Cuba Cracking Down Hard on Dissidents

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by a_unique_person:

Castro appears to have had the intelligence to be one of the more benign dictators around. The more extreme dictators have been kicked out the first chance that people could remove them in other countries. Perhaps he is not hated so much.

Robert Mugabe is far from being a benign dictator, and he is still in place. So to would Saddam, were it not for the current military operations. Dictators don't need to be smart or benign, just able to maintain a critical level of fear among the populace.

 

[Q-Source]

I really don't think there is a problem with wanting to read anything you want to in Cuba. There are quite a few cuban students who visit the local university every year. A friend also did a course at the film institute thereand this is the first I have heard that books aren't allowed in Cuba. In fact they say that the problem is that very few books come to Cuba...publishers don't find it a lucrative market.

100% literacy apart, what are your opinions on health care plan...supposedly (by IMF's grudging admission no less) one of the best in the world.

There are many cheap books in Cuba, but most of them are focused on Communism, Economics, Jose Marti's poetry and Castro's speeches.

It is difficult to find new books or international best sellers because of the embargo, and the Cuban government cannot print them.

Of course, this gives the government total control of what should or should not be read in the country.

 

[Q-Source]

Castro appears to have had the intelligence to be one of the more benign dictators around. The more extreme dictators have been kicked out the first chance that people could remove them in other countries. Perhaps he is not hated so much.

You are right here.

Castro has a strong personality, intelligence and charisma.

There are many people in Cuba who support Castro's regime. Generally, these people are the old men and women who experienced the Revolution in the fifties and the very young children who are indoctrinated into Communism.

 

[headscratcher4]

It is difficult to find new books or international best sellers because of the embargo, and the Cuban government cannot print them.

Yes, and cuban's themselves can't print any indipendent analysis, econmic statistics, political opinions, art, poetry, make movies, write books not approved by the government, take public positions not approved by the government, produce TV shows not approved by the government...note the theme: "Note Approved By The Government..."

Edited to add: and, I am sure that most cubans have no access to the internet...so they can't join us here to defend Sr. Castro and his wonderful literary and healthcare policies...little less use their literacy to read things that the government might not want them to see....

That is the point...what international best sellers do you think the "government" would like to print?

So long as the government is the arbitor of what is acceptable, runs the printing plants, and punishes dissent with long jail terms, Cuba will continue to be a failed society....albeit with good healthcare and literacy...

The real question is: couldn't cuba have good healthcare without government oppression...the answer from Cuban apologists seems to be "no"...that's sad.

 

[aerocontrols]

The US House of Representatives

They voted last night on a resolution:

Stating the sense of the House of Representatives regarding the systematic human rights violations in Cuba committed by the Castro regime; calling for the immediate release of all political prisoners and supporting free elections for Cuba.

The vote was

414 aye
0 nay
11 present

The 11 'present' votes:

Frank Ballance
John Conyers
Jesse Jackson Jr.
Sheila Jackson-Lee
Eddie Bernice Johnson
Carolyn Kilpatrick
Barbara Lee
Ron Paul
Bobby Rush
Maxine Waters
Albert Wynn

 

[Q-Source]

Yes, and cuban's themselves can't print any indipendent analysis, econmic statistics, political opinions, art, poetry, make movies, write books not approved by the government, take public positions not approved by the government, produce TV shows not approved by the government...note the theme: "Note Approved By The Government..."

It is a Socialist regime, everything has to follow a process. Besides, many artists and writers cannot produce anything because of the embargo.

Edited to add: and, I am sure that most cubans have no access to the internet...so they can't join us here to defend Sr. Castro and his wonderful literary and healthcare policies...little less use their literacy to read things that the government might not want them to see....

No, they cannot access internet legally. But, there is nothing that Cubans do not know about what's going on outside their Island. As I've said before, the fact is that many of them support Castro and his socialist government.

That is the point...what international best sellers do you think the "government" would like to print?

Probably none against Fidel.

So long as the government is the arbitor of what is acceptable, runs the printing plants, and punishes dissent with long jail terms, Cuba will continue to be a failed society....albeit with good healthcare and literacy...

And who is going to make the difference?
Who decides if this can continue or not?
Have you seen La Plaza de la Revolution everytime Castro gives a speech?

The real question is: couldn't cuba have good healthcare without government oppression...the answer from Cuban apologists seems to be "no"...that's sad.

The answer is yes. Opression has nothing to do with efficiency...

 

[susheel]

TF,

I don't know how much of the 'oppression' is a spill over of measures put in place to prevent the breakdown of a welfare state. Capitalism isn't very conducive to this.

The primary fear in the Cuban administration is that introducing American style democracy into Cuba would reintroduce the heavily American supported feudal/capitalist machinery that the revolution ousted.

The entry of this machinary could mean the destruction of this very efficient system as IMF policies which place profits high on the list gain prominence.

Today Cubans have a health system which gives importance to health, this may give way to a system which gives importance to profits.

 

[Tony]

TF,

I don't know how much of the 'oppression' is a spill over of measures put in place to prevent the breakdown of a welfare state. Capitalism isn't very conducive to this.

The primary fear in the Cuban administration is that introducing American style democracy into Cuba would reintroduce the heavily American supported feudal/capitalist machinery that the revolution ousted.

The entry of this machinary could mean the destruction of this very efficient system as IMF policies which place profits high on the list gain prominence.

Today Cubans have a health system which gives importance to health, this may give way to a system which gives importance to profits.

So fascism and totalitarianism are ok as long as we have healthcare?

 

[susheel]

Definitely not. But then let me throw the question back, American style capitalism is fine even though people die of extreme poverty and are unabble to afford food or adequate health care. Though this may not happen in America it is seen in almost every other country where America has helped 'install democracy".

The thing is that one would have to look at Cuba as a passing phase. It is a nation that has a history and the present situation is a result of that history. It does not stop here. The ideal would be for Cuba to utilise the rather good infrastructure and maybe achieve prosperity through Socialism.

That is if Big Brother will get off it's high horse and withdraw that stupid embargo.

 

[Tony]

Definitely not. But then let me throw the question back, American style capitalism is fine even though people die of extreme poverty and are unabble to afford food or adequate health care. Though this may not happen in America it is seen in almost every other country where America has helped 'install democracy".

Death and misery are part of life, do you think America was as prosperous as it is now in 1800? 1900? HELL NO. Similar conditions existed in america, but the evolution of our society got us where we are today.


The thing is that one would have to look at Cuba as a passing phase. It is a nation that has a history and the present situation is a result of that history. It does not stop here. The ideal would be for Cuba to utilise the rather good infrastructure and maybe achieve prosperity through Socialism.

Isnt cuba a socialist state now?

That is if Big Brother will get off it's high horse and withdraw that stupid embargo.

I would like to see the embargo lifted and I dont have exact numbers, but I would bet a large portion of americans would be against that.

 

[susheel]

But America in its formative years did not have to contend with a strong feudal system based on class lines. Marxian socialism offers a solution to eradicating this. American style Capitalism does not even acknowledge its existence.

The 'vast majority' may only include the rich Miami Cubans, remnants of the deposed estate and factory owners.

 

[Tony]

But America in its formative years did not have to contend with a strong feudal system based on class lines.

Before I adress this, what do you mean when you say "strong feudal system based on class lines."



The 'vast majority'

I said large majorty, mabey like 60%. This is just a guess, feel free to prove me wrong, but Id bet it would be a majority.


may only include the rich Miami Cubans, remnants of the deposed estate and factory owners.

And many americans that lived through the Cuban Missle Crisis, a lot of conservatives, and anti-communists.

 

[headscratcher4]

It is a Socialist regime, everything has to follow a process. Besides, many artists and writers cannot produce anything because of the embargo.

So, to enforce socialist "process", a person should go to jail for 27 years for indipendently reporting economic statistics or for organizing a petition of the government?

I have said that the embargo is wrong. You are not seriously suggesting that without the "embargo" the Castro government and its socialist process would suddenly allow artists to publish what they like, speak their minds freely, report and write on any topic using their own judgement rather than the Party's?

As stated, the embargo is wrong...but to use it for an excuse to minimize the oppression of this one party, one man state is to be willfully blind. Ultimately, of course, the Cubans have to decide for themselves, but to claim that, in a controlled society, they have wilfully choosen oppression -- when there has been no open debate or discussion for 45 years -- seems to me to be using the kind of logic the Catholic church uses when it determines that once a Catholic always a Catholic and that the Pope is infalible.

You are so mad at the US, that you are practically willing to foregive all human rights abuses by any regime, so long as it is one that the U.S. opposes...it is too bad. I know, ultimately, I can't speak for the Cuban people, nor, certainly, can the US government. How sad for the Cuban people that they've got you to speak for them.

 

[headscratcher4]

P.S. -- is it just Cuba where the "socialist" process is ok? What about North Korea? They support their leader too...or else they wind up dead. I note that the North Korean press ALWAYS highly praises Castro...yes, you will be known by the friend you keep.

 

[Mike B.]

Well Headscratcher I think we have discussed this before.

It is bizzare the lengths that people will go to engage in apologetics for Castro. Putting people in jail for 27 years for being critical of him is alright because remember George Bush is a chimp!


Anyway,
I wonder if people would support right wing dictators who improve the living standards of their people. South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, all had right-wing dictators who improved literacy, life expectancy, lowered infant mortality, etc.

Would the same people that feel the need to defend Castro defend them? or is it only left-wing dictators that are folk-heros?

 

[Gregor]

what socialist claptrap

Susheel

What a load of dated, socialist bs that has been proven oh so wrong.

Socialism has been tried and has failed.

There are no aspects of the Cuban economy or society that are desireable. And it's not because of an embargo.

Cuba has no individual freedoms, personal property rights, profit motive. Since the USSR stopped paying it $3 billion a year just to exist, it has floundered.

Save your Das Kapital speeches for a 1960s retrospective board.

 

[Q-Source]

So, to enforce socialist "process", a person should go to jail for 27 years for indipendently reporting economic statistics or for organizing a petition of the government?

I was talking about artists and writers that require the government's supervision in order to produce something. They need to follow certain procedure to preserve the Socialist ideology. Besides, in a Socialist country, the means of production belong to the State, unless you change to capitalism you cannot decide entirely by yourself what, when and where to publish.

As far as I know, the reason why people went to jail was because they were doing CONSPIRACY against the Cuban state. Conspiracy is a federal crime that it is punished even in your country or my country.

I have said that the embargo is wrong. You are not seriously suggesting that without the "embargo" the Castro government and its socialist process would suddenly allow artists to publish what they like, speak their minds freely, report and write on any topic using their own judgement rather than the Party's?

Socialism or communism by itself does not require the elimination of freedom of speech. It is Castro who makes everybody stick to a communist ideology.

As stated, the embargo is wrong...but to use it for an excuse to minimize the oppression of this one party, one man state is to be willfully blind. Ultimately, of course, the Cubans have to decide for themselves, but to claim that, in a controlled society, they have wilfully choosen oppression -- when there has been no open debate or discussion for 45 years -- seems to me to be using the kind of logic the Catholic church uses when it determines that once a Catholic always a Catholic and that the Pope is infalible.

There are active dissidents inside Cuba who have been tolerated by the Government. In fact, Castro allowed Oswaldo Paya (the most notorious) to promote a proposal called "Proyecto Varela" to introduce some changes in the Law. He just got the support of 11000 people (in a country of 12 million).

You are so mad at the US, that you are practically willing to foregive all human rights abuses by any regime, so long as it is one that the U.S. opposes...it is too bad. I know, ultimately, I can't speak for the Cuban people, nor, certainly, can the US government. How sad for the Cuban people that they've got you to speak for them.

I don't speak for the Cuban people, I have seen and heard in Cuba that many people support the socialist regime and specifically Castro's role. However, it is true that people are limited in freedom of speech (as a consequence of the embargo and Castro's rules). But, I am totally for the right of Cubans to decide how they should rule their own country. It is now more than 40 decades of Socialism and nothing has changed....I wonder why?

BTW, I am just against USA's interventionism, it does not mean that I tolerate human right abuses.

 

[headscratcher4]

I was talking about artists and writers that require the government's supervision in order to produce something. They need to follow certain procedure to preserve the Socialist ideology. Besides, in a Socialist country, the means of production belong to the State, unless you change to capitalism you cannot decide entirely by yourself what, when and where to publish.

Sorry to be so dense -- are you merely describing the Cuban system or are you writing about this "process" with approval?

He just got the support of 11000 people (in a country of 12 million).

And, indeed, that is all he might ever get...however, given that he is spied on, harassed, that people who would associate with him would be cut off from jobs, could be subject to jail time, etc. How would we ever know? He got those signatures without the ability to advertise, to publish, print leaflets, petition government, getting anyone in the Cuban parliament to support him, etc. He did it by sure force of will and in the face of amazing official and un-official harassment, and in the face of the fact that most people who would sign such a petition could be subject to political and social reprisals.

My point is merely that the fact that he only got 11000+ signatures in a society as controlled as Cuba is a miracle...it would be like getting 11000+ signatures in Iraq -- prior to Yesterday, or 11000 signatures in the Soviet Union, China or North Korea. This was an act of bravery...the lack of signatures, you can't honestly argue, represents that the vast majority of Cubans are opposed to the petition, etc. We simply don't know because there IS NO WAY TO INDEPENDENTLY DETERMINE what Cubans think, feel, want or aspire to...it is a one party state, controlled economy without real discussion.

You and I, I suspect, would agree that the US should be hands off regarding Cuba. The embargo is not only wrong, it is embarrassing and detrimental to human rights.

But, at the same time, you can not tell me that the Cuban people have spoken because there has been no discussion or debate in Cuba...there is Castro's way, or the highway. Yes, I suspect there is a great residual of support for Castro...Hell, he might even be elected in a fair contest...but how would we know? He doesn't have to answer questions he doesn't want to. THe Cuban press doesn't point out alternative policies, theories, analysis that Castro doesn't want published. THe "arts" whether conditioned by embargo or not, reflects offical taste, not indipendent artisitic expression...

My point is that you hat US policy so much that you are willing to excuse a closed, stagnet oppressive system in order to stick a finger in the US eye...I don't like US policy either, but I truly believe that the Cubans should have the opportunity to continually debate and re-examine their own future...you seem to believe that they've made the decision and that decision is good for all time...but how would any one know what Cuban's really want, they can't talk about it openly. Period.

 

[aerocontrols]

Besides, in a Socialist country, the means of production belong to the State, unless you change to capitalism you cannot decide entirely by yourself what, when and where to publish.

...

Socialism or communism by itself does not require the elimination of freedom of speech. It is Castro who makes everybody stick to a communist ideology.

What does free speech mean to you, exactly? What you have presented is not what it means to me.

MattJ

 

[Q-Source]

Sorry to be so dense -- are you merely describing the Cuban system or are you writing about this "process" with approval?

Both. But I think you misunderstand what I mean. Let's say that you want to publish something of your own creativity, if the means of productions (material, printer, distribution, labor, etc) belong to the State, then you depend on what the government decides it is proper for the nation.

It happens the same in capitalism, the only difference is that you can choose among different options (publishers) and each one of them will determine its own criterion about what they want to promote whether or not you like it.

My point is that you hat US policy so much that you are willing to excuse a closed, stagnet oppressive system in order to stick a finger in the US eye...

Come on, my distaste for the US foreign policy does not determine my ideology. It goes in the opposite way.

...you seem to believe that they've made the decision and that decision is good for all time...but how would any one know what Cuban's really want, they can't talk about it openly. Period.

They made the decision to keep Fidel as President for 4 long decades!!!

Now, the decision to keep and tolerate a dictatorship for so long is incorrect and they know that they can change the status quo. In fact, it is a right that you can find in the Cuban Constitution. Proyecto Varela is a result of that right. But, the fact is that there is a strong apathy among the average population and cubans in Miami (who could do something) do not have the support of the Cubans in the Island.