Dark matter and Dark energy

Do you mean the answer is nobody knows?
We know (at least to some degree of accuracy) the vacuum energy density (if that's what is causing the acceleration of the universe). What sol's answer means is that noone knows why it has that value.
 
Do you mean the answer is nobody knows?

What edd said.

The expansion of the universe is accelerating. A small vacuum energy would account for that acceleration ("small" means again the figure I gave roughly before - the energy equivalent of a few protons per cubic meter). The precise value of the energy density is known to maybe 20% accuracy, although I'd have to think carefully about the error bars to say for sure. Anyway, it's known roughly.

But when you calculate the vacuum energy using particle physics, you get an answer vastly larger than that.
 
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I'm asking about reality, not imagined values. Say, a cubic meter measuring device orbiting in space, lets say a little farther than the orbit of our planet.

How much mass, and how much energy is going to be found? Both in the cubic meter of space (particles of all kinds), as well as energy (of all kinds) impacting our sensor.

If you convert the energy to mass, how much mass is there in that cubic meter of space? Or how much energy?

I know there are all kinds of problems even describing what that means.

I just wonder what is the mass/energy of reality. Both specific as well as the average.
 
Don't be dumb. Just the energy a solar cell collects from a meter of space is at least a 100 watts. (the side facing the Sun of course). Depending on how far it is from the sun. The other EM, as well as energetic particles, protons, electrons, and other exotic things, like cosmic rays, has to be a substantial amount.

Maybe the word energy is confusing you. I am talking about EM radiation, as well as fast moving particles and slowly moving particles.
 
All we know from indirect observations is that there is some weakly interacting, non-luminous mass out there, and roughly how much there is. We don't know whether it's "exotic" or "mundane", whatever that means.

That's untrue. Even mainstream astrophysicists have now placed specific limits on the "mundane" matter. It's no more than 10-15 percent of what's needed to meet your gravitation-only theory. The rest of it is exotic ... which is why after 30 years and billions of dollars looking for it, you still haven't identified it. :)
 
Sun ... powered by electricity ???

How the hell does that work if the temperature is so high that there are no electrons in the core ?

Anyone else see the irony in this statement when Ziggurat, to whom the comment was directed, has argued that's impossible? (Not that I'm agreeing with you, either, Belz.) :D

And how does it explain neutrinos ?

According to electric star theorists, neutrinos are produced by nuclear fusion occurring in z-pinches near the surface of the star. Just so you know, a z-pinch is one of those electromagnetic phenomena that mainstream astrophysicists have been routinely ignoring. :D
 
It would be more fun to imagine dark matter exists, in regards to discussing it.

I have been thinking about it, as if it is real stuff. It brings up all kinds of science fiction ideas.
 
Anyone else see the irony in this statement when Ziggurat, to whom the comment was directed, has argued that's impossible?

Apparently not.

According to electric star theorists, neutrinos are produced by nuclear fusion occurring in z-pinches near the surface of the star.

So there IS fusion going on but... it's not what's powering the star ??

Just so you know, a z-pinch is one of those electromagnetic phenomena that mainstream astrophysicists have been routinely ignoring. :D

Yeah, well they seem to have ignored the rest of the theory for good reasons.
 
I get something of the other of 1,000 WIMPS (those are a kind of DM particle) per cubic meter ... snip ... So there are of order 100 million WIMPS per second passing through your body.

What sol left out of his description is the word "hypothetical" and the fact that a bunch of expensive experiments have been (and are still) trying to find these *hypothetical* DM particles without success.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP "Indirect detection efforts rest upon the theoretical prediction that halo WIMPs may, as they pass through the Sun, interact with solar protons and helium nuclei. Such an interaction would cause a WIMP to lose energy and become "captured" by the Sun (see Solar WIMP capture). As more and more WIMPs thermalize inside the Sun, they begin to annihilate with each other, forming a variety of particles including high-energy neutrinos. These neutrinos may then travel to the Earth to be detected in one of the many neutrino telescopes, such as the Super-Kamiokande detector in Japan. The number of neutrino events detected per day at these detectors depends upon the properties of the WIMP, as well as on the mass of the Higgs boson. Similar experiments are underway to detect neutrinos from WIMP annihilations within the Earth and from within the galactic center."

BUT, it looks like the Super-Kamiodande experiment found no evidence of WIMPS at least at energies greater than 1500 GeV. http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0711/0711.0053v1.pdf "November 2007 ... snip ... 8.1 WIMP searches. We have performed searches for WIMP annihilations in the center of the Earth, Sun and Galactic Center using upward through-going muons [7]. Here we repeat the same search using upward showering muons. ... snip ... Since, there is no statistically significant excess in any of the search cones, we do not see any evidence for WIMP-induced upward showering muons in our dataset."

Now I know that the DAMA group had claimed discovery, but CDMS and EDELWEISS results apparently ruled that claim out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WIMP " DAMA collaboration has claimed a positive detection. Other groups, however, have not confirmed this result. The CDMS and EDELWEISS experiments would be expected to observe a significant number of WIMP-nucleus scatters if the DAMA signal were in fact caused by WIMPs. Since the other experiments do not see these events, the interpretation of the DAMA result as a WIMP detection can be excluded for most WIMP models. It is possible to devise models that reconcile a positive DAMA result with the other negative results, but as the sensitivity of other experiments improves, this becomes more difficult. The CDMS data taken in the Soudan Mine and made public in May of 2004 exclude the entire DAMA signal region given certain standard assumptions about the properties of the WIMPs and the dark matter halo."

In fact, I know of no experiment at this time that has definitively, probably or even possibly proven that WIMPS exist. Yet, you post as if we know for certain that they do. We do not. At present, they are nothing more than a hypothetical gnome that I think you pray will solve your missing matter problem. Now if the LHC finds evidence of WIMPS, you ping me. And if it doesn't, I'll ping you. :)

By the way, I found this more complete 2002 list titled "dark matter experiments - by site" that our readers might be interested in seeing (to contrast with claims about the search for DM being "cheap"): http://gaitskell.brown.edu/physics/talks/0207_NFAC_ReviewCommittee/Gaitskell_DM_NFAC_Redux.pdf . It lists IGEX, ORPHEUS, NaI, NaIAD, ZEPLIN I, ZEPLIN II/III, ZEPLIN-MAX, DRIFT-I, DRIFT-10, COSME, IGEX, ANAIS, ROSEBUD, Saclay-NaI, EDELWEISS I, EDELWEISS II, Hdlberg/Mscw, HDMS, Genius, DAMA, LIBRA, Xenon, CRESST-I, CRESST-II, CUORICINO, CUORE, XMAS, Elegants V, Elegants VI, LiF, SIMPLE, CDMS-1, CDMS-II, CryoArray, XENON and PICASSO. And I'm sure some newer (and probably even more expensive) ones have been dreamed up since then. The search for DM is not "cheap", either.
 
All we know is that certain objects in the universe behave as if they possess more gravity than can be accounted for by their observable mass. The rest is theory -- extremely sound, well-considered, and supported theory mind you, but theory nontheless.

It's "sound", only as long as they completely ignore peer reviewed work by well credentialed scientists published in well regarded technical journals that suggests they've missed the obvious by not considering electromagnetic causes for the way certain objects behave. :D

And if you want the truth, I hesitated in posting, for fear that some woo may take my thoughts (and they are nothing but conjecture at best) and interpret them as denouncing modern cosmology. I'm not.

Well in that case, you wouldn't happen to know of a peer reviewed article by a modern cosmology supporting scientist that proves the peer reviewed work I linked by Dr Peratt is wrong, would you? :) Or perhaps you can link us to a mainstream source (say one of the many books or magazine articles written by modern cosmologists or about their work) that directly mentions Dr Peratt and shows specifically why his large scale PIC calculations were wrong? :D
 
Some people study intergalactic dust as a career

I sure wish you folks would stop calling it "gas" and "dust". It's not. It's in all likelihood (99+percent probable) plasma, which has significantly different properties from what most people think of as "gas" or "dust". But perhaps you don't want them to know about and consider those properties, eh sol? ;)

And were you aware that neutrinos were recently discovered to be massive? And if that mass were just a bit higher than it turns out to be - which could easily have happened - they would account for dark matter?

You are misusing words again, sol. They weren't found to be "massive" but "to have mass". And that mass needs to be more than "a bit higher" to account for all the mass that's missing. Scientists have now ruled out neutrinos as accounting for anything more than a few percent of the total missing mass. http://universe-review.ca/R15-13-neutrino.htm "Neutrinos could constitute anything from 0.1 to 7 per cent of the mass of the universe (the dark matter). This range corresponds to the heaviest neutrino being in the mass range 0.05 to about 1 eV. " Scientists currently put the neutrino mass at a fraction of an eV.

Appeal to authority is not going to work, sorry. I'm very well acquainted with this subject.

Which is why you chimed in to agree with Ziggurat when he recently claimed that most of the mass in the universe was not plasma but neutral matter? :)

Again, we don't know for sure DM is composed of new particles .... snip ... It may turn out to be composed of ordinary matter - brown dwarfs, neutrinos, primordial black holes, etc.

Yes we do. Scientists have ruled out all the things we know for certain exist (and primordial black holes are not one of them nor are they "ordinary" by any stretch of the imagination) as comprising any more than 10-15 percent of the missing mass. :D

And yet he still provided the key ingredient which accounts for every observations we have of the effects of dark energy.

Of course, the whole artifice of dark energy rests on the redshift/distance relationship being correct for quasars and other high redshift objects. But there's lots of reasons to suspect that isn't the case. Here's one: http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/graphics/images/2004/spiralgalaxy.new.gif . :D
 
I'll grant you Einstein wasn't a fortune teller. But I would hardly deem his opinion as irrelevant, and it wouldn't take much of an appeal to authority to find lots of people in the business who would probably agree with me.

One think Einstein didn't do is ignore electromagnetism ... as least not in his early years.
 
You won't find an answer because your question is meaningless.

But is the question I asked in post #133 meaningless? Can you reconcile the apparent discrepancy in the numbers claimed by the mainstream and sol? I'd surely appreciate it. :)
 
However, one answer to the question about why we see only about a third of the neutrinos from the sun that we should see was that the neutrinos were changing en route from one type to another. ... snip ... To cut a long story short (too late), it was found that this was exactly what was happening.

This is false. It seems to me the ONLY way they could have determined a change in type with any certainty is by detecting the type of neutrinos at both ends of the pipe running from the sun to the earth. They didn't do that. They detected neutrinos ONLY at the earth's end and simply assumed they'd changed type. See http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sudbury.htm for more details.

But I have a question of my own. This image

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/9806/neusun1_superk.jpg

was constructed by the Super-K researchers and is said to be, by it's authors, a neutrino image of the sun, with the image centered on the sun and the picture covering a significant fraction of the sky (90x90 degrees in R.A. and Dec.). Brighter colors are said to represent a larger flux of neutrinos. Now as you can see, the neutrinos aren't all generated in the center of the sun ... in fact, they appear to have a gradually decreasing source intensity as one moves away from the sun.

But mainstream theory says the only place fusion can be occurring is deep inside the sun. And since nothing between the sun and us (or elsewhere in the solar system) could diffuse the neutrinos coming from the sun, why doesn't this image just show a VERY bright spot near the center of the sun and a much lower intensity everywhere else (representing the background neutrino flux from the rest of the universe)?

Please note that this image is not inconsistent with the theory by electric star theorists since they say that fusion is occuring near and above the surface of the sun for quite some distance (which would produce a neutrino image that gradually dims as one moves away from the sun).

Any comment?
 
Any comment?

Only the obvious: what's the angular resolution on these measurements, and shouldn't there be some background neutrino flux from the rest of the galaxy? Given some blurring and some background (which needn't be isotropic), it seems like this might be exactly what to expect from standard fusion models.

Once again, BAC, how can electric models confine sufficient charge on the sun to power it?
 
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Originally Posted by BeAChooser
If many high redshift quasars and high redshift galaxies turn out to be rather close objects instead of objects at the extreme edges of the universe, then all the calculations that have been done so far with regards to dark energy get tossed out the window.

Key word: if.

True, but there is a mighty impressive set of observations and calculations published in peer-reviewed scientific journals by various researchers that suggest it's HIGHLY unlikely that all the alignments and curious patterns between high red shift objects (quasars and certain galaxies) and low red-shift objects, and between high-redshift objects, are all mere "coincidence". Here again, the mainstream is mostly just ignoring these observations and calculations. For example, the image I posted earlier is of highshift quasar that appears to be (according to published, peer-reviewed researchers) in front of a low redshift galaxy. And there are still no peer-reviewed articles challenging this conclusion. Even years later. The same is true of numerous unlikely alignments. Again, the mainstream ignores anything that directly challenges its gnomes.
 

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