Death penalty is wrong, this is why..

[Elind]

Climate influences murder rate?
You mean, people living in hot weather countries, are more prone to kill than people living in cold weather countries?
Or the other way around?
Please, I am waiting for your explanation..

The USA is unique on the planet in terms of its ethnic and cultural makeup, not to mention size and space and income per capita. I'm sure we can write pages on the differences. It is pretty self evident that these factors are significant and people write books about them.

It may also be noteworthy that such crime rates are increasing in many of the countries you list as being much better. The reasons could be the subject of another thread, but I'm not going to do it.

 

[Matteo Martini]

The USA is unique on the planet in terms of its ethnic and cultural makeup, not to mention size and space and income per capita. I'm sure we can write pages on the differences. It is pretty self evident that these factors are significant and people write books about them.

Every country is unique in the planet.
Income per capita, is not so different from Western Europe.
Size, if you mean, geographical size, I can not see what this has to do with the crime rate..
If by " ethnical makeup ", you talk about immigration, you can have a look to how many Africans are living in Paris, or, how many Turks in Germany..

It may also be noteworthy that such crime rates are increasing in many of the countries you list as being much better. The reasons could be the subject of another thread, but I'm not going to do it.

I did not list any country with better crime rates than the US.
The countries I have listed were from the worst ( in terms of crime rate ), that is Colombia, down to the US.
And, I have not seen any evidence that the countries with better crime rates than the US ( not listed by me ), are getting any worse..

 

[Elind]

Every country is unique in the planet.
Income per capita, is not so different from Western Europe.
Size, if you mean, geographical size, I can not see what this has to do with the crime rate..
If by " ethnical makeup ", you talk about immigration, you can have a look to how many Africans are living in Paris, or, how many Turks in Germany..

Have you ever lived in the US? Just curious because it sounds a bit like you know it from census stats.

I did not list any country with better crime rates than the US.
The countries I have listed were from the worst ( in terms of crime rate ), that is Colombia, down to the US.
And, I have not seen any evidence that the countries with better crime rates than the US ( not listed by me ), are getting any worse..

My mistake. I had a thought in my mind and went with it, being that murder rates are much lower in the other Western countries. I do believe they are increasing, but I'm not going to research that now. One simple illustration is that when I lived in the UK years ago, the police were all unarmed except for what you might call "swat" teams. Now they are well armed. As to their immigration rates, yes that probably is a significant factor, except that their particular immigration trends are less ethnically diverse than the US (although Mexico is trying hard to change that).

 

[Matteo Martini]

Have you ever lived in the US? Just curious because it sounds a bit like you know it from census stats.

Yes I have lived in the US, and in about 5 or 6 other countries ( living = staying for more than three months )
I can tell you, every country is different.
Now, have you ever lived in many countries outside the US?

My mistake. I had a thought in my mind and went with it, being that murder rates are much lower in the other Western countries. I do believe they are increasing, but I'm not going to research that now. One simple illustration is that when I lived in the UK years ago, the police were all unarmed except for what you might call "swat" teams. Now they are well armed. As to their immigration rates, yes that probably is a significant factor, except that their particular immigration trends are less ethnically diverse than the US (although Mexico is trying hard to change that).

I see the OK police change fron non-armed to armed hardly as a prove of anything.
I can tell you that immigration, in many many countries, is seen as the main source of criminality, for example, here in Japan.
Many Japanese blame gaikokujin ( that is, foreigners, American, British, Italians, French, Chinese, .. ), for many crimes ( and for importing diseases, being too noisy, going with Japanese girls, having dropped the bombs in 1945 - the Americans, and so on, .. ).
But I have read in one authoritative magazine the statistics that foreigners ( per 100000 people ) perform less crimes than Japanese nationals ( per 100000 people )

 

[RandFan]

There can be no " sense of proportionality " in killings, IMHO.

I can respect your opinion. I just don't agree.

If a person has killed 10 ( innocent ) persons, and you send him to die, do you have reached anything good?

Yes.

Instead of ten person murdered, you will have eleven. Not a big moral result, IMHO.

See above.

If you want to avoid him killing again, send him to prison for the rest of his life.

This was not part of my argument in the last post.

 

[Elind]

Yes I have lived in the US, and in about 5 or 6 other countries ( living = staying for more than three months )
I can tell you, every country is different.
Now, have you ever lived in many countries outside the US?

You sound like a tourist, but I appreciate the honest qualification. Live means work, pay taxes, find a home, buy a mattress and much more.

Yes, I've lived in, according to my definition, 8 I think. Maybe 16 according to your definition, and who knows how many as a real tourist. One of those was admittedly when supported by my parents.

I see the OK police change fron non-armed to armed hardly as a prove of anything.

The British think it means a hell of a lot. I'll take their opinion before yours on that.

I can tell you that immigration, in many many countries, is seen as the main source of criminality, for example, here in Japan.
Many Japanese blame gaikokujin ( that is, foreigners, American, British, Italians, French, Chinese, .. ), for many crimes ( and for importing diseases, being too noisy, going with Japanese girls, having dropped the bombs in 1945 - the Americans, and so on, .. ).
But I have read in one authoritative magazine the statistics that foreigners ( per 100000 people ) perform less crimes than Japanese nationals ( per 100000 people )

Japan is different too, as one of the most homogeneous societies, still, on the planet. Not a good comparison to make, to prove any point.

 

[Matteo Martini]

You sound like a tourist, but I appreciate the honest qualification. Live means work, pay taxes, find a home, buy a mattress and much more.

So, I have to come to the US, pay taxes there, in order to be qualified to talk?

The British think it means a hell of a lot. I'll take their opinion before yours on that.

Which authority do you have, to speak in behalf of the British population?

Japan is different too, as one of the most homogeneous societies, still, on the planet. Not a good comparison to make, to prove any point.

Proving my point.
Every country is different.

 

[Matteo Martini]

I can respect your opinion. I just don't agree.

Yes.

See above.

Above, where?
Where is the explanation that explanation that sending that guy Rader to death you have reached anything good?

 

[RandFan]

Where is the explanation that explanation that sending that guy Rader to death you have reached anything good?

Define "good"? I'm not being obtuse here. I mean that seriously. What do you mean by "good"?

 

[Matteo Martini]

Yes, I've lived in, according to my definition, 8 I think.

Wow!!
You have " work, pay taxes, find a home, buy a mattress and much more " in eight different countries??
Congratulations..

 

[Bob Klase]

There is another point.
It had happened that killers, close to being caught, have killed other people as they knew that, being caught, they would have been sent to death.
So, using the thought, killing or not killing, I will be sent to death anyway, they may be willing to try everything they can to escape, even if this involves killing other 5-10 people..
No, the same does not exactly work this way for life in prison, as spending the life in prison is very bad, but, thinking that you will be killed by the state, has a higher emotional impact ( IMHO )

That still works both ways? Killers close to being caught usually kill other people attempting to avoid capture.

Has it also happened that killers, close to being caught, have killed other people as they knew that, being caught, they would have been given life in prison?. So, using the thought, killing or not killing, I will be get a life sentence anyway, they may be willing to try everything they can to escape, even if this involves killing other 5-10 people.

No, the same does not exactly work this way for life in prison, as spending the life in prison is very bad

But it does work exactly the same way. They've already killed and they're facing the maximum penalty (whether it's life or a death sentence).

spending the life in prison is very bad, but, thinking that you will be killed by the state, has a higher emotional impact

Hank Earl Carr killed several police in Florida about 10 years ago. He was interviewed by a local radio station over the phone as he held a hostage in a gas station and he said that he would not go back to prison (also mentioned the bad food there). Not long after that he killed himself. Apparently life in prison held the higher emotional impact for him.

You are making claims on the basis that you like them (or believe them, or just want them to be true).

 

[Matteo Martini]

Define "good"? I'm not being obtuse here. I mean that seriously. What do you mean by "good"?

Define " good " or " bad "..
I will try..
Killing an innocent person, raping a girl, stealing from markets, smuggling cocaine, that is bad..
Helping old ladies cross the street, that is good.. ( just examples, though )

 

[Matteo Martini]

That still works both ways? Killers close to being caught usually kill other people attempting to avoid capture.

Has it also happened that killers, close to being caught, have killed other people as they knew that, being caught, they would have been given life in prison?. So, using the thought, killing or not killing, I will be get a life sentence anyway, they may be willing to try everything they can to escape, even if this involves killing other 5-10 people.

I was trying to make the point that, maybe, trying to escape death, can be more compelling than trying to escape life in prison ( just my opinion )

Hank Earl Carr killed several police in Florida about 10 years ago. He was interviewed by a local radio station over the phone as he held a hostage in a gas station and he said that he would not go back to prison (also mentioned the bad food there). Not long after that he killed himself. Apparently life in prison held the higher emotional impact for him.

You are making claims on the basis that you like them (or believe them, or just want them to be true).

I am making my claim, on the basis that most people, I assume, if they have to choose between life in prison or death, they would choose life in prison.

 

[RandFan]

Define " good " or " bad "..
I will try..
Killing an innocent person, raping a girl, stealing from markets, smuggling cocaine, that is bad..
Helping old ladies cross the street, that is good.. ( just examples, though )

Thanks but it doesn't quite cut it.

You say the death penlty does no good. I disagree. I think it does do good. I think Justice is a "good" in and of itself. I just don't know if you think it is good. I don't think the victims of BTK have recieved justice. The guy tortured children. He made the children watch while he murderd and rapped their parents. Then he tortured them. Then he brutally killed those children. Sending him to prison is a very cruel insult. He can take drugs and have sex and find pleasure in his world all at the expense of those he offended.

Still, I remain opposed to the death penalty even though I do think justice in the case of BTK calls for his death.

Sometimes there are just no easy answers.

 

[Matteo Martini]

Thanks but it doesn't quite cut it.

You say the death penlty does no good. I disagree. I think it does do good. I think Justice is a "good" in and of itself. I just don't know if you think it is good. I don't think the victims of BTK have recieved justice. The guy tortured children. He made the children watch while he murderd and rapped their parents. Then he tortured them. Then he brutally killed those children. Sending him to prison is a very cruel insult. He can take drugs and have sex and find pleasure in his world all at the expense of those he offended.

Still, I remain opposed to the death penalty even though I do think justice in the case of BTK calls for his death.

Sometimes there are just no easy answers.

Now, the point is that you can make a law for any particular case.
You have picked maybe the worst ( or, some of the worst ) cases, in criminal history, to prove your point.
That is not 100% fair, in my opinion.
How many people who were sent to death, did what this guy did?
Anoher point, even with this guy, you can send him to prison, and be sure he can not have sex, can not use drugs. etc.
Prevent him to have a pleasurable life, does not necessarily mean to send him to die

 

[Bob Klase]

I am making my claim, on the basis that most people, I assume, if they have to choose between life in prison or death, they would choose life in prison.

Making claims that are just not true and making claims based on assumptions that aren't known to be true (and then stating them as facts) would seem to indicate a lack of enough information to have a valid opinion on the subject.

 

[RandFan]

You have picked maybe the worst ( or, some of the worst ) cases, in criminal history, to prove your point.

What is my point?

How many people who were sent to death, did what this guy did?

I'm not sure you know what my point is.

Anoher point, even with this guy, you can send him to prison, and be sure he can not have sex, can not use drugs. etc.

Prevent him to have a pleasurable life, does not necessarily mean to send him to die

Is this realistic?

 

[Bob Klase]

Now, the point is that you can make a law for any particular case.
You have picked maybe the worst ( or, some of the worst ) cases, in criminal history, to prove your point.
That is not 100% fair, in my opinion.

And yet that's exactly what you did in the opening post of this thread. Was it not 100% fair then?

 

[Matteo Martini]

Making claims that are just not true and making claims based on assumptions that aren't known to be true (and then stating them as facts) would seem to indicate a lack of enough information to have a valid opinion on the subject.

Usually, when people in the death row, close to be executed, see their sentence changed to life in prison, they cry of joy:
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/columnists/bob_ray_sanders/story/220727.html
I have yet to see an inmate protest, to have life in prison changed to death sentence

 

[Matteo Martini]

What is my point?

I'm not sure you know what my point is.

You wrote:
You say the death penlty does no good. I disagree

I assume your point is that death penalty does, indeed, something good.

Is this realistic?

You can prevent inmates from having sex and using drugs, if you want.
You can having inmates living in partial isolation, with limited access to contact with other inmates.