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Danger: Radiation!

PopeTom

Critical Thinker
PopeTom
Joined
Jan 17, 2004
Messages
388
I came across a post recently by a man who was looking to borrow a Geiger counter so he could 'check out' a place he was considering buy/renting that happens to be within 1 miles of a nuclear plant (Plymouth, MA or Seabrook, NH I'm guessing).

I'm curious as to if this is a clever idea any smart person would make, or paranoia driven by a total misunderstanding of the nuclear industry.

I am currently leaning towards the latter. Especially as I am unaware of any major (or minor for that matter) events to occur at nuclear facilities near Boston, MA.

Thank you in advance.
 
I'd go with the latter also though I guess there's nothing wrong with being prudent.

Of course if he's really paranoid it won't help predict any future problems, hehe.
 
Very much the latter. If any radiation was there, it would be normal background radiation.
 
PopeTom said:
I came across a post recently by a man who was looking to borrow a Geiger counter so he could 'check out' a place he was considering buy/renting that happens to be within 1 miles of a nuclear plant (Plymouth, MA or Seabrook, NH I'm guessing).
Click to expand...

The latter. Any radiation he would measure would be the natural background.

Here in Madrid we have a laboratory called CIEMAT, which is inside the city. It has some radioactive material and as such is tightly controlled. There are radiation meters all around and in the lobby you can see a map of the installation with the measured radiation levels. There is much misunderstanding about these things and I think some high profile 'journalist' made a 'documentary' a few years ago about it. They basically claimed that laboratory was going to kill us all, that they have there the remains of some nuclear weapons Franco wanted to make, etc. The reality is that the radiation level is indistinguishable from the background you would have without the laboratory.

Citizens of the neighbourhood claim it is the area of Madrid with most cancer cases (of course, there is no evidence). A couple of months ago I read a letter in the newspaper from an individual who likes to go to the mountain every summer to 'escape from the radiation'. Little does he now that the radiation levels in his summer house are at least 10 times higher (maybe many times more)...
 
The problem would be if he doesn't know how to use a Geiger counter, there is no telling what he would or wouldn't find.
 
The major problem with this is that I very much doubt he knows what he is doing. Different places have very different background levels of radiation, so just measuring around the house and comparing to some average he has looked up would prove nothing. For example, the radiation in a random house in Cornwall will be much higher than that at the front gate of Sellafield.

The only possible explanation is paranoia, since if he knew what he was doing he wouldn't bother to do it.
 
I'd go with the latter.

Though depening on how paranoid this guys is...I can see parties at his place being a hoot as he passes out radiation badges to guests.
 
PopeTom said:
I'm curious as to if this is a clever idea any smart person would make, or paranoia driven by a total misunderstanding of the nuclear industry.
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It doesn't have to be paranoia; it could be a perfectly reasonable action to take in response to a recognized lack of expertise. Suppose...

He's not a nuclear technology ace, and he knows it. He's heard all kinds of stuff from all kinds of people, ranging from "nothing to worry about, there's no danger" to "nothing to worry about, it's already given you cancer". He thinks he trusts the experts who tell him he's OK, but he has nagging emotional doubts.

A few minutes with a counter can relieve his fears by giving him a verification in terms he can understand; even if it's not a truly definitive test, it's a piece of personally verifiable information that's either consistent with the stories that tell him he's safe or a flag that he might need a more competent assessment.

Be honest: many of us do similar things, though in less "amusing" context. I'm a bit "paranoid" about locking my keys in a room or car. (Ever dismantle a car seat, without tools, in the dark, on a deserted country road, to get to the keys you locked in the trunk? Fun stuff.) I routinely hold the door open with one hand until I'm clutching "the" keys in the other (often until I look directly at "the" keys in my free hand, dropping burdens as requred). Now, my keys go back into my pocket immediately after use; there's little rational basis to believe they're not right there where they (almost) always are. I could pause and consider my actions to assure myself that the door won't lock behind me or I've not put the keys behind it, but it's easy to just hold the door open while I grab "the" keys. My test isn't definitive; I rarely actually verify that *the* key to *this* lock is in hand, only that I've got a key ring (or card) that's more-or-less like what I expect to need to unlock the door again. That little dance lets me relax and worry less about whether I've locked my keys away.
 
A typical gamma radiation meter is not likely to be very useful. To detect under the limit of 100 mrem per year, (.011 mr/hr) he would need a very sensitive instrument. The natural background radiation level could be higher than this too.

He is better off taking a solid sample of the dirt around the house and sending it away for a gross count. If it is less than 30 pico curies per gram, then it is safe. If it is higher, then an isotopic analysis will tell him if there are any artificial isotopes originating from the local power plant.

I am more worried about car accidents and my high blood pressure than the nuclear plants I worked on and lived next to. Ditto for the subroc (nuc) motor that I slept next to my first year on submarines.

Ranb
 
A friend of mine who is a nuclear engineer told me once that nuclear power plants can't be placed within a certain radius of coal plants. Why? Because all the radioactive material that gets released when coal burns mucks up the sensitive radiation sensors around nuclear plants.

I'd live next door to a nuclear power plant, but I'm not goin' anywhere NEAR a coal plant. (Not for fear of radiation, mind you, but to protect my lungs.) The guy's simply hysterical.
 
DavidS said:
It doesn't have to be paranoia; it could be a perfectly reasonable action to take in response to a recognized lack of expertise. Suppose...

He's not a nuclear technology ace, and he knows it. He's heard all kinds of stuff from all kinds of people, ranging from "nothing to worry about, there's no danger" to "nothing to worry about, it's already given you cancer". He thinks he trusts the experts who tell him he's OK, but he has nagging emotional doubts.

A few minutes with a counter can relieve his fears by giving him a verification in terms he can understand; even if it's not a truly definitive test, it's a piece of personally verifiable information that's either consistent with the stories that tell him he's safe or a flag that he might need a more competent assessment.
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The problem with this is, as other posters have pointed out, that waving a Geiger counter around the house won't tell him anything unless he knows more about sources and types of radiation, not to mention how to use and read a counter. Just as an example, I know that polished stone countertops of various kinds (I'm a geologist and so can't handle saying things like "granite countertops," as it's usually incorrect :D) will set off Geiger counters. So this poor guy is definitely going to get all kinds of scary-looking readings, and is going to get even MORE paranoid! As someone else mentioned, soil sampling would be more appropriate. There are consultants who do that kind of thing, I'm sure.

Radiation is extremely misunderstood, and a lot of people get really worked up for no reason (irradiated food is NOT radioactive, sheesh!). Just something that gets up my nose.

ETA: Buckaroo, I worked in a lab in college that analyzed radioactive isotopes in rocks, and we had to work in hair nets and tyvek in a clean lab, because if a hair or some dust got into the sample, it would have enough uranium to totally mess up the analysis. Like I said, radiation is highly misunderstood.
 
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PopeTom said:
I came across a post recently by a man who was looking to borrow a Geiger counter so he could 'check out' a place he was considering buy/renting that happens to be within 1 miles of a nuclear plant (Plymouth, MA or Seabrook, NH I'm guessing).

I'm curious as to if this is a clever idea any smart person would make, or paranoia driven by a total misunderstanding of the nuclear industry.

I am currently leaning towards the latter. Especially as I am unaware of any major (or minor for that matter) events to occur at nuclear facilities near Boston, MA.

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

Well, first of all...... If the nuclear plant were somehow leaking excessive radiation, you would know. It's not like it could really be kept under wraps that well. They have detectors obviously at the plant, and even at a good distance, there would be noticeable fission products on sensitive enough equipment.

Now, if you take a geiger counter around a home near a nuke plant, you may find some "hot spots" just as you would without a nuke plant near by. These might be some thorium-rich stones in the foundation, soil, old radium clocks, substitute salt etc etc.

If you don't know what you are doing, you're really not going to be able to tell what the hell the thing is telling you other than "OMG it just clicked. Is that bad?"

And as for radon, it's pretty difficult to detect with a geiger muller tube and even if you can, it's hard to tell from other things. I would advise against using a geiger counter to try to detect radon as there are some purpose-built radon detectors.


The bottom line is leaking lots of radiation (which I can pretty much assure you it's not), you'll notice by all the people dying and feds coming in and the sirens blaring.

If it is leaking minute and tiny amounts of radiation (as some anti-nukers will claim, because they can say it's being hidden because we cannot detect them easily)... well then a geiger counter is not much good. I assure you though it's almost certainly not.


If you would like, please inform the gentleman that I would be more than happy to come up with a tritium air sampler, a liquid scintillation machine and gamma spectrometer to make sure it's all safe... for a nominal fee
 
I heard of a guy from Cornwall (here in England) who went to work at a nuclear power station. On entering the plant on his first day, he set off the radiation alarms.

His house was built on granite and full of radon. But of course, that was "natural" radiation and therefore good for you.
 
Of course, one point that no-one else seems to have been pedantic enough to point out is that he is not looking for radiation, he is looking for radioactivity, or at best ionising radiation. If he wants to find radiation all he has to do is open his eyes.
 
The most radioactive part of the physics dept. building where I studied was the front entrance staircase. It was made from a local granite (sorry, IANAGeologist) which contains fair amounts of Pechblände. The radioactive lab was dead quiet by comparison. (unless you stuck the counter behind the lead shielding, that is).
 
Call me paranoid.....:)
For several years I have had a Geiger counter running in my house. I built it in the aftermath of Chernobyl incident( I am living in Sweden ). Registrations is made by sound, a counter and a dial. Usually I can't hear it, but my guests do. But if the ticking sound changes I register. Usually the intensity changes less than +-5% measured over an hour.
But now and then( maybe a few times a year ) I get an increase to 3-5 times normal intensity. Can stay like that for a few hours or return to normal within a few minutes. I believe the intensity changes are caused by cosmic radiation or the "sun wind" is reaching the earth surface due to disturbances in the earth magnetic field. Or do you have some reasonable cause ?

John Rehn
 
Like others have said, it is definitely the latter. If there was any radiation coming from the plant, it should be found by at least one of the many detectors that are installed around plants for just that sort of thing. These detectors are better suited for this purpose and are operated by more knowledgeable people. Any amount of leaked radiation that is small enough to get past these detectors (or small enough to be successfully covered up) would be too small to be harmful. Again as others have said, he is more likely to find hot spots coming from the home itself or the ground it is built on. He should check for radon as part of the home buying process, but that doesn't involve getting a counter and doing it himself. Of course, any radon he finds will not be the result of living near a nuclear plant.

This reminds me of a funny story from grad school. A fellow Nuclear Engineering grad student and good friend of mine was out at dinner one night. A woman at the table next to him was talking about the dangers of having a nuclear reactor on campus. Eventually my friend had to speak up and correct her, because just about everything she said was wrong. He told her that he, like all students, staff, and visitors, had to wear a dosimeter when he was at the reactor, and the dosimeters showed that people at the reactor got very little to no dosage. Her straight-faced response was simply "then every dosimeter they have must be broken or tampered with." She wasn't going to let evidence get in the way of her conclusion! If I were there, I would have asked her why so many of the people on campus who are most knowledgeable about radiation (people with advanced degrees in Nuclear Engineering and Radiation Science And Technology) actually work at the reactor. Some of them have offices adjacent to the reactor bay!

I still keep the dosimeter analysis results the school sent me that shows how much radiation I was exposed to there. After subtracting out the control that measured background radiation, I was exposed to about 0.4 mrem of radiation over three years. And most of that came from one high-radiation reactor experiment I ran which required restricting access to the bay to essential personnel only. We also had to rope off no-go areas where nobody could go, and we had to disable an alarm ahead of time to keep from evacuating the building (all of this was done under very strict planning and supervision, of course). We all had to wear multiple dosimeters, including instant readout ones. Two of the engineers working with me were jokingly competing to see whose dosimeter would measure more radiation during the experiment. And with all of that, the dosage still measured in microrems for a six hour experiment. Of course, this was just a 1MWt research reactor, not a ~2600MWt commercial reactor.
 
I think he should also bring along and EMF meter to see if it is haunted!

IXP
 
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