Darlie Routier

[Desert Fox]

Unfortunately murder appeals are always denied. Does anyone know a case where it was simply guilty first trial, innocent at appeal? I can only think of Amanda Knox, but scores of innocent people where the first appeal is simply denied. That is when the decades start ticking.

If there is something for the defense to sink their teeth into. . . .There are about half a dozen I can think of.

 

[Planigale]

Opinions on how competent the crime scene analysis was?

Not going to comment on innocence or not. But the first thing that struck me was a small force trying to deal with too big a crime. The fact that they needed to bring in a retired officer to help process the crime scene is not reassuring. In the UK after review of mishandled investigations clear processes have been developed. A major crime team would take over the investigation, large forces might have their own smaller forces have joint teams. This ensures that the investigation has sufficient resources, and is lead by experienced officers trained in leading major investigations.

The second issue is that behavioural issues seem to have lead to early suspicion of the mother. this leads to a focus on convicting the suspect rather than investigating a crime.

The crime seems odd. Stabbing crimes like this are often associated with psychotic episodes. Losing your temper with a child is usually associated with battering or shaking. There seem to be no other obvious suspects. A random stranger attack with no similar preceding or succeeding crimes seems unlikely. In the absence of some alternative explanation I am not convinced of reasonable doubt.

 

[Planigale]

Some similarity to the Knox case. Testimony from the retired detective / crime scene consultant.
'Cron: Right. Well, I told them after the walk-through, when I came around the front, I said, “Look, we have no intruder here.”'
So an immediate assumption that it was an inside job.

 

[Desert Fox]

Not going to comment on innocence or not. But the first thing that struck me was a small force trying to deal with too big a crime. The fact that they needed to bring in a retired officer to help process the crime scene is not reassuring. In the UK after review of mishandled investigations clear processes have been developed. A major crime team would take over the investigation, large forces might have their own smaller forces have joint teams. This ensures that the investigation has sufficient resources, and is lead by experienced officers trained in leading major investigations.

The second issue is that behavioural issues seem to have lead to early suspicion of the mother. this leads to a focus on convicting the suspect rather than investigating a crime.

The crime seems odd. Stabbing crimes like this are often associated with psychotic episodes. Losing your temper with a child is usually associated with battering or shaking. There seem to be no other obvious suspects. A random stranger attack with no similar preceding or succeeding crimes seems unlikely. In the absence of some alternative explanation I am not convinced of reasonable doubt.

You seem to agree with me. I honestly don't know if she is guilty or not. I just know that it was a horribly botched case. I think it would be best in such cases for law enforcement to just admit that they screwed up.

I see that in so many cases where the police find a suspect and all they do is mold all of the evidence to fit that suspect, often discarding evidence that might lead in another direction.

My understanding is that in many jurisdictions, a cop is just told one day that they are a detective and they may or may not even get on the job training. Now, on the job training may very well just reinforce bad habits.

The job of detective and investigator needs to be turned into a true profession where there are very specific procedures to follow. This needs to include not focusing right away and looking at all the evidence. Granted, there will always be some confusing evidence but should not be just discarded.

 

[Henri McPhee]

If there is something for the defense to sink their teeth into. . . .There are about half a dozen I can think of.

There was a case on that American Unsolved Mysteries TV show the other day when a young mother had been imprisoned for life, on medical evidence that she had poisoned her first baby, who died, and then made her second baby very ill. When the show was first aired several medical experts in America, including one from Yale, said it was a rare genetic disorder which most doctors find difficult to diagnose, and they know nothing about it.

Similarly, there are some blood disorders in children which can cause bruising marks, which can put their parents in legal difficulties. It's a question of weighing the medical evidence.

I still find it extraordinary that Judge Dupree was in charge of the Jeffrey MacDonald case Grand Jury in 1975, and his 1979 trial, and the 1985 and 1992 MacDonald appeals. That was hardly impartial. Dupree was hardly likely to admit to any irregularities, or to a wrong verdict. Dupree then passed the MacDonald case on his death, to his pal Judge Fox, who followed in Dupree's footsteps. I don't think that would have happened in the UK, or in Australia, or Canada, or New Zealand.

 

[Desert Fox]

There was a case on that American Unsolved Mysteries TV show the other day when a young mother had been imprisoned for life, on medical evidence that she had poisoned her first baby, who died, and then made her second baby very ill. When the show was first aired several medical experts in America, including one from Yale, said it was a rare genetic disorder which most doctors find difficult to diagnose, and they know nothing about it.

Similarly, there are some blood disorders in children which can cause bruising marks, which can put their parents in legal difficulties. It's a question of weighing the medical evidence.

I still find it extraordinary that Judge Dupree was in charge of the Jeffrey MacDonald case Grand Jury in 1975, and his 1979 trial, and the 1985 and 1992 MacDonald appeals. That was hardly impartial. Dupree was hardly likely to admit to any irregularities, or to a wrong verdict. Dupree then passed the MacDonald case on his death, to his pal Judge Fox, who followed in Dupree's footsteps. I don't think that would have happened in the UK, or in Australia, or Canada, or New Zealand.

Look at the West Memphis Three and Judge Burnett? The US may very well keep the same judge on the case for multiple appeals as well.

Edit: With regards to the medical case. . . I believe it was Patricia Stallings

 

[Henri McPhee]

Look at the West Memphis Three and Judge Burnett? The US may very well keep the same judge on the case for multiple appeals as well.

Edit: With regards to the medical case. . . I believe it was Patricia Stallings

That's right, it was the Patricia Stallings case. There seem to be several crime and murder shows on American TV. Most of them seem to be horrible murders of women who have murdered their husbands for life assurance money. Now and again there are some interesting miscarriage of justice cases.

The background to that Patricia Stallings case can be found out at this website:

www.law.northwestern.edu/legalclinic/wrongfulconvictions/exonerations/mo/patricia-stallings.html

 

[Desert Fox]

That's right, it was the Patricia Stallings case. There seem to be several crime and murder shows on American TV. Most of them seem to be horrible murders of women who have murdered their husbands for life assurance money. Now and again there are some interesting miscarriage of justice cases.

The background to that Patricia Stallings case can be found out at this website:

www.law.northwestern.edu/legalclinic/wrongfulconvictions/exonerations/mo/patricia-stallings.html

You do have to wonder if many of those poisonings where the wife gets blamed are real or not. . . . Granted some seem pretty iron clad.

 

[Sinsaint]

You do have to wonder if many of those poisonings where the wife gets blamed are real or not. . . . Granted some seem pretty iron clad.

Cynthia Sommer comes to mind.

 

[Samson]

There was a case on that American Unsolved Mysteries TV show the other day when a young mother had been imprisoned for life, on medical evidence that she had poisoned her first baby, who died, and then made her second baby very ill. When the show was first aired several medical experts in America, including one from Yale, said it was a rare genetic disorder which most doctors find difficult to diagnose, and they know nothing about it.

Similarly, there are some blood disorders in children which can cause bruising marks, which can put their parents in legal difficulties. It's a question of weighing the medical evidence.

I still find it extraordinary that Judge Dupree was in charge of the Jeffrey MacDonald case Grand Jury in 1975, and his 1979 trial, and the 1985 and 1992 MacDonald appeals. That was hardly impartial. Dupree was hardly likely to admit to any irregularities, or to a wrong verdict. Dupree then passed the MacDonald case on his death, to his pal Judge Fox, who followed in Dupree's footsteps. I don't think that would have happened in the UK, or in Australia, or Canada, or New Zealand.

The last hanging in New Zealand was after a trial and appeal were adjudged by one man, Sir Kenneth Gresson. The man, Walter James Bolton, was innocent.

 

[Desert Fox]

Cynthia Sommer comes to mind.

I think I remember hearing about the case. . . .Have you also noticed that no matter how you act after a death that it is always wrong to the cops?

 

[Sinsaint]

I think I remember hearing about the case. . . .Have you also noticed that no matter how you act after a death that it is always wrong to the cops?

Yep. If you read lead detective Patterson's testimony (pre-trial... He didn't testify at the trial) he described Darlie's behavior in the hospital as crying, upset, emotional, scared but then said she wasn't acting normal. He also knew when he questioned her she had just come out of surgery 30 minutes prior but never asked her doctors what type of medications she was given or the effects of said medication. He further admitted he had never investigated a case where a mother had two children murdered and herself attacked. He was still somehow able to determine her behavior was abnormal.

 

[KatieG]

While I believe Darlie killed her sons, I think the whole situation was handled very poorly from the beginning. I do not believe in the death penalty so it would be a serious miscarriage of justice if she is executed.

 

[Desert Fox]

While I believe Darlie killed her sons, I think the whole situation was handled very poorly from the beginning. I do not believe in the death penalty so it would be a serious miscarriage of justice if she is executed.

I am honestly in the "I don't know" category for her guilt. The argument that a jury convicted her also holds no value to me.

 

[desmirelle]

While I believe Darlie killed her sons, I think the whole situation was handled very poorly from the beginning. I do not believe in the death penalty so it would be a serious miscarriage of justice if she is executed.

I believe she did it as well. And the death penalty is quite appropriate and will be more humane than the execution she gave her two eldest.

 

[Desert Fox]

I believe she did it as well. And the death penalty is quite appropriate and will be more humane than the execution she gave her two eldest.

I believe is not the standard. . . .The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt.

Beside you just showed where the US legal system fails and where you fail - the legal system should not be about vengeance.

 

[desmirelle]

I believe is not the standard. . . .The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt.

Beside you just showed where the US legal system fails and where you fail - the legal system should not be about vengeance.

I believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Darlie Routier murdered her eldest two boys. That should satisfy you.

"Revenge is an act of passion; vengeance of justice." - Samuel Johnson

Vengeance, noun, The avenging of a wrong or injury. That's the definition he's using and the one I agree with. In that definition, vengeance is what the entire penal system is about, whether we're discussing robbery, vandalism or murder. It's a punishment for wrongs and injuries done to people or society.

 

[Desert Fox]

I believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Darlie Routier murdered her eldest two boys. That should satisfy you.

"Revenge is an act of passion; vengeance of justice." - Samuel Johnson

Vengeance, noun, The avenging of a wrong or injury. That's the definition he's using and the one I agree with. In that definition, vengeance is what the entire penal system is about, whether we're discussing robbery, vandalism or murder. It's a punishment for wrongs and injuries done to people or society.

Plenty of countries have much lower crime rates and their legal system is about rehabilitation. Who gains by vengeance anyway? Can you bring the childrens lives back in that manner?

 

[Samson]

Plenty of countries have much lower crime rates and their legal system is about rehabilitation. Who gains by vengeance anyway? Can you bring the childrens lives back in that manner?

Desert Fox, you seem a progressive humanist.
The Darlie Routier case is a dichotomy. If she did the killing we should try to understand how women manage domestic stress, and of course not annihilate a relevant case study.
On the other hand she may well be innocent. Sinsaint believes so, Charlie Wilkes not.
I suspect it was a home invasion.
How do we deal with this conundrum?
The courts are an abject failure, so let us imagine a community that can gather round a "camp fire" and let everyone ask Darlie a question.

 

[Desert Fox]

Desert Fox, you seem a progressive humanist.
The Darlie Routier case is a dichotomy. If she did the killing we should try to understand how women manage domestic stress, and of course not annihilate a relevant case study.
On the other hand she may well be innocent. Sinsaint believes so, Charlie Wilkes not.
I suspect it was a home invasion.
How do we deal with this conundrum?
The courts are an abject failure, so let us imagine a community that can gather round a "camp fire" and let everyone ask Darlie a question.

I probably fit fairly well into the progressive humanist label. I may not fit well into the international labeling because I am a much stronger advocate of free speech than one might get in Europe. In addition, I am a gun owner and I do like to shoot.

I might lean 60/40 that she did it. The problem is that even if she is innocent, asking her question does little good because of the way human memory works. It has been written over so many times by this time that it is remembering a remembered memory.