Darwinian Archaeology / Cultural Evolution

But aren't they just doing things which indirectly help them? Vampire bats share regurgitated blood, but they do it on the expectation that in future, somebody is going to help them in return. This is not genuine altruism. Instead, it is the effect of group selection. Colonies of vampire bats that behave in this way are more likely to survive than colonies who do not.
But humans are capable of altruistic acts where they get nothing in return (i.e. anonymous donations to charity).
Not really, donating to charity increases your standing in sociality. You definition of pure altruisme doesn't exist except in the form of stupidity.

The important thing is that humans will do this even if they do not know (and are not genetically related to) the people they are trying to rescue.
But still of the same species. And in the old days, the chances were larger that the one needed rescueing would be a relative.

Are they moral choices? Do you think these apes know the difference between right and wrong? All animals make choices of some sort.
Hint: Morality is based upon what is good for sociality.
 
Geoff -- you are correct, evolution theory cannot account for all human behavior. Anyone who suggests that doesn't know what they are talking about or hasn't thought it completely through.

HOWEVER, I would make the claim that it accounts for almost all of human behavior.

Here are some behaviors evolution cannot account for:

The love of beautiful music.
The love of great art.
The love of creating things.
Completely selfish acts (in a Randian sense).
The pursuit of knowledge.
 
How could it be a meme? The whole point is that altruism is not fitness-enhancing. It does not help the altruist, therefore it should not be selected for.

This is simply wrong.

Altrusim helps those around the altruist, which, in a community of altruists, ends up helping oneself.

In a community of genetically-related altruists, it also helps people with similar genes to one's own, which will also be seleted for even at the expense of the individual.

And you have to remember that human evolution took place mostly in small social groups of genetically-related indiividuals. In a tribal situation, the urge to help "people like me" meant that I was helping my near kin. Today this may no longer be the case, but the hardwired urge is still there.
 
Seeking mental stimulation, to satisfy a developed mind. In other words a side effect.

Of course it is a side effect, everything is a side effect of evolution. We wouldn't even be here talking if not for evolution.

I meant "evolution does not account for the love of beautiful art in the same way it accounts for the desire to hump our brains out."


Anything completely selfish. Like the desire to climb a mountain on your own, or make something on your own, etc. Doing anything just because you want to.
 
Thanks.

Is this knowledge of right/wrong defined in cultural terms or hard wired?

It cannot be hard wired, because that would lead not only to an absolute morality, but to agreement among humans about what is right and wrong. No such agreement exists. However, that does not prevent an individual human being from coming to their own conclusions about what is right and what is wrong and acting upon it accordingly, even if it is not in their own self-interest to do it.
 
Not really, donating to charity increases your standing in sociality.

That is why I specifically stated that I was talking about anonymous donations.

You definition of pure altruism doesn't exist except in the form of stupidity.

That is precisely the conclusion that theories of cultural evolution lead to, and which I am challenging. To take a Christian example (I am not a Christian), you are saying that Jesus was stupid to "turn the other cheek". You are stating that "eye for an eye" makes more sense.
 
Geoff -- you are correct, evolution theory cannot account for all human behavior. Anyone who suggests that doesn't know what they are talking about or hasn't thought it completely through.

HOWEVER, I would make the claim that it accounts for almost all of human behavior.

Here are some behaviors evolution cannot account for:

The love of beautiful music.
The love of great art.
The love of creating things.
Completely selfish acts (in a Randian sense).
The pursuit of knowledge.

I can agree with all of these except the fourth. Completely selfish acts can surely be accounted for by evolution. Why on earth not?
 
If you have a point, make it.

Once again, I take you off ignore to read one of your posts and end up wishing I had not. This time you appear to be responding to me, but the quote you are responding to wasn't actually mine. I never wrote the words "gibberish and drivel".

Don't bother responding to this, because you are top of my ignore list.

:(
 
Anything completely selfish. Like the desire to climb a mountain on your own, or make something on your own, etc. Doing anything just because you want to.

Oh I see. I wouldn't call that "selfish", although I see why somebody might. It's more "pointless" than "selfish". For me, "selfish" is theft, for example.

But you are right....some of these apparently purposeless acts do not have simple evolutionary explanations.
 
I meant "evolution does not account for the love of beautiful art in the same way it accounts for the desire to hump our brains out."
In the same way is meaningless.

Anything completely selfish. Like the desire to climb a mountain on your own, or make something on your own, etc. Doing anything just because you want to.
Proving ones self, good behaviour for showing yourself to the other sex.
 
That is why I specifically stated that I was talking about anonymous donations.
Anonymous to who. With most of those donations the giver will tell what he has done so several people.

That is precisely the conclusion that theories of cultural evolution lead to, and which I am challenging. To take a Christian example (I am not a Christian), you are saying that Jesus was stupid to "turn the other cheek". You are stating that "eye for an eye" makes more sense.
Appels anyone?
 
But aren't they just doing things which indirectly help them? Vampire bats share regurgitated blood, but they do it on the expectation that in future, somebody is going to help them in return. This is not genuine altruism.

Isn't this coming dangerously close to the "no true scotsman" fallacy?
 
Isn't this coming dangerously close to the "no true scotsman" fallacy?

I don't think so, no. There is a genuine difference between "altruism" defined as "doing good to your neighbour in expectation of getting something back in return" and "doing good to a total stranger with no expectation of reward or return in any form." The first isn't altruism - it's just a complicated form of self-interest.
 
So we meet again, Geoff. I hope that this time you will not simply write me off as "crazy, but logically coherent".

So you are arguing that all human altruism is the result of group selection - that deep down we carry out altruistic acts because we think there is a benefit to ourselves in the future. What about anonymous giving? Or blood donation? Do people who give blood think "I am doing this because one day I will need blood?" Is it done out of self-interest?

Relatively anonymous "altruistic" behavior in modern society is a side-effect of evolved altruism. We evolved in small groups, and therefore anyone we came across was likely to be 1.) closely related to us, and 2.) know us socially, and therefor able to reciprocate the behavior. This is why we care about what random people in the supermarket think of us, even though we are not likely to ever see them again.
 
So we meet again, Geoff. I hope that this time you will not simply write me off as "crazy, but logically coherent".

I didn't right you off as crazy, but logically coherent. I might have accused you of believing something that was crazy, but logically coherent - but that doesn't mean I think the same of you personally. The mind/body problem drives many people to hold positions that other people think are crazy.
But this has more to do with the difficulty of the problem than the craziness of the person.

Relatively anonymous "altruistic" behavior in modern society is a side-effect of evolved altruism. We evolved in small groups, and therefore anyone we came across was likely to be 1.) closely related to us, and 2.) know us socially, and therefor able to reciprocate the behavior. This is why we care about what random people in the supermarket think of us, even though we are not likely to ever see them again.

I suppose we have to agree to disagree on this one. I do not believe that people are being motivated in the same that vampire bats are motivated. I'm not sure there is any way to empirically determine who is correct.
 
I suppose we have to agree to disagree on this one. I do not believe that people are being motivated in the same that vampire bats are motivated. I'm not sure there is any way to empirically determine who is correct.

When we discover all the neurological functions necessary to completely replace folk psychology, we will probably be able to come to a more sure conclusion.
But, for the mean time, I think Occam's Razor handles this satisfactorily. Is it more likely that humans are completely unique in that we, for no logical reason, began doing behavior that often harms us, to no benefit to ourselves, or that humans evolved social behavior comparable to other animals, and that this behavior, while perfectly suited to our environments through most of our history, today results in seemingly un-beneficial behavior.
 
... In the case of Darwinian explanations for altruistic behaviour, the problem is that these theories disregard the unresolved philosophical problems regarding determinism and free will, inevitably leading to a turf war both with philosophy and almost every form of religion. Such explanations involve a brute relegation of religion to a psychological crutch or social engineering and IMHO this is a failure to provide a full philosophical, anthropological or psychological account of either altruism or religion.
Hi, I have not read through all your replies to this first post in detail, so maybe the answer to my question is there. Do you propose any possible answers to what you view as a failure of the Darwinian explantion, or is that what you are searching for via this thread?

My own view is that a proper Darwinian explanation of altruism and religion would indicate that they are not "..relegated to a psychological crutch" but are actually a "pretty damn effective" social mechanism that would have vanished a long time ago if they were not.

Actually I would like to hear your theory (theories) of what could explain what you view the Darwinian approach fails to.
 
Here is a description (about 5000 wds, or roughly 10 pages) of biological altruism from Stanford U., which is directly pertinent here.

Some key points:

Stanford said:
In evolutionary biology, an organism is said to behave altruistically when its behaviour benefits other organisms, at a cost to itself. The costs and benefits are measured in terms of reproductive fitness, or expected number of offspring. So by behaving altruistically, an organism reduces the number of offspring it is likely to produce itself, but boosts the number that other organisms are likely to produce. This biological notion of altruism is not identical to the everyday concept. In everyday parlance, an action would only be called ‘altruistic’ if it was done with the conscious intention of helping another. But in the biological sense there is no such requirement. Indeed, some of the most interesting examples of biological altruism are found among creatures that are (presumably) not capable of conscious thought at all, e.g. insects.
So there may be some disjunct between what various folks here actually mean by the term "altruism". But conscious (moral) altruism is as easily explained by Darwinian theory as any other sort. The fact that cognition is layered over it really doesn't change anything. More on this later....

Some examples of altruism in the animal kingdom which, from a biological point of view, qualify.

Stanford said:
Altruistic behaviour is common throughout the animal kingdom, particularly in species with complex social structures. For example, vampire bats regularly regurgitate blood and donate it to other members of their group who have failed to feed that night, ensuring they do not starve. In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives help in raising its young from other ‘helper’ birds, who protect the nest from predators and help to feed the fledglings. Vervet monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked. In social insect colonies (ants, wasps, bees and termites), sterile workers devote their whole lives to caring for the queen, constructing and protecting the nest, foraging for food, and tending the larvae. Such behaviour is maximally altruistic: sterile workers obviously do not leave any offspring of their own -- so have personal fitness of zero -- but their actions greatly assist the reproductive efforts of the queen.

From a Darwinian viewpoint, the existence of altruism in nature is at first sight puzzling, as Darwin himself realized. Natural selection leads us to expect animals to behave in ways that increase their own chances of survival and reproduction, not those of others. But by behaving altruistically an animal reduces its own fitness, so should be at a selective disadvantage vis-à-vis one which behaves selfishly. To see this, imagine that some members of a group of Vervet monkeys give alarm calls when they see predators, but others do not. Other things being equal, the latter will have an advantage. By selfishly refusing to give an alarm call, a monkey can reduce the chance that it will itself be attacked, while at the same time benefiting from the alarm calls of others.

So, how do we get past this "at first sight puzzling" fact of altruism? This was something that Darwin himself considered.

(Emphasis mine)
Stanford said:
The problem of altruism is intimately connected with questions about the level at which natural selection acts. If selection acts exclusively at the individual level, favouring some individual organisms over others, then altruism cannot evolve, for behaving altruistically is disadvantageous for the individual organism itself, by definition. However, it is possible that altruism may be advantageous at the group level. A group containing lots of altruists, each ready to subordinate their own selfish interests for the greater good of the group, may well have a survival advantage over a group composed mainly or exclusively of selfish organisms. A process of between-group selection may thus allow the altruistic behaviour to evolve. Within each group, altruists will be at a selective disadvantage relative to their selfish colleagues, but the fitness of the group as a whole will be enhanced by the presence of altruists. Groups composed only or mainly of selfish organisms go extinct, leaving behind groups containing altruists. In the example of the Vervet monkeys, a group containing a high proportion of alarm-calling monkeys will have a survival advantage over a group containing a lower proportion. So conceivably, the alarm-calling behaviour may evolve by between-group selection, even though within each group, individual selection favours monkeys that do not give alarm calls.

The idea that group selection might explain the evolution of altruism was first broached by Darwin himself. In The Descent of Man (1871), Darwin discussed the origin of altruistic and self-sacrificial behaviour among humans. Such behaviour is obviously disadvantageous at the individual level, as Darwin realized: “he who was ready to sacrifice his life, as many a savage has been, rather than betray his comrades, would often leave no offspring to inherit his noble nature” (p.163). Darwin then argued that self-sarcrificial behaviour, though disadvantageous for the individual ‘savage’, might be beneficial at the group level: “a tribe including many members who...were always ready to give aid to each other and sacrifice themselves for the common good, would be victorious over most other tribes; and this would be natural selection” (p.166). Darwin's suggestion is that the altruistic behaviour in question may have evolved by a process of between-group selection.

The article considers this issue in greater depth, then moves on to the question of what the OP might call "moral" rather than biological altruism, that is, altruism that is voluntary and neither reciprocal nor beneficial to kin:

Standford said:
If by ‘real’ altruism we mean altruism done with the conscious intention to help, then the vast majority of living creatures are not capable of ‘real’ altruism nor therefore of ‘real’ selfishness either. Ants and termites, for example, presumably do not have conscious intentions, hence their behaviour cannot be done with the intention of promoting their own self-interest, nor the interests of others. Thus... the contrast between ‘real’ altruism and merely apparent altruism simply does not apply to most animal species....

Human behaviour is obviously influenced by culture to a far greater extent than that of other animals, and is often the product of conscious beliefs and desires (though this does not necessarily mean that genetics has no influence).... Numerous human behaviours seem anomalous from the evolutionary point of view. Think for example of adoption. Parents who adopt children instead of having their own reduce their biological fitness, obviously, so adoption is an altruistic behaviour. But it is does not benefit kin -- for parents are generally unrelated to the infants they adopt -- and nor do the parents stand to gain much in the form of reciprocal benefits. So although kin selection and reciprocal altruism may help us understand some human behaviours, they certainly cannot be applied across the board.

Where human behaviour is concerned, the distinction between biological altruism, defined in terms of fitness consequences, and ‘real’ altruism, defined in terms of the agent's conscious intentions to help others, does make sense. (Sometimes the label ‘psychological altruism’ is used instead of ‘real’ altruism.) ....

Elliott Sober (1994) argues that, even if we accept an evolutionary approach to human behaviour, there is no particular reason to think that evolution would have made humans into egoists rather than psychological altruists. On the contrary, it is quite possible that natural selection would have favoured humans who genuinely do care about helping others, i.e. who are capable of ‘real’ or psychological altruism. Suppose there is an evolutionary advantage associated with taking good care of one's children -- a quite plausible idea. Then, parents who really do care about their childrens' welfare, i.e. who are ‘real’ altruists, will have a higher inclusive fitness, hence spread more of their genes, than parents who only pretend to care, or who do not care. Therefore, evolution may well lead ‘real’ or psychological altruism to evolve. Contrary to what is often thought, an evolutionary approach to human behaviour does not imply that humans are likely to be motivated by self-interest alone. One strategy by which ‘selfish genes’ may increase their future representation is by causing humans to be non-selfish, in the psychological sense.

I would add 2 more points.

First, in a highly social species like humans, in which many unrelated family groups share common resources, a tendency toward generalized altruism, especially toward children and pregnant women, has a selective advantage. Of course, this tendency is counterbalanced by other non-altruistic selectors, so we don't get pure altruism in humans.

Studies do show that most humans (John Gacey and Dean Corll would be notable exceptions) have a generally protective reaction to children. In fact, we have a generally positive and protective reaction toward anything that has physical features typical of small children.

Second, we must be careful to distinguish why a behavioral trait would be selected for (the evolutionary reason for a behavior's existence) and why the individual performs the behavior (the psychological reason for engaging in the behavior). These are not one and the same, but are often confused in discussions of the evolution of behavior.

As Dennett or Pinker put it (I can't recall which at the moment).... Why does a cat lick itself? Because it enjoys it. Why should there exist cats who enjoy licking themselves? Because the grooming has a selective advantage.

Same for fish who allow other cleaner-fish to groom them. Experiments have shown that these fish don't care about the cleaning, and likely aren't aware of it at all. They just like the tickling. But fish-who-enjoy-tickling evolved because of selective pressure involving the benefits of grooming.

So, the man who dives into the icy water to save some strangers' kids -- there's an evolutionary reason why he would feel the impulse to help these kids at the risk of his own life, but he need not be aware of it.

Ditto for donating to charity, stopping to help a stranded motorist change a tire, or sharing your oxygen with a fellow miner trapped in a shaft. We do it (as Dustin explained in post 4) because we feel bad if we don't. And we feel bad if we don't because our evolutionary past selected for that feeling.
 
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