how to manual here, but most people will know how to recognize the good from the bad when it comes to parenting (not to forget the simple little issue of what the hell they were doing becoming a parent in the first place).



Quote: CFL
What about those who give money for drugs?



As I mentioned before, the case of those possessing illegal items is one that I find difficult to address. Since the act of providing money to drug dealers promotes the sale of drugs, buying drugs would have to be a crime. I think... and I'm still considering this
Surely you don't include a little bit of weed do you? What would you have done to Clinton? Since you are still considering, in your 30's I believe, do I take it you haven't tried many of the sins yet?;)
 
That's an interesting story of how one comes to think about a topic like this. No doubt we are blissfully ignorant or only vaguely aware of some things that are critical to someone else, even in a life or death sense.

However, as to the economics, you suggest discomfort at killing to save money, but in truth it is cheaper to keep them alive. The reason is the exceptional appeal process available to death sentences as well as the special prison circumstances that they require. Add up, fairly and realistically, all the court and lawyer and other costs and they could eat Macdonalds for the rest of their lives, for a fraction of the cost.

Cost is not an issue.

Really? While I understand that appeals processes cost a lot of money, so do appeals in Australia regarding exceptionally long prison sentences (I can't speak for relative cost in America, and we don't have 'life' sentences here).
 
I can't quote the numbers, but I do recall reading studies on that. It's not really so hard to imagine though when you consider not just the lawyers (ever hear of one working cheap, when the government is obligated to pay the bills?), but the entire related court system. Food and board is really just one more inmate amongst many many thousands (and the odds are they won't make it to a ripe old age anyway).
 
Surely you don't include a little bit of weed do you? What would you have done to Clinton? Since you are still considering, in your 30's I believe, do I take it you haven't tried many of the sins yet?;)

Well, it's my opinion that either alcohol and tobacco should be illegal, or weed should be legal. Since I use both alcohol and tobacco, you can guess my position there... :D

But, no, I've never tried any illegal drug (except for underage alcohol use). Not by choice, mind you, but by simple fact that I was never exposed to it. At all.
 
Well, I'm certainly no expert in any field, but I'd guess they'd be the psychologists, social workers, sociologists, et. al. who have both the training and the experience to know what skills, experience, and mental profiles are attributed to positive aspects of parenting.

You'd "guess". That's not a very sound foundation to build such a proposal on, one that carries with it so much agony and despair. Is it?

Both excellent ideas. Make sure there's an annual recertification, and if the parents fail to recertify, the children become wards of the state, for placement with better parents as they become available. Plus random spot-checks throughout the year by the authorities, or continual monitoring....

I'm still going with the notion that you are serious.

How many children do you estimate would be forcefully removed from their parents due to this lack of "certification"? In the US.

Nor did I say that we were. There are no 'end products' in evolution. But there are superior and inferior creatures in evolution - specifically, those creatures that can master their environments and adapt to new environments, while surviving in all environments in which they choose to exists, are superior; those that are inferior, die off.

You have jumped to your own conclusions, and assumed something untrue about my state of knowledge.

To play again, please deposit twenty-five cents.

You confirm my conclusions. Your choice of words reveal your beliefs: You use words as "superior", "inferior", "master", and think survival is a choice.

And maybe whine a little, too. You're so quick to try to demonize me, that you'll deliberately misquote me - how charming.

Excuse me? Aren't you very busy - and happily - demonizing yourself?

Go ask a criminologist.

I am asking you: You were the one saying that such probability calculations are possible. How do you calculate the probability that someone might commit a crime?

Not at all. If I were trying to offend, I'd have referred to you as an obsessive half-witted Internet viking, raiding the forum to rape and pillage logic and reason while wearing an aluminum Viking cap and waving around a wooden sword yelling Nordic obscenities in a controlled whisper, so as to not offend your momma, whose basement you still live in... or something else similarly silly and moronic. 'Clausy' isn't trying.

***edited to add, no, I'm NOT calling C. any of this. It was an example of what I would do if that were my intent. Since this isn't my intent, this is only an example in the abstract. In spite of our differences of opinion and style, C., I strongly respect you and would never resort to childish attempts to offend. Please take this paragraph with the intent I stated - not as a personal attack.

You are very busy running backwards.

Yes, you're quite right - I blame Disney and that stupid Tim Allen series of movies. Point retracted, amigo.

Try living in the real world for a change.

Mockery would have a more definitive form to it. Say, if I called you 'Claws' or 'Cwossy' or 'Clawsen'. Or perhaps 'L'Arson'.

But since it bothers you so much, I'll try to restrain the urge to call you 'Clausy'. Now, is it properly (in your case) Claus or Clause? Or can I call you Clay?

Why are you so uncomfortable just calling people by their real names? Do you feel you have to distance yourself from other people?

Hmmm... I'm still not entirely sure what you're asking with that question, then. I believe I pointed out the same fact myself.

You said you lacked compassion in general. But you also said you lack compassion for those you consider criminals, yet they are the minority.

The two statements are in conflict with each other. Do you lack compassion in general, or only for the minority you want to punish in draconian ways?


Safely for both of us. Because unless I or a stranger are engaged in a criminal or irresponsible act, then I have no need to take note of what they are doing. Personal responsibility requires me to make note of their position and situation with regards to my own current set of actions - for example, no driving down sidewalks or using high explosives on playgrounds. Otherwise, they can be safely ignored.

You are now expanding the group of people you want to see punished to also include those who you think are "irresponsible". What do you mean by that?

As I mentioned before, the case of those possessing illegal items is one that I find difficult to address. Since the act of providing money to drug dealers promotes the sale of drugs, buying drugs would have to be a crime. I think... and I'm still considering this - those who buy drugs would first be given the appropriate tox-screening to see if they're a user, or just a retailer. If a user, mandatory incarceration in a drug rehabilitation facility, with a full plan to return the person to society in a useful manner once they are fully rehabilitated from their physical and psychological need to buy drugs. Retailer = drug dealer, so death.

I didn't ask about those who buy drugs. I asked about those who give money for drugs. They give money to someone, knowing it will be used for drugs. Do they hurt society, too?

Of course not. And I'm allowing that I might be wrong. But if you choose to definitively state that I am wrong, which I already admit may be true, the burden shifts in very subtle fashion to you, as you are now making a definitive claim.

Now, you didn't actually make said claim - you said 'seems likely'. So the burden of proof lays with me still. But since I'm also allowing that I might be wrong, the burden is a light one.

The burden most certainly does not shift to anyone but you.

And here we come to the true problem with the Big Brother scenario that people fear will come true - who watches? If 24/7 surveillance were desirable for every person on Earth, then every person on Earth would be employed watching someone, probably in shifts, and probably watching more than one person at a time - which would decrease the chance of noticing what someone they were monitoring was doing. The logistics of such constant monitoring are simply staggering.

However, a more feasible solution - monitoring people who are already suspected of being engaged in some illegal activity - seems far more logistically possible and practical, and certainly acceptable. But there are so many crimes that will go uncaught because so many first-time criminal behaviors will be missed.

Whatever, though - I was simply saying that I wouldn't object to a scenario like that in exchange for reduced criminal activity. I wasn't saying that such a scenario was possible or practical.

I had a feeling we would get to that scenario: Some people should be monitored. Just like some people should have their kids taken away from them, if they can't pass some tests.

Why would you trust someone in authority to monitor you? Do you think it is impossible that you will be targeted for persecution?

Since 'the general public' included many different types of people in many different walks of life, and 'the fascism' itself includes a variety of actions and behaviors, the question itself is too broad and general. I'm not familiar with everything that happened in Italy, except that, apparently, the people were sufficiently upset to execute Mussolini by their own hands. Presumably, some aspect of his fascist government had a deeply negative affect on everyone.

Oh, dear. "Not familiar".

Time for you to learn a bit about the fascism you think so highly of:

Fascism

Yes, take the time to read it. Click on some of the links, too. And understand what it is you are proposing.

As to Germany, I'm not deeply familiar with the goings-on as they relate to 'the general public'. I know how the minority populations felt, and the fear and suffering that those sympathetic to the minorities experiecned. However, I've also read cases and stories of some Germans who did not suffer, and who were not afraid, under Nazi Germany. Of course, we can always just assume that they were bigotted fascists too, but assumptions can get us into trouble. But as I understand it, as long as you weren't a targetted minority (or sympathetic to them), and as long as you toed the line and obeyed the rules, life in Nazi Germany was certainly safe and relatively pleasant. If we removed the government's hatred of minorities, I think most of the population would have felt safe (except for the fear of the reaction of the rest of the world to the government's policy of aggressive expansionism).

Oh, dear. "Not deeply familiar".

You really have absolutely no idea of what "fascism" is, do you? You can't dictate which parts of fascism a society should have, and leave out the parts that you discover are gauche - like the persecution of minorities that the regime doesn't like. Like the Jews and gypsies.

But that's precisely what you are advocating, when you try to set up draconic rules for parents, criminals, or anyone you personally don't like. You want a system where you dictatorically set the rules, depending on your personal preferences.

However, this illustrates one glaringly huge problem with any totalitarian regime: the fact that, once control is in place, it's a quick slide to the powers-that-be to begin implementing biased policies against minority groups. While I think racism is slowly dying out, in a nation with total government control, it wouldn't be hard for racism to be reborn and embraced fanatically. Any minority, in fact, becomes a potential target during times of totalitarian rule. Today, it might be the Maori, the smokers, and the vegisexuals standing in line at the death camps for the crime of being arrogant islanders, causing second-hand smoke-related assaults, and being perverters of foodstuffs, in that order. And in a truly totalitarian regime, the minorities have almost no power to defend themselves.

Then, of course, there's the renegades. Every government, no matter how beneficial, or totalitarian, or evil, or permissive, results in groups of renegades causing problems for everyone else. If the government is perceived as evil, the renegades are 'freedom fighters'; if the government is perceived as good, the renegades are 'terrorists'. In a totalitarian government, the renegades are even more likely to be active against government targets, and might well have the support of the disgruntled population, if any segment of that population feels it is being treated unfairly. In turn, this would necessarily result in heavy-handed strong-arm tactics by the government to oppress opposition (necessary, you see, to maintain peace), resulting in turn to public empathy with the renegades (in spite of any attempts at propaganda). Nasty business, that.

Oh, dear. No knowledge of fascism whatsoever.

Like I said, take some time off and read about how the totalitarian regimes come about. They don't slide into biased policies against minority groups, they are built on those policies from the very beginning. These regimes gain support because enough people - like yourself - find that such a discriminating society is far better than the one they live in. Their idea of solving problems is to remove what they see is the cause of the problems: It is always certain groups of people - people they themselves don't belong to.

Get out the riff-raff! Send'em to the camps! Kill'em! Let's clear out society!

So as long as people in power have a tendancy to use that power to promote their personal bigotries and biases (forever), and as long as segments of any society will choose to be renegades (forever), totalitarian governments will never be stable, safe, and successful.

I don't recall who said it, but one comment concerning Communism I've always liked went something like this: Communism would be a great system, except for all the flawed people who run it.

And, yet, given your previous recommendation of totalitarian systems, you think that our current Western democratic systems are even worse.

Yes, I would. Gladly. Especially if the end results of those experiments led to life-saving procedures to spread to the rest of the population. I would also breed essentially brain-dead people for the purpose of maintaining organ banks, too. I'd clone my own body a dozen times in order to have fully compatible organs and limbs to use, with the sole stipulation that brain development would be stunted during the process (only those parts necessary for maintaining bodily health would remain functional).

Of course, the problem there is that when we choose to draw a line so that such bodies are no longer 'people', we also inadvertantly dehumanize those born naturally in similar conditions; and if we simply draw the line at natural versus artificial conception, other existing people become non-people. Maybe at the point that we develop artificial wombs... but it's almost certain such wombs would first be used by regular people before it could be used for medical cloning.

Or we could simply draw the line at intent. If your intent at conception was for the offspring to be used medically, it could cease to be treated as a person. There is already some precedent to this - if your intent was to not conceive, you can abort - sometimes even at the point of birth - and so far we haven't gone so far as to criminalize such abortions. So some precedent seems already to be set to dehumanize offspring.

Terrifying from many points of view, but feasible.

What you are talking about, is a Brave New World/Matrix scenario. Can you, in your own words, explain what the point is of Huxley's novel?

If you support abortion, why wouldn't you support the growth of medical and research subjects? I'm not saying you support abortion, mind you, C., that was a general 'you'.

Do you support abortion? Including late-term abortion?

I naturally support abortion. Late-term abortions depend very much on the circumstances. And, of course, when "late term" is drawn.
 
You'd "guess". That's not a very sound foundation to build such a proposal on, one that carries with it so much agony and despair. Is it?

And I'm not proposing it to any group capable of enacting it. It's not like this forum is going to bring about the revolution, based on a few random posts.

I'm still going with the notion that you are serious.

How many children do you estimate would be forcefully removed from their parents due to this lack of "certification"? In the US.

Depends on what standards were set, how the certification was carried out, etc. If you're asking how many households I think are probably unworthy of having children, I couldn't begin to guess. Could be as few as 20% or as many as 80% - I really don't go prying into other people's business to see how they manage their children.

However, based solely on my personal awareness of other families, which is a sample group of about 50 or so, and assuming a decent certification process that focused on issues like maturity, knowledge of proper parenting and safety, etc... I'd guess close to half.

You confirm my conclusions. Your choice of words reveal your beliefs: You use words as "superior", "inferior", "master", and think survival is a choice.

If that's what you'd like to believe, go right ahead. If, on the other hand, you don't think humans are superior to other species on earth, please, feel free to explain why.

Excuse me? Aren't you very busy - and happily - demonizing yourself?

Well, I've always told my friends I was the devil... :p

I am asking you: You were the one saying that such probability calculations are possible. How do you calculate the probability that someone might commit a crime?

You can ask me all you want, and all I'm going to tell you is consult those who do so.

You are very busy running backwards.

If you wish to believe that, that is your right.

Try living in the real world for a change.

Actually, it's kind of funny - that particular typo is the result of my awareness of a series of movies that I've never watched. And consistent spelling errors are not something I'm generally known for (except with some words - consistent, separate, sentence - it's the choice of e or a that messes me up every time with some words).

Why are you so uncomfortable just calling people by their real names? Do you feel you have to distance yourself from other people?

Do you not call people by nicknames where you live? It's not unusual, at least in the U.S., to use nicknames for anyone and everyone. I was known as 'Wack' throughout my school years (it's hard to get a decent nickname out of Waco). My best friend was Matt or Mattie, instead of Matthew. Robert was known fondly as Rob, Robbie, or Rutman (off of his last name, Rutter). Even those we have respect for, like our teachers, had diminuitive names applied. My algebra teacher was Ms. McD. My drama teacher was Shoe (instead of Mr. Schudel).

It's just commonplace here.

In fact, it's so common in some cases that a person's actual name can remain a relative mystery. Throughout high school, we had a friend whom everyone, and I mean from the principle to the students, called 'Scooter'. Finally learned at graduation that his actual name was Edward Reynard II.

But if it bothers you so much, C., why don't you propose how you would prefer to be addressed, if at all?

You said you lacked compassion in general. But you also said you lack compassion for those you consider criminals, yet they are the minority.

As well as lacking compassion for the 'average joe'. Who does that leave? Those in distress. They, too, are the minority.

The two statements are in conflict with each other. Do you lack compassion in general, or only for the minority you want to punish in draconian ways?

See above.

You are now expanding the group of people you want to see punished to also include those who you think are "irresponsible". What do you mean by that?

You don't know what the word irresponsible means? How strange. And you use English so well, normally.

Still, dictionary.com can be your friend.

I didn't ask about those who buy drugs. I asked about those who give money for drugs. They give money to someone, knowing it will be used for drugs. Do they hurt society, too?

Ah, I misunderstood. I'm not aware that it is common to give someone money so that they can go and buy drugs, unless you're sharing the drugs with them. However, if it is known that they are fully aware of the purpose for the money that they are handing over, then they're facilitating a crime, aren't they? I believe that's usually covered under accessory charges.

But of course they're hurting society too.

Now, how to punish a facilitator? That's a very difficult question, even for our courts now.

The burden most certainly does not shift to anyone but you.

The burden is light.

I had a feeling we would get to that scenario: Some people should be monitored. Just like some people should have their kids taken away from them, if they can't pass some tests.

Can you think of a practical way to monitor everyone? I'd love to hear it.

Why would you trust someone in authority to monitor you? Do you think it is impossible that you will be targeted for persecution?

Of course not. Anyone could be targetted for persecution, given the right circumstances. But I trust those in authority on other issues, until such time as they lose my trust. Why should this be any different?

Just a quick question - you're not an anarchist, are you?

Oh, dear. "Not familiar".

Time for you to learn a bit about the fascism you think so highly of:

Fascism

Yes, take the time to read it. Click on some of the links, too. And understand what it is you are proposing.

Thanks. I'll take some time to read that.

Oh, dear. "Not deeply familiar".

You really have absolutely no idea of what "fascism" is, do you? You can't dictate which parts of fascism a society should have, and leave out the parts that you discover are gauche - like the persecution of minorities that the regime doesn't like. Like the Jews and gypsies.

But then, I wasn't promoting strict fascism, was I?

But that's precisely what you are advocating, when you try to set up draconic rules for parents, criminals, or anyone you personally don't like. You want a system where you dictatorically set the rules, depending on your personal preferences.

No, actually, I want a system where qualified experts, in alliance with the general interests of the population, set up the rules, depending on what would truly be best for society.

Oh, dear. No knowledge of fascism whatsoever.

Like I said, take some time off and read about how the totalitarian regimes come about. They don't slide into biased policies against minority groups, they are built on those policies from the very beginning. These regimes gain support because enough people - like yourself - find that such a discriminating society is far better than the one they live in. Their idea of solving problems is to remove what they see is the cause of the problems: It is always certain groups of people - people they themselves don't belong to.

Which is why I wasn't promoting strict fascism. In fact, if anything, this is a strawman you have yourself provided, which I've played along with. What I want is extremely strict justice, with a strong eye to the deterrance of crime. In fact, if you actually consider the things that I was proposing, I think you'll find that I was not the one who promoted fascism. In fact, this current discussion began when you asked if I thought those in fascist regimes felt safe. It was you, then, who started the talk of fascism.

If, on the other hand, you equate strong punishment for crimes with fascism, and with no other government system, I'd like to hear why.

Get out the riff-raff! Send'em to the camps! Kill'em! Let's clear out society!

Criminals should be treated that way. But criminal behavior spans all races, cultures, ethnicities, etc.

And, yet, given your previous recommendation of totalitarian systems, you think that our current Western democratic systems are even worse.

With regards to crime and punishment, yes. With regards to issues of equality, no.

What you are talking about, is a Brave New World/Matrix scenario. Can you, in your own words, explain what the point is of Huxley's novel?

Sadly, I've never read it. And the last time I went looking for a copy (I rarely shop on-line), our local bookstores didn't have it available.

I naturally support abortion. Late-term abortions depend very much on the circumstances. And, of course, when "late term" is drawn.

Why 'naturally'? Why do you support abortion? Do you support abortion unilaterally? What circumstances do you think should allow for a 'late term' abortion? Do you support abortions during delivery? Do you feel that a person should be free to have unprotected sex any time they like, and be allowed to destroy the life they have formed for the sake of convenience or whatever else? At what point does the killing of offspring become murder? At what point do you deem a collection of biological matter to be a person? Why? And what would the difference be, then, if instead of aborting unwanted offspring, we just whisk them off and use them for medical experimentation, organ replacements, etc? Or raised them to various ages in vats and stored them for possible future medical use?

Maybe it's time you answered a few questions yourself. But somehow, I doubt you will. You much prefer to attack people with swarms of questions on every little subject, typo, comment, etc.

Then again, you have answered the one or two questions I've seen put to you in the past.

Anyway, I'll read up on fascism via the links you provided, and I'll do some research elsewhere as well. Just note, though, that it was you that promoted fascism for me. I was promoting a strict and unforgiving system of punishments for criminals, with a strong public element to increase deterrence. If that's fascism, even without racism or other biases involved, then that's what I'm promoting; but you seem to think fascism is so much more than that, and since that seems to be the case, I wonder why you accuse me of promoting fascism, when in fact I was promoting a far harsher legal system?

Yes, I also promote the idea of people having to prove themselves worthy of other rights and freedoms. But I don't promote bias against race or gender or ethnicity or whatever.

Can there be such a thing (conceptually only; I know it could never really exist) as a benign fascist government?
 
And I'm not proposing it to any group capable of enacting it. It's not like this forum is going to bring about the revolution, based on a few random posts.

What you are proposing is completely unrealistic. Read on.

Depends on what standards were set, how the certification was carried out, etc. If you're asking how many households I think are probably unworthy of having children, I couldn't begin to guess. Could be as few as 20% or as many as 80% - I really don't go prying into other people's business to see how they manage their children.

However, based solely on my personal awareness of other families, which is a sample group of about 50 or so, and assuming a decent certification process that focused on issues like maturity, knowledge of proper parenting and safety, etc... I'd guess close to half.

Well, you are admittedly not an expert, but let's go with the lowest of your numbers: 20% of all households.

In 2002, there were about 35,705,000 households in the US with an average number of children at 1.87.

If we go with the lowest figure is 20%, we are talking about a minimum of 13,353,670 children. Over 13 million children, that you want forcefully removed from their parents, and handed over to state care.

Would you be so kind as to explain:

  • Who would pay for that?
  • How much would it cost?
  • Where would you find the personnel to take care of over 13 million children?

If that's what you'd like to believe, go right ahead. If, on the other hand, you don't think humans are superior to other species on earth, please, feel free to explain why.

We are not superior when it comes to either of our senses. We are not superior when it comes to physical strength. It takes many years before we are capable of taking care of ourselves. We have no natural protection, e.g. shields, nor are we particularly equipped with powerful weapons. No sharp claws, no horns, no poisonous glands.

In fact, we pretty much suck as a species. The one thing we do have, is our brains and intelligence.

Well, I've always told my friends I was the devil... :p

If you are demonizing yourself, you don't need to accuse me of doing it.

You can ask me all you want, and all I'm going to tell you is consult those who do so.

It was just your brain farting, then.

Actually, it's kind of funny - that particular typo is the result of my awareness of a series of movies that I've never watched. And consistent spelling errors are not something I'm generally known for (except with some words - consistent, separate, sentence - it's the choice of e or a that messes me up every time with some words).

That's nice. However, you cannot use that excuse in this case.

Do you not call people by nicknames where you live? It's not unusual, at least in the U.S., to use nicknames for anyone and everyone. I was known as 'Wack' throughout my school years (it's hard to get a decent nickname out of Waco). My best friend was Matt or Mattie, instead of Matthew. Robert was known fondly as Rob, Robbie, or Rutman (off of his last name, Rutter). Even those we have respect for, like our teachers, had diminuitive names applied. My algebra teacher was Ms. McD. My drama teacher was Shoe (instead of Mr. Schudel).

It's just commonplace here.

In fact, it's so common in some cases that a person's actual name can remain a relative mystery. Throughout high school, we had a friend whom everyone, and I mean from the principle to the students, called 'Scooter'. Finally learned at graduation that his actual name was Edward Reynard II.

But if it bothers you so much, C., why don't you propose how you would prefer to be addressed, if at all?

It isn't a question of how I would prefer to be addressed. It is a question of why you make such a big fuss over not calling people by their name.

As well as lacking compassion for the 'average joe'. Who does that leave? Those in distress. They, too, are the minority.

Ah, I see. People have to be in distress, before you can feel anything for them?

You don't know what the word irresponsible means? How strange. And you use English so well, normally.

Still, dictionary.com can be your friend.

I know what it means, I was asking what you meant by it. Would a financial transaction qualify as "irresponsible"?

Ah, I misunderstood. I'm not aware that it is common to give someone money so that they can go and buy drugs, unless you're sharing the drugs with them. However, if it is known that they are fully aware of the purpose for the money that they are handing over, then they're facilitating a crime, aren't they? I believe that's usually covered under accessory charges.

But of course they're hurting society too.

Now, how to punish a facilitator? That's a very difficult question, even for our courts now.

What do you suggest?

The burden is light.

Yes, I can imagine that you think so.

Can you think of a practical way to monitor everyone? I'd love to hear it.

It isn't a question of how you monitor everyone. It is a question of how you select those groups that are monitored.

Of course not. Anyone could be targetted for persecution, given the right circumstances. But I trust those in authority on other issues, until such time as they lose my trust. Why should this be any different?

But, by then, you would be seriously in trouble. It would be too late. Will you still, at that time, advocate such monitoring?

Just a quick question - you're not an anarchist, are you?

No.

But then, I wasn't promoting strict fascism, was I?

Yes you were. It was when you discovered that it might not be so attractive (to you) that you began making exceptions.

No, actually, I want a system where qualified experts, in alliance with the general interests of the population, set up the rules, depending on what would truly be best for society.

And you decide what the rules are, and what the general interests of the population are.

Which is why I wasn't promoting strict fascism. In fact, if anything, this is a strawman you have yourself provided, which I've played along with. What I want is extremely strict justice, with a strong eye to the deterrance of crime. In fact, if you actually consider the things that I was proposing, I think you'll find that I was not the one who promoted fascism. In fact, this current discussion began when you asked if I thought those in fascist regimes felt safe. It was you, then, who started the talk of fascism.

Wrong. The first mentioning of fascism was by CplFerro, who accurately described your political ideas as fascist.

Yes, I checked. You should make that a habit, too.

If, on the other hand, you equate strong punishment for crimes with fascism, and with no other government system, I'd like to hear why.

I don't. You are the one talking about totalitarian systems with draconian punishments for those groups you don't like.

Criminals should be treated that way. But criminal behavior spans all races, cultures, ethnicities, etc.

Equally?

With regards to crime and punishment, yes. With regards to issues of equality, no.

Why do you think you can have it both ways?

Sadly, I've never read it. And the last time I went looking for a copy (I rarely shop on-line), our local bookstores didn't have it available.

You can catch up here.

What, in your own words, is the point of Huxley's "Brave New World"?

Why 'naturally'? Why do you support abortion?

Because it is suppressive of women to ban abortion. Far too many shattered lives because of a lack of abortion.

Do you support abortion unilaterally?

Meaning?

What circumstances do you think should allow for a 'late term' abortion? Do you support abortions during delivery? Do you feel that a person should be free to have unprotected sex any time they like, and be allowed to destroy the life they have formed for the sake of convenience or whatever else?

Unprotected sex should be avoided, but protection does not guarantee no pregnancies.

Destroy the life of what?

At what point does the killing of offspring become murder? At what point do you deem a collection of biological matter to be a person? Why? And what would the difference be, then, if instead of aborting unwanted offspring, we just whisk them off and use them for medical experimentation, organ replacements, etc? Or raised them to various ages in vats and stored them for possible future medical use?

Generally, the line is drawn when the fetus can survive on its own. That line has, due to science and technology, moved, so the chance of survival is bigger at an earlier age today.

I am in agreement with what the Danish Council of Ethics advises. You can read more about it here.

Abortion is never something we should take lightly. It is always detrimental to the woman. To suggest that women should be breeding machines for medical experiments is equivalent to suggest that the medical experiments done by Nazi doctors in the death camps were acceptable.

Maybe it's time you answered a few questions yourself. But somehow, I doubt you will. You much prefer to attack people with swarms of questions on every little subject, typo, comment, etc.

Then again, you have answered the one or two questions I've seen put to you in the past.

Indeed. And, as you have seen, I have also disappointed you gravely here. Does this, in any way, restore your faith in humans, even a little bit?

Anyway, I'll read up on fascism via the links you provided, and I'll do some research elsewhere as well. Just note, though, that it was you that promoted fascism for me. I was promoting a strict and unforgiving system of punishments for criminals, with a strong public element to increase deterrence. If that's fascism, even without racism or other biases involved, then that's what I'm promoting; but you seem to think fascism is so much more than that, and since that seems to be the case, I wonder why you accuse me of promoting fascism, when in fact I was promoting a far harsher legal system?

Yes, I also promote the idea of people having to prove themselves worthy of other rights and freedoms. But I don't promote bias against race or gender or ethnicity or whatever.

Look, it is not my problem if what you propose is pure fascism. That you don't recognize it as such is only testament of your ignorance - not my attempt of portraying you as a fascist.

Can there be such a thing (conceptually only; I know it could never really exist) as a benign fascist government?

You will find a lot of answers, once you begin educating yourself about what fascism is. Hopefully, you will be horrified, when you discover just what it is you have been advocating so strongly.
 
Does anyone know of any literature I could look up (net or real-life is fine) on cost of keeping a prisoner alive for the rest of his life vs. cost of execution, factoring in appeal costs?

I'm curious to check out the data.
 
Oh, come on, we are selecting a value for human life to use in policy analysis, nothing more.

This is the mistake.
There is no " human life " in general.
There are just people.
If you give the price of USD1000000 for an human life, about whom are you talking?
 
We can cut that sentence even shorter. "Never intentionally kill another person, except ____________ (fill in the blank). You and I fill in the blank differently. Not that differently though. We both want do do the right thing.

When you start making exceptions, many people will do so, as the husband in this thread

I guess because we don't agree that is wrong. We agree that it is usually wrong. We both make exceptions. The state has the right to kill others in defense of the state. It is a right that should not be exercised lightly or unfairly.

So, if it is not wrong, people would start making justice by themselves

Due process of law.

Law has been made by humans, just you and me.
Why should a judge be allowed to send a person to death, and not you?

Here we disagree. As I say, I don't hold human life on some sort of pedestal just because it has the word "human" in front of it. Life is life. If I would kill a marauding bear who had killed people in the past and could not be rehabilitated (as best as we could determine), then I would do the same to a marauding human who had killed people in the past. Greater good, Matteo.

I do not see how this can not be called just revenge.

I'm just saying that IF this were the case, you might not agree that it is always better not to kill a human intentionally. I tried as best as I could to make it clear that it was hypothetical, tell you that you couldn't rewrite the question, and frame the question in a way that you would answer it instead of challenging the question. I see I was unsuccessful.

My point is to illustrate that we all draw lines about when it is acceptable to kill. A small change in a situation could shift a case from one side of the line to another. The same person you wouldn't execute, you might kill in self-defense, even if you knew he was only going to cut off your hand. In my opinion, you would be justified to do so.

I am pointing at the fact, that you have choosen a fantascientic example, with no connections with reality
 
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Depends how you look at it. The many thousands of families who can thank him for creating a good living for them, and the millions of people who benefit from the billions he provides for worthwhile causes, would probably say it is worth more, in the cause of the common good.

" Common Good " are the words used by politicians, to start wars and raise taxes
 
So, if it is not wrong, people would start making justice by themselves.
No, they make choices. Whether or not those choices are "just" is a matter for debate. However, you agree (in debate) that sometimes the choice to kill is just.

Law has been made by humans, just you and me.
Why should a judge be allowed to send a person to death, and not you?
Because that is one of the fundamental things about how our society works. We agree to select certain people make decisions and abide by their decisions. However, few if any murder cases are decided by a single judge. They have juries, lawyers etc. Agree or disagree with their decisions, but this is how we define "justice".

I do not see how this can not be called just revenge.
I am surprised that you cannot see this. Revenge has nothing to do with "greater good". Judicious, application of the death penalty does. There is a world of difference.

I am pointing at the fact, that you have choosen a fantascientic example, with no connections with reality
That is odd that you would object to that, considering that the your whole argument in the opening post is based on a completely fabricated scenario which has no connection with reality. Why do you get to do it but not me? However, the scenarios in reality are occasionally more bizarre than the ones we've concocted. So just humor me and answer the question. I'll try to respond by granting you the same kindness.
" Common Good " are the words used by politicians, to start wars and raise taxes
I agree that it is often misused. I think that the concept still has validity. Do you disagree?
 
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