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Dawkins put on spot.

I suppose we should compose a FAQ. (CFL?)

Anyhow, just for the heck of it:

Debunking the "impossible eye evolution" argument.

Eyes, being delicate and perishable structures, are not well represented in the fossil record, so it is really not possible to document the evolution of this organ that way, but we don't need that to falsify the claim:

"The eye, with its many interdependent functions could not have come to existence through the essentially random process that evolution is claimed to be."

The claim presumes that an eye is only useful if it is complete with lids, lens, iris, retina, focus and light compensation and directional control. Thus, it is claimed that only if such a complete organ were to appear in one mutation, would it have been beneficial to the life-for aquireing it, and be selected in evolution.

Consequently, the claim can be falsified by showing that individual components of sight organs can appear and be beneficial, and for this we do not need to refer to the fossil record:

The most primitive sight organs we observe on extant life-forms are single light sensitive cells in the skin of certain flat-worms and other primitive non-vertebrates. These simple organs enable the creatures to distinguish between night and day, to determine if they are out in the open (and thus open to predators) and perhaps even to detect sudden changes on light that may indicate the presense of a predator. In other words, such an organ is beneficial.

Studying extant creatures, we can follow the entire development from these proto-eyes, over patches of sight-cells, cell-groups with primitive fixed lenses, lidless eyes, unmoving eyes, all the way to the complex sight organ of mammals and other highly evolved vertebrates.

On every single step, we can show how a single factor is added to an existing organ and is beneficial by improving it.

Hans
 
Many YEC's will, when confronted by the examples in nature of partial eyes, retreat to the argument that "These are eyes that already exist! That isn't a demonstration of how our eyes came to be!"
Which of course, is a slightly different argument. One involving a lack of fossilized eyes. Best in that case to remind our hypothetical YEC that the original argument was that a partial eye is impossible, which is demonstratably false.

(Ratman jumping ahead in the argument...:D )
 
The eye also has some flaws in it as far as intelligent design goes.

The blood vessels that serve the retina are between the retina and the pupil. So there are all these like arteries and viens in front of the retina, that block ans spoil the view. In fact you can learn how to see all this crap that is in your visual field. So it is a contingent design instead of an intelligent design.
The eye gets structured by the folding memebranes of the developing human. The folding of the external membrane of the fetus causes the placement of the blood vessels. Surely god could have changed that so the blood vessels would be behind the retina.
And while gods was at it he could have given us UV protection for our eyes so we don't get cataracts and a better immune systems. Say why did god make disease and bacteria and viruses?
 
Dancing David said:
The eye also has some flaws in it as far as intelligent design goes.

The blood vessels that serve the retina are between the retina and the pupil. So there are all these like arteries and viens in front of the retina, that block ans spoil the view. In fact you can learn how to see all this crap that is in your visual field. So it is a contingent design instead of an intelligent design.
The eye gets structured by the folding memebranes of the developing human. The folding of the external membrane of the fetus causes the placement of the blood vessels. Surely god could have changed that so the blood vessels would be behind the retina.
And while gods was at it he could have given us UV protection for our eyes so we don't get cataracts and a better immune systems. Say why did god make disease and bacteria and viruses?

Not only the blood vessels, but the nerves that carry the information from the sensitive cells to the brain, are in front of those cells, partially blocking the light. Worse, since those nerves must go out of the eye, they are united and leave the eye by the same spot, creating a blind region.
It's interesting to notice that octopusses have eyes without those drawbacks. I wonder why did god provide a mollusc with better designed eyes than those of the top of his creation.
 
SGT said:


Not only the blood vessels, but the nerves that carry the information from the sensitive cells to the brain, are in front of those cells, partially blocking the light. Worse, since those nerves must go out of the eye, they are united and leave the eye by the same spot, creating a blind region.
It's interesting to notice that octopusses have eyes without those drawbacks. I wonder why did god provide a mollusc with better designed eyes than those of the top of his creation.

I've asked those young earth creationists that on chat and their reply is invariably: "I don't know! You can ask God when you meet him!!!"

Then the subject mysteriously changes and I introduce the speculation that the whole Jesus thing was a prank played by Loki and won't Odin be PO'd that so many fell for it. :D
 
andycal said:
He kinda just smiled. And then he decided we should begin a debate on how the eye fits in with evolution... oh boy...

Oh boy indeed. Defeat is never easy to admit...

andycal said:
Any pointers welcome... I beleive this was a Darwin thing.

We can hope that he will go the way of the Dodo... :)

andycal said:
It's a bit unfair you know. They've got just one book to read, I'm going to have to burn through all my Dawkins books to bone up on everything!

Yes, you are right: It is unfair. However, you have the advantage of the huge body of factual evidence. Sure, it takes some time digging up the right retorts. But you can sleep comfortable, knowing that they are there.

Or, ask here...
 
Silence in the face of some of these questions is perceived as "inability to answer."

But in my experience it's more a matter of buying time when the only response running through one's head is "Are you really THAT effing stupid?"
 
SGT said:

It's interesting to notice that octopusses have eyes without those drawbacks. I wonder why did god provide a mollusc with better designed eyes than those of the top of his creation.

The eight legged ones lack spinhe but they are the Chosen Ones!
 
If your friend insists that partial vision is useless, bring up this guy:

http://www.slu.edu/readstory/homepage/1233

He has electrodes floating over his brain, cables coming from his head Matrix style and has to wear a pack on his waist. Not only that but the electrodes gave him seizures when he turned them up so high. And this is what he gets:

"Patients don't have "normal" vision." Instead, they see white flashes of light that resemble stars on a black background, and learn to interpret the patterns so they can gain mobility.

"By putting an array of electrodes in the brain, patients see a pattern of white spots that they could learn to interpret well enough to get some useful vision," Smith said. "

I'd say about 10% of normal human vision, but it makes all the difference to the people who have it. Others are going to Portugal for the same treatment.
 
Zep said:
People like that are simply gentle warm-ups for most of the regular hard-core skeptics here, or nice-n-easy training cases for the newbie skeptics.
yes, but can a "hard-core skeptic" be cool? ...11s...30s...20"...
 

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