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Cult mind control

osmosis

Critical Thinker
osmosis
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
445
Here's a subject I don't know whether to believe or not.

If you read a book about cult mind control, it will most likely make reference to such things as "brainwashing" and "hypnotism".

However, I've seen very convincing articles that brainwashing, in the sense of creating robotic control in people, does not exist. The same goes for hypnotism. Does it really exist, or doesn't it?

We're not talking about something that can easily be quantified. Clearly these subjects cannot rightly be viewed as scientific, but does that mean they don't exist at all?
 
Well, there are different definitions for hypnotism, so you need to state which you mean.

Can you link to the articles you mention or were they hardcopy?

I think you are mistaken when you say that these subjects cannot rightly be viewed as scientific, however without more information about how exactly you are defining hypnotism, I'm reluctant to comment any further.
 
Hypnotism certainly exists, although it is ridiculously misrepresented sometimes. Brainwashing also exists, although it does not create robot controlled people. I think there has been quite a bit of legitimate science about these subjects.
 
I suspect that brainwashing in the "Manchurian Candidate" sense is a long shot.

That being said, cults can do wacky crap to your brain. It's nothing paranormal or, sadly, even all that extraordinary, it's just that when you get people together in a relatively isolated pack, re-inforcing each other's behavior and beliefs, without anybody acting as a reality check...dude, people get weird, and they start agreeing on weird things, and once they've agreed on those weird things, the group reinforces the weird things, and it's hard to fight with the group. People may know full well that it's weird, but they're unwilling (or in bad cases, unable for fear of punishment) to stand up to the group.

Add to that the fasting and sleep deprivation that goes into a lot of cults--I remember reading a particularly gutwrenching interview with one of the survivors of the Jonestown massacre, who said something to the effect that when the vote to die took place, they were all exhausted, it was three in the morning, they'd been listening to Jones rave for hours, and the primary thought was "If we vote like he wants, maybe he'll calm down and we can get some sleep, because we have to get up at six in the morning."

Hell, you deprive ME of food and sleep, and I'll get really irrational in short order, even without fear of punishment from a madman.

So I wouldn't really call these things brainwashing, in the deep-mental-programming sense, I think they're more on the order of a kind of psychological and physical abuse that wears you down until your brain's pretty much jelly. A coupla solid meals, a week of sleep, and a few normal conversations with non-cult-humanity, and a lot of cult members go back to being regular human beings, albeit with the kind of deep-seated insecurities that lead you to join a cult in the first place.
 
What UrsulaV said.

Patty Hearst is a pretty good example of real-life brainwashing. After a few weeks of being locked in a closet and forced to listen to revolutionary slogans (out of context, without anyone there to give the other side of the story) she turned into a zombie with a machine gun. Another big factor in Hearst's case was that she was in real danger from her kidnappers and was therefore highly motivated to pay attention to their propaganda and understand it.
 
With regard to the definition of hypnotism, that's just it. I've never really seen a definition of hypnotism that made much sense. The best def. I know of is "a state of high suggestibility" but emphasis is placed that you can't make anyone do anything that is against their morality.

But can you twist and bend their morality?

I'd post some links but I'm too new right now.
 
Interesting subject.

I did a search and found this page: Mind Control: the BITE Model. He refers to this as "destructive mind control" but I find no mention of either hypnosis or brainwashing. The guy that wrote this is an ex-Moonie.

I also agree with UruslaV.
 
I think it is human nature to try to get along with the others around us.

I see this in small ways with my friends. I have core group of friends who like to drink a certain brand of beer and play a video hockey game a couple times a month. Once in a while we will make a new friend and they will start to hang out on "boy's night". Even though the new person may initially say they don't like the certain brand of beer or like to play this hockey game, within a few weeks they will be drinking the beer and playing along.

I think this is just normal behavior; it is just dangerous when you are hanging around "nut-jobs".

My friend and I actually tried to test this once. We decided to start pretending we liked a certain musical artist (that we knew our other friend did not like). The goal was to get him to follow along. We decided that a success would involve this person purchasing a CD with this artist's music on it. After 2 months (maybe 4-5 evenings) he showed up with a CD.

LLH
 
yeah, brainswashing is pretty readily observable if you accept it as something that can happen in degrees based on strength of personal beliefs and the amount of outside influence. i have had several friends that were very rational, but after working with some of my coworkers for years, they become more and more liberal to the point where, when being introduced to "loose change" they start spouting CTs and really take the woo to heart. i know this is a pretty minor example compared to a true cult, but i can apply that mild case to a situation where you are surrounded by almost no one except extremists and your belief system can be altered greatly.
 
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gfunkusarelius said:
... i have had several friends that were very rational, but after working with some of my coworkers for years, they become more and more liberal to the point where, when being introduced to "loose change" they start spouting CTs and really take the woo to heart...
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Liberalism has nothing to do with CTs. Conservatives have their share of CTs (Vince Foster suicide, anyone?), and Libertarians practically specialize in CT. I am Liberal, and I've been fighting the CT mentality for years.

As for cult brainswashing, we have fundamentalist Christian schools here in Tulsa that specialize in it. I'm not talking about your garden variety church-going, bible-reading Christian; I'm talking about the ones who stand on corners and yell at you, block abortion clinics, shout death threats at gay pride parades, and generally embarass mainstream religious people.

Maybe it would take sleep deprivation and fasting to get someone to bend their morality to accept something they previously considered wrong. For these Christian cultists (that's right, I said it. They're cultists), they come to these schools already believing in the Bible. It only takes group re-inforcement and the authority of their professors for them to accept an extreme and absolutist interpretation of the Bible. No sleep dep or fasting required. Maybe they couldn't be convinced to murder someone, but they can be convinced to do a lot of other crazy stuff. Certainly they exhibit other cultish behavior. They think they outside world is basically evil. They will sever ties to family members who do not have the same religious beliefs (in their defense, they are not necessarily told to do this, but they often do it anway). The will reject any rational discussion on any subject if it contradicts their strict interpretation of the Bible.

The scary thing is, in these parts, this is considered normal. At least, it's not too far off from the mainstream.
 
Try researching "LGAP's", "Large Group Awareness Programs". You'll find Scientology, EST, "The Forum", lots of others with 'sun shiney' names. Some Doctor named Phil too. Including Billy Graham. Benny Hinn uses the same tactics. Generaly, bore the audience to tears, then propose something 'interesting' to do- like , make a donation, make a promise... This tactic was discovered by a preacher in the US, in 1830?. Preach 'til you start to see heads nodding... sound familiar? sound accidental? Also, don't wait for the fish to actually feel better, tell them how much better off they are with your 'system', get them to promise to sign up more (times, fish, dollars...)
 
Consider this. All cultures/societies/groups brainwash their members, it is how they pass along the cultural/societal/group memes. It starts when you are a child and continues throughout your life.
 
kleinjahr said:
Consider this. All cultures/societies/groups brainwash their members, it is how they pass along the cultural/societal/group memes. It starts when you are a child and continues throughout your life.
Click to expand...

There are rational reasons for observing the laws and social norms, particulary in a society that allows me to voice my opposition if I disagree with those laws and norms. A cult is the opposite-- critical thinking is discouraged, and opposing viewpoints are suppressed. I don't think it's fair to compare them. In fact, I think viewing social norms as "brainwashing" leads to contrarianism (if most people believe it, it must be wrong), which is a contributor to CT.

That being said, I think it is healthy to take a critical look at our social norms. Are they fair? Are they reasonable and rational? But if I decide to observe social norms, am I brainwashed? Not necessarily.
 
kleinjahr said:
Consider this. All cultures/societies/groups brainwash their members, it is how they pass along the cultural/societal/group memes. It starts when you are a child and continues throughout your life.
Click to expand...

I agree, except I think the word brainwashed is a charged term. If you replaced it with the word "condition" it would probably go over better. :)

LLH
 
kleinjahr said:
Consider this. All cultures/societies/groups brainwash their members, it is how they pass along the cultural/societal/group memes. It starts when you are a child and continues throughout your life.
Click to expand...

Eh. Maybe in some sense, but my culture/society/group never starved me or made me go short on sleep until my brain was a fine layer of gruel coating the bottom of my skull.*

There's the cultural information passed on to any member of a given society, and then there's keeping you reciting mantras in the basement without letting you use the bathroom until you hand over all your money. Sure, maybe it's all variations of passing information along and rewarding acceptable use of that information, but only in the sense that a pat on the cheek and a roundhouse to the jaw are all variations on a spectrum too. In practice, there's a pretty substantial difference.



*I did this voluntarily in college, mind you, but it's not anything I can lay at the feet of deliberate mind control, unless the guys who invented Magic: The Gathering were way more subtle than I realized.
 
UrsulaV said:
*I did this voluntarily in college, mind you, but it's not anything I can lay at the feet of deliberate mind control, unless the guys who invented Magic: The Gathering were way more subtle than I realized.
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oooh... Magic. I played that from Fallen Empires till Alliances. That would have been an easy addiction to avoid, had it not been a good game design. ;) I played White/Blue, White/Red, or White/Blue/Black (when I was feeling weird) decks. What was your preference?
 
Bad things keep happening. Bad things keep happening to you. What is happening to you is beyond your control. There are outside influences controlling you. These outside influences are bad for you. That is why bad things keep happening to you. What happens to you is beyond your control. That is why you feel bad. That is why you feel things are getting worse. You have learned what is happening to you is beyond your control, there is nothing you can do about it.

I will take care of you. I will protect you from these bad outside influences. I will keep you safe. I will keep these bad outside influences from coming anywhere near you. I will keep you happy. I am the only good thing you have. Good things will happen to you when I take care of you.
 
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kleinjahr said:
Consider this. All cultures/societies/groups brainwash their members, it is how they pass along the cultural/societal/group memes. It starts when you are a child and continues throughout your life.
Click to expand...
Don't confuse brainwashingWP with socializationWP.

They might look similar, but socialization is a natural process and behavior exhibited in all social mammalian species. It is unconscious, and used for the benefit of the species, in order to teach the young how to survive.

Brainwashing is a conscious act, usually done to an unwilling participant, in order to change their thinking to that of the brainwasher.

BlackCat
 
Luke T. said:
Bad things keep happening. Bad things keep happening to you. What is happening to you is beyond your control. There are outside influences controlling you. These outside influences are bad for you. That is why bad things keep happening to you. What happens to you is beyond your control. That is why you feel bad. That is why you feel things are getting worse. You have learned what is happening to you is beyond your control, there is nothing you can do about it.

I will take care of you. I will protect you from these bad outside influences. I will keep you safe. I will keep these bad outside influences from coming anywhere near you. I will keep you happy. I am the only good thing you have. Good things will happen to you when I take care of you.
Click to expand...
Please -- where do I send the money? Take it. Just take all of it. And my worldly possessions.

But not the fuzzy toilet seat cover. (I freeze my buns for no man.)
 
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