Cult Archaeology

[Checkmite]

Archaeology fascinates me, it always has. There's something exceedingly cool about it. It's also an amateur hobby of mine, and I make a point of reading every single piece of material I can find on the subject.

For many people, the word "Archaeology" evokes images of advanced ancient civilizations and unimaginable technologies, surpassing our own - of visits from aliens in antiquity, of whole vanished continents, and of evidence that (insert preferred religion here) is the One, True Faith.

These topics are referred to as "cult" Archaeology. They include such elements as "ancient astronauts", pyramidology, ley lines, Atlantis and its derivatives Mu and Lemuria, "Agartha", statues of big heads on Easter Island, and all manner of Biblicana such as Noah's ark and the use of "slave labor" to build the monuments of Egypt. Many scholars are upset at the prevalence of such thinking in our world. On the contrary, I relish the occasion when these topics are mentioned, and I enjoy the opportunity to set my friends and peers straight. Many misunderstandings stem simply from a lack of knowledge about the culture involved.

This is your opportunity to ask me anything about your favorite cult archaeology topic. If I know the answer, I'll give it to you; if I don't know the answer, then I'll go find the answer and still give it to you. I only ask that you be specific with your questions. For example, don't ask "What about the theory that aliens visited the earth in ancient times?", because I can't write a book for you. Instead, ask something like "If Atlantis didn't exist, why did two different civilizations on opposite sides of the ocean build pyramids?" or "Why do the dimensions of the Great Pyramid contain such a wealth of mathematical and astronomical data?" This way, you'll save me typing time and research, and receive a better answer overall. Of course, if anyone else feels they can answer a question, they're completely welcome.

Questions, please!

 

[Iconoclast]

"Why do the dimensions of the Great Pyramid contain such a wealth of mathematical and astronomical data?"

This one's always fascinated me. I've seen several documentaries that go on about how certain tunnels point to certain stars and such thing, but is it all Kosher or is it simply a case of there being so many stars that these passageways have to line up with one of them?


[edited to remove one too many identical adjectives]

 

[Checkmite]

To start things off:

Plutarck said, in another thread,

Originally posted by Plutarck

I think far more pondersome is the ancient...Aztec, I think, drawings and stories and instructions and such of what seems to apparently be a machine with a man inside of that is controlling it.

Then again, it doesn't really seem all that "out there" that people who's key source of entertainment consisted of story telling managed to come up with the idea of machines.

Soapy Sam said that he was aware of the subject, but was under the impression that the drawing was Mayan.

My response:

Originally posted by me

The artifact in question is the sarcophagus lid of one Lord Pacal at Pelenque. He was Mayan.

Von Daniken asserted that the inscription depicts an astronaut in a spaceship, his limbs operating various inergonomically placed controls.

Actually, it depicts the Mayan leader at the moment of his death, falling into the jaws of an underworld monster (much as the sun does each day) - which, in the Mayan fashion, implies that (like the sun) Pacal will rise again. Above him is the sky, and growing out of his chest is the World Tree, a very important part of Mayan theology. This sarcophagus was discovered in the Temple of Inscriptions, which Pacal had built during his rule at Palenque.

Typical of Von Daniken's inconsistency, you'll notice that although all other drawings and carvings Von Daniken calls astronauts are called such because of their "obvious space suits and helmets", in this picture Pacal isn't wearing anything special - in fact, he's dressed exactly the way he was really buried, lavishly decorated with jade, but elsewise bearing a lot of flesh - hardly appropriate for an astronaut. His body is also sticking out of the alleged "rocket".

 

[Checkmite]

Re: Re: Cult Archaeology

This one's always fascinated me. I've seen several documentaries that go on about how certain tunnels point to certain stars and such thing, but is it all Kosher or is it simply a case of there being so many stars that these passageways have to line up with one of them?


[edited to remove one too many identical adjectives]

Naturally, the shafts in the Great Pyramid's King's and Queen's chambers are angled upwards, and so will point toward various regions of the sky. However, the cautious researcher will note that the shafts are not straight - that is, they bend within the depths of the pyramid, changing their angles to point at different regions of the sky than one standing within the chambers would assume. In addition, the sky is always moving. The tunnels, therefore, end up pointing specifically at many different stars during the course of the year. Although a few specific stars are allegedly "targeted" by the tunnels, I cannot as of yet find any reference to a specific "tunnel-targeted" star which is shown to be especially significant in ancient Egyptian record.

 

[Suspected Idiot]

Sort of off topic i guess, but I've often wondered if there has ever been evidence of a civilization / tribe that did not have a religion or worship gods? Temples and ceremonial burials seem to be a major source of information, but did some groups do away with these, or never developed them in the first place? I'm guessing not, but was there ever an ancient atheist tribe?

 

[Checkmite]

Sort of off topic i guess, but I've often wondered if there has ever been evidence of a civilization / tribe that did not have a religion or worship gods? Temples and ceremonial burials seem to be a major source of information, but did some groups do away with these, or never developed them in the first place? I'm guessing not, but was there ever an ancient atheist tribe?

Excellent question!!! Unfortunately, it will probably get the shortest answer of any question presented in this thread: I can't find a single reference to an originally atheistic civilization. The earliest atheists I could find were the ancient Greeks, among which atheist factions developed, but the idea never took hold of the people in their entirety. If you can find a reference that suggests something different...by all means, post it!

 

[Checkmite]

Orion and the Pyramids

Actually Iconoclast, your question reminded me of something.

There is a theory, originally proposed by Robert Bauval and expounded by Graham Hancock, that the pyramids of Giza were intentionally organized to represent the belt of Orion, the easily recognizable star constellation. This was "proven" by superimposing the image of Orion's belt over an aerial photograph of Giza.

Fit the two over each other, and they are quite compatible. There is a problem, however...

You see, the aerial photgraph of Giza is upside-down - that is, North is at the bottom and South is at the top; whereas the map of Orion is correctly oriented, with North at the top. If you were to actually stand on the Giza plateau and gaze southward over the pyramids as Orion rose above them, you would see that the angle is wrong - Orion's belt, from left to right, trails at an angle toward the north (toward you), while the pyramids trail off toward the south. This is a glaring error, and should effectively end the theory - but Bauval seems personally offended whenever his theory is questioned. See Hal Bidlack's sig...

 

[Denise]

Tell me about Pompeii sp. Was it always known to exist? If not, when was it discovered?

 

[Checkmite]

Tell me about Pompeii sp. Was it always known to exist? If not, when was it discovered?

For those who don't know (who doesn't?), Pompeii was an ancient Roman city destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. Because of its proximity to the volcano, Pompeii was quickly and completely buried by the eruption's pyroclastic flow (note: ask Tricky the Geologist to explain more about volcanoes and pyroclastic flow).

Yes, Pompeii was well-known at the time of its destruction. Several Roman ships stationed at a city called Misenum, directly across the Bay of Naples, witnessed the eruption and raced toward Pompeii to attempt rescue; unfortunately, many of them were destroyed as well.

We have an eyewitness account of the events, in the form of two letters from a man named Pliny to Tacitus, the historian. Pliny was the nephew of the Roman fleet commander at Misenum, who died during the rescue attempt.

Letters 1 and 2.

 

[magimix]

One point that has always interested me about this sort of thing is what, at times, appears to be the commonly held notion that our ancestors knew more than we did. So much in our literature, or in the treatises (probably a proper plural around somewhere!) of 'woo-woo' archeologists we see the notion of lost knowledge, of forgotten technology; wonders that would make our 'mundane' mordern take on things seem childish in comparison. This frequently seems to tie in with notions of blessed and advanced cultures; that somehow over time we are, on top of forgetting this miraculous knowledge, regressing over time, until at the end we will no doubt be scrabbling about in the dirt, not unlike the apes from 2001: A Space Odyssy - evolution in reverse, if you will.

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.

 

[Supercharts]

I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then?

 

[Denise]

Wow! I had no idea that there were first hand accounts. Thanks so much, I liked reading it , although, I can't say I enjoyed the terror.

 

[Checkmite]

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.

It seems to me the two schools of thought have seperate origins. As I read von Daniken's books, I get the feeling that despite his outward sense of "wonder" at ancient works, he really holds early civilization in contempt. There are hints of racism evident in his works as well - the Africans and South Americans must've had help from beyond, yet enigmas in white Europe, such as Stonehenge, draw very little attention from von Daniken. Others of his group may not be as racist or have as much contempt for ancient peoples; they are simply uneducated as far as early culture and civilization goes, and have a hard time understanding how loinclothed cavemen could manage such feats. The solution here is education - that the ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamians were alot more sophisticated than what they've been led to believe.

On the other hand, the "Golden Agers" school seems to have its origins in fear of technology. Belief in Atlantis As Technological Giant became prevalent in the 50's and early 60's, when nuclear paranoia was at its prime. The idea was nurtured that Atlantis developed technology of immense power and destroyed itself either with the technology, or through lack of respect for that technology. This was a drastic morphing of the Atlantis mythos - according to Plato (our only historical point of reference for Atlantis), Atlantis was destroyed by the gods for being unfaithful and thuggish. Notice how the message is warped. Plato intended the Atlantis story to serve as a parable of how pride can be disastrous when given free reign.

In the late 60s, and ever since, the New Age movement has looked to Atlantis as a source of affirmation of their beliefs. Edgar Cayce, the "sleeping prophet", described the technology of Atlantis as metaphysical, using crystals and magic. New Agers find Past Life Regression nearly always reveals a former incarnation as an Atlantean. The still-dangerous "crystal" technology has been implicated in the disappearances of ships and planes in the "Bermuda Triangle".

Over all, it becomes obvious that the New Agers - ready to reject the God of the Establishment, yet still yearning for something to fill their "spiritual" need - have twisted it into a new story of the Fall of Man, where the human pursuit of the forbidden fruit of Knowledge leads to his exhile from his Atlantean "Eden". The story of Atlantis has been hijacked and rehijacked like a thread in the R&P forum, with barely a shadow of the original form remaining. As such, I think Atlantis has more value from a psychological or sociological standpoint than an anthropological one.

 

[Checkmite]

I understand that ancient people ate with their hands. I understand that toilet paper is a recent invention. What's that all about then?

Uhh....that's not cult archaeology...you'd have to ask a professional about that one...

 

[Checkmite]

Wow! I had no idea that there were first hand accounts. Thanks so much, I liked reading it , although, I can't say I enjoyed the terror.

Are you kidding? That's the best part!

 

[Stainless_Steel_Rat]

I read somewhere that the stoneage village of Skara Brae actually had a rudimentary indoor plumbing system setup. Have you heard of this? I'm kinda curious how rare the setup would be considered for it's time period, if it were true.


SSR

 

[SRW]

Are you saying that this is not true?
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Joshua Korosi

statues of big heads on Easter Island

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I'm sure I have seen picture of this, or is it the idea that the
natives did not put them up that is in question.

Also I read a theory that the ancient people in South America
my have been able to construct rudimentary hot air balloons (no records of such). Because the weaving they did was so fine it could hold hot air.

That was put forth as a possible explanation of the geometric lines in the sands.

 

[Ian Osborne]

I've read at The Sphynx must be at least 10,000 years old because weathering on its surface indicate it existed when Egypt was much wetter. Sounds like a woo-woo to me, but can you shed any light on this?

 

[Liamo]

Joshua,

Another of von Daniken's ideas: the Baghdad batteries were used to power light bulbs such as the one depicted below.

Now, I understand that the batteries are posterior to the Egyptian civilisation, and it is doubtful it is an actual light bulb which is represented.

So the question is: what is that object?

Thanks,

Liam

 

[Akots]

Are you saying that this is not true?
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Joshua Korosi

statues of big heads on Easter Island

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I'm sure I have seen picture of this, or is it the idea that the
natives did not put them up that is in question.

I'd like to know about that myself, very much. Godness knows humans have never needed godo reasons to built things in their spare time, but is there ANY signifigance to them?

And do they really shoot laser rings out of their mouths, at passing spaceships...? Surely videogames haven't lied to me...