Curses and Skeptics

[Beady]

Of course anybody aware of the psychosomatic effect, and having a skeptical mind would not fall into this same trap.

The above quote was pasted here from a thread in the Challenge forum that I really didn't want to help perpetuate, but I still wanted to talk about this particular subject. I believe it was said tongue-in-cheek, but the question is still interesting: Can a skeptic be adversly affected by a curse?

I believe the answer is Yes.

I vividly remember a job I had that I thoroughly hated. Every morning, my body would literally seize up, to the point where I almost couldn't get dressed. It felt as if I'd pulled every conceivable muscle in my body; my fine motor skills were shot so that I had trouble gripping my clothes as I pulled them on, my legs were so stiff and sore that it was agony to work the foot controls on the car as I drove in, and it was physical agony to lift my arms to hold the steering wheel. Things eased up throughout the day, until I was almost fine by the time I got home. This went on for weeks, until I got caught up in a mass layoff, then the symptoms went away and have yet to return. This wasn't the first time this kind of thing has happened to me, but it was certainly the worst.

Thing is, I knew exactly what was happening. I knew it was psychosomatic, I knew it was because of my job, and I knew that there wasn't anything physically wrong with me.

It seems to me that a curse could be equally effective. There was something about how I perceived my job that "convinced my body" that it should seize up like that. If a "curser" could convince, or maybe even induce the proper atmosphere at the time of the curse, then even a skeptical "cursee" would be in trouble.

 

[Ashles]

Absolutely, just because someone is sceptical does not mean that they have perfect control over their mind, perception or psychological processes.
We are all open to suggestion to some extent.

Similarly I am sure that most of the sceptics here will have some form of superstitions in their life in some way or another.
Notnecessarily anythjing paranormal, but more like if you knock one hand you have to knock the other to 'balance it up'. Not stepping on cracks. That sort of stuff.

Our minds are not perfect logical machines - the very fact that we are so good at detecting patterns, and creating mental constructs of theoretical situations we have not encountered (our imagination) also works against us for psychosomatic ailments and superstitions.

 

[EHocking]

Re: Re: Curses and Skeptics

Absolutely, just because someone is sceptical does not mean that they have perfect control over their mind, perception or psychological processes.
We are all open to suggestion to some extent.

Similarly I am sure that most of the sceptics here will have some form of superstitions in their life in some way or another.
Notnecessarily anythjing paranormal, but more like if you knock one hand you have to knock the other to 'balance it up'. Not stepping on cracks. That sort of stuff.

Our minds are not perfect logical machines - the very fact that we are so good at detecting patterns, and creating mental constructs of theoretical situations we have not encountered (our imagination) also works against us for psychosomatic ailments and superstitions.

Beady's example gives the impression of a stress related condition. Your post also points out that if a someone is under stress, such as anxiety caused by superstitious beliefs or, say, a phobia, they may be susceptible to psychosomatic "illnesses".

I can accept that.

But the question was on whether a sceptic would be affected by a curse.

There are two "states" of the question to be asked though,
a. Are you aware of the curse and are you affected?
b. Are you NOT aware of the curse and are you affected?

If a., you *may* be able to explain away any result as being caused by anxiety.

I think evidence of b. would be more relevant to the question and much like many (failed) attempts to "prove" the opposite, that prayer cures.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I think there is one big difference between Beady's situation and a curse:

The bad job was a real thing. Whether rationally or not, you just hated that job, so the stress reaction you had was due to a real reason, and something you could not or would not change.

In contrast, if somebody throws a curse on you and you do not believe in curses, there is no stress factor. Even if you are a little anxious about it (we all have a little superstition in us), you will typically get over it, once you give it rational thought.

Hans

 

[joesixpack]

There are two "states" of the question to be asked though,
a. Are you aware of the curse and are you affected?
b. Are you NOT aware of the curse and are you affected?

Well, NO ONE can be affected by a curse that they don't know about, regardless of their scepticism. However, sceptic though I may be, I would probably be a bit unnerved by some creepy old lady puttin' the gris-gris on me or givin' me the mal'occio.

 

[jambo372]

Speaking of sceptics and curses :
Would a curse be elligible for the JREF Million Dollar Challenge.

Here is an example :
A voodoo doctor offers to place a curse on Randi and/or another JREF representative. If Randi and whoever else was cursed unexpectedly die or endure severe harm within a limited period after the curse has been placed, the person wins the prize.

 

[Ashles]

Speaking of sceptics and curses :
Would a curse be elligible for the JREF Million Dollar Challenge.

Here is an example :
A voodoo doctor offers to place a curse on Randi and/or another JREF representative. If Randi and whoever else was cursed unexpectedly die or endure severe harm within a limited period after the curse has been placed, the person wins the prize.

No because there would be no way to determine whether this was due to the curse or just plain coincidence.

Aside from the fact that it would be giving someone a milion dollar incentive to harm or kill another person.

 

[jmercer]

Jambo - No.
(TM, PixyMisa 2005)

Footnote to Jambo: If you don't know the JREF Challenge rules by now, you need to read them. JREF won't accept any test that includes the possiblity of harm or death to any persons.

 

[Suggestologist]

No because there would be no way to determine whether this was due to the curse or just plain coincidence.

Aside from the fact that it would be giving someone a milion dollar incentive to harm or kill another person.

Maybe an Enchantment (a positive curse, or ... the opposite of a curse) would work then. I suppose there would still be the coincidence problem.

 

[Beady]

Maybe an Enchantment (a positive curse, or ... the opposite of a curse) would work then. I suppose there would still be the coincidence problem.

Hmm. Remember in "Moby Dick," before setting sail, Ishmael runs across Elijah(?), who prophecies that Ahab will beckon and "all, save one" will follow to their deaths?

Would something like that be paranormal or coincidence? It prophecies death, but doesn't cause it, or harm.

 

[Beady]

No because there would be no way to determine whether this was due to the curse or just plain coincidence.

Well, in Randi's case it would certainly be coincidence. OTOH, you could argue that any positive result from prophecy is just coincidence, which effectively bars prophecy from the Challenge.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I wonder if insurance companies have actuarial statistics on curses as a cause of death?

One might expect the staff of those very companies to be unusually prone to the effect.

I submit that the mindset of the cursee is certainly relevant to the effect of a curse. A sceptic, knowing he is under a curse, may be at pains to prove he is unaffected by it. In so doing, he might become excessively cautious, or might alter his habits to avoid small accidents, normally ignorable, which might now be claimed as effects of the curse. As with any change in accepted habit, this could have harmful / stressful effects.

 

[Quinn]

However, sceptic though I may be, I would probably be a bit unnerved by some creepy old lady puttin' the gris-gris on me

Come spend some time in New Orleans, and you'll get over that real soon. Many of the homeless people here could be described as old and creepy, and they frequently put the gris-gris on me when I decline to give them money.

And incidentally, I routinely put curses on bad drivers, yet there never seem to be any fewer of them. Or does a barrage of profanity that would make a hooker blush not qualify as a proper curse?

 

[Ashles]

Come spend some time in New Orleans, and you'll get over that real soon. Many of the homeless people here could be described as old and creepy, and they frequently put the gris-gris on me when I decline to give them money.

And incidentally, I routinely put curses on bad drivers, yet there never seem to be any fewer of them. Or does a barrage of profanity that would make a hooker blush not qualify as a proper curse?

Actually come to think of it I have had curses put on me too.

There are annoying gypsy women who sometimes hang around in Leicester Square in London offering stupid bits of 'lucky' heather in little tin foil wrappers. If you say no you don't wish to buy one they tell you that they are cursing you.

Well that's a bit of a misuse of power isn't it?
If they actually had the power of cursing surely that's the equivalent of an armed mugging!

Anyway it appears to have done bugger all to me. Except making me absolutely detest people trying to sell me 'lucky' heather.

And if I was a magical gypsy woman and I had the power of magic I would possibly use it to make myself smell slightly less of wee.