Dark matter and Dark energy

Just as an example: there are four fundamental equations describing E&M, called Maxwell's equations. The first one is known as Gauss' law. Most people learn (and probably quickly forget) about it in high school physics when they're 16 or 17, and if they go on in physics it figures in nearly every course after, including in a major part of the first year intro course, a semester or year as a junior in college, a semester or year as a Ph.D. student, plus it's mentioned and used often in nearly every other physics course. It's absolutely basic. And yet, BAC didn't know what it was, and didn't know it was one of Maxwell's equations (I can dig up the posts if necessary). That proves that he has absolutely no idea what he is talking about - zero. It's like arguing over Chomsky's contributions to linguistics without knowing what a word is.

That's one of the reasons I stopped replying to BAC months ago. It was impossible to convince him of anything with scientific arguments because he didn't know the first thing about plasma physics himself. Trying to respond to his kilometric posts took a lot of time, and it was time wasted.

The other reason was that he kept using as references sites that not only propose the electrical universe, but also 'prove' quantum mechanics and even special relativity are wrong. If we can't even agree on SR, I don't know what we are doing discussing cosmology.
 
I'm glad, but for some of us it's actually pretty frustrating. It's not a real debate, because the EU stuff is total gibberish.
Yes and BAC along with the other EU groupies here have pretty much admitted that their views are unfalsafiable. That isn't science, it's religion.
 
I am wondering if we can't use inferometry on multiple browsers to detect dark postings?

We better stop. This levity does not sit well with dark matters.

I'm glad, but for some of us it's actually pretty frustrating. It's not a real debate, because the EU stuff is total gibberish.

That is the sort of unscientific rhetoric that simply doesn't do anything, except maybe make you feel better.

The predictions about Deep Impact, the predictions about magnetic lines connecting the earth with the sun, the explanation of solar particle acceleration, the theory about coronal heating, x-rays in comet tails, there are a lot of interesting things the EU people bring up.

Granted the sun being powered by electricity is far fetched, but it isn't ALL gibberish.
 
Hey wait, this is the DM/DE topic. Take that EU stuff back to the Thunderbolts topic.

I just realized there has been little discussion of Dark Energy. Why is that?
 
How do two spatially separated bodies which are attracted to each other gravitationally ever stick together? To do that, they need to lose energy, otherwise they'll just fly apart again. But if the interaction is solely gravitational, how can dark matter lose energy? It can't really - it could give off gravity waves, but those are so pathetically weak that the timescale for doing so could easily exceed the lifetime of the universe many times over. So it'll just keep flying past matter.
Zig, help me out here:

If they attract each other, M & DM, they accelerate toward one another (force is mass times acceleration) and when arriving at one another's location, these two clumps of whatever do what?

1 Accelerate through one another. Is the mutual acceleration enough to slingshot them past one another, and thus beyond effective gravitational attraction range, these aggregations of matter and dark matter?

Or

2. Due to imperfect aiming (or other gravitational effects from third sources) do these masses get into one another's gravitation fields and orbit one another? I get the idea that like neutrinos, a collision course results in something other than a matter versus matter collision, and they can go through one another, but they are still, then, attracting one another via gravitational means, and are bound to come back for another go, unless the mid point is a spot they both approach without "colliding" with one another.

Trying mightily to understand the mechanics here. Not doing so hot.

DR
 
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Zig, help me out here:

If they attract each other, M & DM, they accelerate toward one another (force is mass times acceleration) and when arriving at one another's location, these two clumps of whatever do what?

Well, it's a many-body problem, so there's no way to analytically solve what happens to the whole agregate mass. But we can look at what happens with any two bodies and consider what occurs. There are two categories we can consider in a 2-body interaction: those with positive energies and those with negative energies.

Positive energy means there's enough energy for the particles to escape each other. If they only interact via gravity, that's exactly what they'll do: they'll escape each other. They may pass each other obliquely and deflect to the side as they pass, they may pass straight through each other, but they will escape.

In a negative energy case, they are bound together, and always have been. This could mean that they orbit each other, it could mean that they oscillate back and forth, passing through each other each cycle, but they'll keep doing it forever.

In a many-body case, the negative energy category isn't a definitive categorization, because formerly bound pairs can be thrown apart by the effects of third bodies, and unbound pairs can also become bound for a while.

Much of this applies to ordinary matter interacting under gravity as well, but with a few important differences. One is that ordinary matter can collide with itself and stick together, giving off energy in the process (usually in the form of light). This is no small thing, and it's only a result of non-gravitational forces. It can also collide with itself in inelastic collisions which let off energy but don't necessarily result in sticking together. But this too is important, because it can turn formerly "unbound" particles into "bound" particles (in the sense that they no longer have the kinetic energy to overcome their gravitational potential, even if they orbit at a distance)

1 Accelerate through one another. Is the mutual acceleration enough to slingshot them past one another, and thus beyond effective gravitational attraction range, these aggregations of matter and dark matter?

Think in terms of energy: the energy they gain by accelerating is the same as the energy they lose by decelerating. If they start from rest with respect to each other, they cannot escape each other. If they start out moving fast enough, it doesn't matter how close they get, they will escape each other.

2. Due to imperfect aiming (or other gravitational effects from third sources) do these masses get into one another's gravitation fields and orbit one another?

They can only orbit one another if their kinetic energy is smaller in magnitude than the gravitational energy (remembering that gravitational energy is negative at finite distances and zero at infinite separation).

I get the idea that like neutrinos, a collision course results in something other than a matter versus matter collision, and they can go through one another, but they are still, then, attracting one another via gravitational means, and are bound to come back for another go,

Neutrinos travel at close to c. So they are traveling above the escape velocity for almost everything except black holes - they will not be bound to come back to anything.

Dark matter might be bound to come back - but most of it may not be "bound" to anything smaller than an entire gallaxy. If it's moving fast enough when it starts heading towards something like a star, it'll accelerate towards it, pass through it, slow down on the other side, but still keep going.
 
The predictions about Deep Impact, the predictions about magnetic lines connecting the earth with the sun, the explanation of solar particle acceleration, the theory about coronal heating, x-rays in comet tails, there are a lot of interesting things the EU people bring up.

There are no such predictions - simply vague, non-quantitative statements. It's impossible to make a prediction without a self-consistent and specific theory, and no such theory exists.

I just realized there has been little discussion of Dark Energy. Why is that?

DE is much more poorly understood than DM. The evidence for it comes from various independent measurements, the clearest of which is the supernova redshift/distance relation.

DE is most probably a small positive cosmological constant - certainly that is the explanation for the data which involves the fewest new parameters - but if so no one understands why it's so small or why we're noticing it now. That second issue is called the coincidence problem - why is the energy density in dark energy of order the energy density of matter during our epoch?
 
Science News Article

I just finished an article in the Feb. 2, 2008 Vol. 173 of SCIENCE NEWS titled "EMBRACING THE DARK SIDE". It has a good discussion about this topic. It uses 74% Dark Energy, 22% Dark Matter and 4% Atoms as the composition of the Universe, making it in close agreement with the OP. Also discussed are three upcoming missions in NASA's Beyond Einstein series designed to gather more information about DE and DM. It will be some time before results are available!
:cool:
 
Well, it's a many-body problem, so there's no way to analytically solve what happens to the whole agregate mass. But we can look at what happens with any two bodies and consider what occurs. There are two categories we can consider in a 2-body interaction: those with positive energies and those with negative energies.

Positive energy means there's enough energy for the particles to escape each other. If they only interact via gravity, that's exactly what they'll do: they'll escape each other. They may pass each other obliquely and deflect to the side as they pass, they may pass straight through each other, but they will escape.
With you so far.
In a negative energy case, they are bound together, and always have been. This could mean that they orbit each other, it could mean that they oscillate back and forth, passing through each other each cycle, but they'll keep doing it forever.
OK, I had originally asked about an oscillation, but edited it out. Glad I was at least on the right track.
In a many-body case, the negative energy category isn't a definitive categorization, because formerly bound pairs can be thrown apart by the effects of third bodies, and unbound pairs can also become bound for a while.
Some of which are all grav, some of which are non grav. With you so far.
Much of this applies to ordinary matter interacting under gravity as well, but with a few important differences. One is that ordinary matter can collide with itself and stick together, giving off energy in the process (usually in the form of light). This is no small thing, and it's only a result of non-gravitational forces.
My takeaway: gravity can contribute to the interaction, but the energy released is all sourced in Non gravity forces: EM, strong, weak.
It can also collide with itself in inelastic collisions which let off energy but don't necessarily result in sticking together. But this too is important, because it can turn formerly "unbound" particles into "bound" particles (in the sense that they no longer have the kinetic energy to overcome their gravitational potential, even if they orbit at a distance)
I think I got that.
Think in terms of energy: the energy they gain by accelerating is the same as the energy they lose by decelerating. If they start from rest with respect to each other, they cannot escape each other. If they start out moving fast enough, it doesn't matter how close they get, they will escape each other.
Got it, per your first point.
They can only orbit one another if their kinetic energy is smaller in magnitude than the gravitational energy (remembering that gravitational energy is negative at finite distances and zero at infinite separation).
Lost me there at the very end, but that's something I can look up easily. Not a fact I had at the tip of my tongue.
Neutrinos travel at close to c. So they are traveling above the escape velocity for almost everything except black holes - they will not be bound to come back to anything.
Got it.
Dark matter might be bound to come back - but most of it may not be "bound" to anything smaller than an entire gallaxy. If it's moving fast enough when it starts heading towards something like a star, it'll accelerate towards it, pass through it, slow down on the other side, but still keep going.
Aye, and I will ask: is this what gives us the lensing lensing effect being discussed before Plasma 'R Us began again?

I just realized what Ron Brown died from. A plasma attack over Dubrovnik. :p Acceleration and deceleration had nothing to do with it. :P

Sorry, I really shouldn't have.

DR
 
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With statements like this, you only demonstrate that you fundamentally do not understand electric current ... among other things. ;)

This is your retort, let’s do some calculations, current is measured in charge per second passing a given point. If we have one coulomb of positive charge +1Q passing a point in direction X in one second (or + one ampere) and one coulomb of negative charge –1Q passing the same point in the same direction in the same amount of time (or – one ampere) there is no net current flow. Or if we add +1Q and –1Q in that direction we have no net flow of charge in that direction. I would be more then happy to continue this discussion on the thunderbolts of the gods thread, if you are willing, freeing this thread to its intended purpose.
 
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Which is why you can't link us to peer reviewed papers describing astronomical phenomena

No, that's because I'm a layman.

So am I. Yet I've had no trouble finding and linking to peer reviewed papers supporting the view that galactic rotation curves are the result of electromagnetic effects. No trouble linking to peer reviewed papers concluding that certain high redshift objects are no farther away than nearby low redshift objects. No trouble finding peer reviewed work suggesting that Birkeland currents, z-pinches and double layers are responsible for many of the phenomena observed in space. So I really don't see why you can't find some that specifically challenge those assertions.
 
Yeah, what about DM and DE

Perhaps the reason that dark matter and dark energy are not being discussed in this dark matter and dark energy thread is because both sides have no idea what either of these things are.

The non-electric universe folks have their WIMPs. MACHOs, and micro-lensing magic marbles.

Oh, and the greatest mistake that Einstein ever made in the cosmological constant.

The EU folks have their currents and pinches and stuff.

Does anyone lend any creedence to MOND?

Keith
 
Not so fast:

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0702146

The Bullet Cluster 1E0657-558 evidence shows Modified Gravity in the absence of Dark Matter

Moffat's a crackpot. He's just about the only one that still clings to MOND despite what is now overwhelming evidence against it. I'm not going to waste my time reading that paper, but another one I looked at claimed MOND could survive the bullet cluster if there is ALSO dark matter (which is ridiculous). This is probably similar.

Bad scientific theories never really die until all their adherents do.

Seriously, the only thing that made MOND at all interesting was that it was relatively simple and could explain rotation curves and Tully-Fisher. Of course it couldn't handle gravitational lensing since it wasn't relativistic (and the proposed relativistic version was absolutely horrendous) and it had major theoretical issues, but hey - it worked for something. But it totally fails on the bullet cluster. Yeah, if you twist and turn and push every parameter as far as you can in the right direction you might wiggle out temporarily, but that's destroying the only feature (simplicity) that made it worth considering in the first place.
 
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So am I. Yet I've had no trouble finding and linking to peer reviewed papers supporting the view that galactic rotation curves are the result of electromagnetic effects.

Woah. First things first, mate. Exactly how far do you think electromagnetic effects can reach ?

And why are you so hung up on EM and against gravity-related theories ? Where does that come from ?

So I really don't see why you can't find some that specifically challenge those assertions.

It's called burden of proof. I'm just watching the show and commenting. I'm letting the more qualified people look up your links. So far they seem unimpressed.
 
Your link does not answer the question at all

Sure it does, David. I'm surprised you can't see that.

How does the electric sun model explain the red giant?

You linked to something about one star in your quote about the Monoceros star (which is great) but you still did not answer the question about the electric sun model explaining red giants.

Ironically, you even quote the section on Red Giants which tells you how electric star proponents explain them. They sit in a region on their modified HR diagram (where current density is the x axis) where there are low values of current density. As a result, they will be relatively cool stars under an electric star model. But they are very luminous so they must either be very large stars (which we know some are) or have a very large radiating corona. In any case, they are not necessarily older stars (contrary to the mainstream explanation).

Is that so difficult to understand?

How then does this model account for the difference of the elements heavier than hydrogen in a red giant?

Again, have you actually read anything I've posted or linked, David? I'll give you a hint. z-pinch. It's been mentioned many times during the course of these exchanges.

This might be a z-pinch on the surface of our own sun:

http://trace.lmsal.com/POD/images/MDI_T171_000317_11.gif

You can see filaments all coalescing into or emanating from a single point.

This might be one in what the mainstream claims is a pulsar:

http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/Images/objects/heapow/compact_objects/vela_pulsar_jet.jpg

The shape of the discharge matches that of a z-pinch and there is a synchrotron jet just like a z-pinch can produce.

This might be one at a supernova site (SN 1987A):

http://chandra.harvard.edu/photo/2005/sn87a/sn87a_xray_opt.jpg

In this case one can again see the filaments that a z-pinch produces. In fact, one can see filaments (the bright beads) in exactly the numbers data indicates z-pinches will produce. Here, David, another source you can not read: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel5/27/4287017/04287093.pdf "The Z-Pinch Morphology of Supernova 1987A and Electric Stars".

And here's a post supernova nebula with characteristics that suggest a z-pinch source:

http://www.holoscience.com/news/img/redsquare.jpg

You can see the Birkeland filaments, renamed 'combs' by the mainstream because they don't really understand what they are looking at and the word "electricity" never crosses their mind. And the bipolar hourglass shape is also a characteristic of z-pinch phenomena.

Now I've posted all about this previously ... so you know what I'm referencing. Or at least you should, David. :)

A red giant star is considered to be older than a yellow star (like our sun) for what reason, the larger amount of the heavier element especially He.

First of all, the electric sun theorists state that a red star is not NECESSARILY older. Second, a star's spectrum says nothing about the composition inside the star. It only tells you what's at the surface or in the photosphere of the star. Third, the mainstream assumes that except for the ratios of hydrogen and helium in ordinary stars, the composition doesn't change. In other words, it assumes that the heavier elements in the sun came from past generations of stars which presumably exploded producing those metals.

But a z-pinch near the solar surface can produce metals and other elements and alter the ratio of hydrogen and helium in the near surface atmosphere. In an electric star, heavy element abundances would not be fixed but would be created in the outer layers by the high-energy discharges. Red giants could simply be stars that once were subject to higher electric current density (producing lots of metals and converting H to He) which are now, for whatever reason, traveling through a region with lower current density.

in the mainstream model a star can transform very quickly from the main sequence to one of the other pockets on the HR diagram

Not that quickly, David. Standard model advocates claim all stars starts out above and to the right of their main sequence position. They move into position on the main sequence when fusion begins. The star then remains at that location until its hydrogen is nearly exhausted. Then the star moves away from the main sequence.

Prior to its eruption in 2002, V838 Monocerotis was considered an F-type dwarf star on the mainsequence. According to http://www.aavso.org/vstar/vsots/1202.shtml "there was no known indication of any movement of the star off the main sequence". And although you are suggesting that it quickly evolved from a main sequence to a red supergiant, that source notes that "Most of the time this takes hundreds or thousands of years, not months!" Wikipedia states that the "lightcurve produced by the eruption is unlike anything previously seen." It is so strange, in fact, that some mainstream astronomers are now claiming V838 Monocerotis is "the first known" L-type supergiant. And guess what? They've suddenly discovered that the star also has a B-type supergiant main sequence companion that they never noticed before.

Now electric theorists have no problem explaining what has happened in a consistent and logical manner. They theorize that the star fissioned (broke into two stars) due to the electrical stress caused by a sudden increase in the current density of the surrounding medium. Mainstream astrophysicists, on the other hand, must admit the cause "is still uncertain". They have half a dozen theories now, none of which seem to fit the observations.

The Hubble website in 2003 (http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2003/10 ) said "V838 Monocerotis did not expel its outer layers. Instead, it grew enormously in size. Its surface temperature dropped to temperatures that were not much hotter than a light bulb. This behavior of ballooning to an enormous size, but not losing its outer layers, is very unusual and completely unlike an ordinary nova explosion." But they refuse to give up on seeing this as a case of evolution. Instead, they say "the outburst may represent a transitory stage in a star's evolution that is rarely seen." In late 2006, the Hubble site still had to admit that the star "continues to puzzle astronomers" and that "the reason for the eruption is still unclear". And it's so rare it's a first.

Even Tim Thompson, a mainstream theory supporter and noted electric star critic, has had to admit http://www.tim-thompson.com/v838mon.html "the light curve & spectrum are not typical of any known class of object; it's not a nova, nor is it a "born again" helium flash star ... snip ... It appears, therefore, to be unique, the only known member of whatever class of objects it represents. ... snip ... But everyone seems to agree that classical novae, and helium flash objects, do not produce spectra that look like V838 Mon. So, for the time being, the question of what happened out there in the Galaxy, remains unanswered."

So don't try to pull the wool over everyone's head, David, by trying to suggest there's nothing remarkable about this star or that it fits neatly into the mainstream model ... especially your theory. That would simply be dishonest. This is more the actual state of their explanations: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_16_170/ai_n16864846 . And note that not once do they mention the electric star hypothesis. Ignoring it again.

And that's not the only example, David. The link I provided notes that the star FG Sagittae has rather suddenly changed from a blue (BO) to a yellow (K) star ... while still remaining on the main sequence. It quotes a mainstream reference saying "Around 1900 FG Sge was an inconspicuous hot star (T = 50,000 K) of magnitude 13. During the next 60 years it cooled to about 8000 K and brightened in the visual region to magnitude 9, as its radiation shifted from the far-UV to the visual region. Around 1970 a whole new bunch of spectral lines appeared due to elements such as Sr, Y, Zr, Ba and rare earths. .... The star cooled further in the 1970s and 80s and then all of a sudden in 1992 its magnitude dropped to 14. Further drops occurred from 1992 to 1996 with a very deep minimum near magnitude 16 in June of 1996." As the link notes, FG Sagittae has changed from a "normal hot giant to a 'late spectral type' (cool) star with marked changes in its surface chemical composition" over a single human lifetime.

So do you really want to claim that it "evolved" over a single human lifetime into an entirely different type of star on the main sequence? In fact, after the evolution, the mainstream suddenly discovered that this star is also a binary (see a trend here folks?). The electric star theorists again suggest that what happened is it fissioned due to extreme electrical stress. The mainstream on the other hand claims it just happened to burn the last bit of He (the aforementioned helium flash) and then changed into a R CrB variable type star ... and oh yes ... "we much have just missed the presence of that binary companion all those years".

And apparently V 605 Aquilae and V 4334 Sagittarii did something similar. They also "changed both spectral type and surface composition very rapidly" ... into R CrB type stars according to the mainstream. Even more remarkable ... all three of these stars supposedly changed to R CrB stars in the last 100 years. That's remarkable because as of 2005 this class of star still only numbers about 50 (including R CrB candidates) in the part of the Milky Way we can survey. Don't you think it's a little unlikely that we'd just happen to see 6 percent of that type star created in just the last 100 years ... if they are truly that rare a type star? How long do R CrB stars last, David? No one seems to know the answer but the star that type of star is named after has been one for at least 200 years. So if 3 on average are created every century in this region of the galaxy and R CrB is typical of that type star, shouldn't there now be AT LEAST 600, not just 50?

You do know that the mainstream model can explain many variable stars, I can imagine the hash that the electric sun model would make of that, especially the flaring companion dwarf stars.

Why must you imagine, David ... when the sources I've linked you to have indicated how electric star theorists explain them?

And speaking of variable stars I found a recent peer reviewed paper that actually considers the type of unipolar inductor model first developed by Alfven. And here's what it says ...

"ULTRACAM Photometry of the ultracompact binaries V407Vul and HM Cnc" by S.C.C. Barros, T.R. Marsh, V. S. Dhillon, P. J. Groot, S. Littlefair, G. Nelemans, G. Roelofs, D. Steeghs and P. J. Wheatley, http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0611117.pdf , 3 Nov 2006, "It has proved hard to decide which, if any, of the models is correct. Compared to typical accreting systems, HM Cnc has a weak optical line emission, while V407 Vul has none at all. This favours the unipolar inductor model which is the only one without accretion. The unipolar inductor model, along with the IP model, is also favoured by the observed decrease in pulsation periods (Strohmayer 2002, 2004; Hakala et al. 2003; Strohmayer 2003; Hakala et al. 2004) although recently accreting models with long-lasting spin-up phases have been developed (D’Antona et al. 2006; Deloye & Taam 2006). The shapes and phases of the X-ray light curves on the other hand count against the unipolar inductor model (Barros et al. 2005) which can only accommodate the high X-ray luminosity of V407 Vul with a white dwarf that spins faster than its orbit (Marsh & Nelemans 2005; Dall’Osso et al. 2006a,b). The accreting double-degenerate models on the other hand lead to high accretion rates and strong heating of the white dwarf, particularly in the case of HM Cnc, which is required to be at a distance of 4 to 20 kpc, and well out of the Galactic plane (Bildsten et al. 2006; D’Antona et al. 2006). At the moment therefore, there is no clear winner, or even leading contender amongst the models and better observational constraints are a priority."

I don't care what the answer is as long as the mainstream directly and honestly confronts the EU/PC theories. I hope this is an indication that the times they are finally a changing. :D
 
we are the lucky ones, that we are even able to sit on a computer and be passionate about Dark Matters, or Electricity, or Gravity, Space, Time, the immense unknowns and complicated theories, and all that stuff.

So true. But we still have to take time for American Idol!
 
Just as an example: there are four fundamental equations describing E&M, called Maxwell's equations. The first one is known as Gauss' law.

Tell us, sol ... do you believe in magnetic reconnection? I asked that question of Ziggurat after he mentioned Gauss' law and he ignored me. How about you? You going to just ignore me too, even after I posted a wikipedia link that states Gauss' law forbids open magnetic field lines? Magnetic reconnection assumes open magnetic field lines ... or how else could they "reconnect". So how about it, sol ... do you believe in magnetic reconnection? :D
 
That's one of the reasons I stopped replying to BAC months ago.

How about you, Yllanes? Do you believe in magnetic reconnection? Of course you do, since you tried to defend it back when we were still conversing. In fact, you once claimed that Maxwell's equations covered the reconnecting magnetic field assertion of mainstream astrophysicists. But doesn't magnetic reconnection require that magnetic field lines be able to open? Afterall, if they didn't, how could they "reconnect". So explain to us this wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field "Gauss's law for magnetism" states that the magnetic field is solenoidal (has zero divergence). This is equivalent to the simple statement that, in any field-line depiction of a magnetic field, the field lines cannot have starting or ending points; they must form a closed loop, or else extend to infinity on both ends."
 

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