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Crop circle debunking help needed

In response to the opening post... good point. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I think part of the answer is exactly that some of the limited number of circlemakers have come forward with credible confessions; whereas, it doesn't appear that even one of the hypothetical millions of govenment conspirators has come forward with credible whistleblowing.

The second thing is that while both 'conspiracy communities' would be concerned about prosecution for coming forward, the circlemakers *chose* to be conspirators; whereas, the government cover-uppers would include everthing from Pentagon phone contractors to the janitor in the flying saucer hanger, few of which would have volunteered for this.

The third thing is the assymetry of reward for breaking silence: the media would pay a small fortune for UFO evidence. I don't think they'd even follow up on an "I made the Pac-Man crop circle" confession.
 
kittynh said:
Some of you may know I work a lot with UFO and alien abductee believers.

One problem I have is with crop circles. WHen I talk about government conspiracy cover up (in regards to UFOs and aliens) I point out that with all the people involved, someone would talk. In fact lots of someones and honesty, can you see all the governments of the world cooperating on this "cover up"?

But eventually someone tells me that crop circles are REAL and done by aliens (they lose me hear, for all we know trolls could make crop circles). THey say "would all the poeple making these circles keep quiet?" I can point to the two nice old men that come forward, and some faked video, but for the number of circles I can't find much. I can find lots of explainations and lots of people that show how to make crop circles. But it seems that actual "I made THIS" confessions are few. Or maybe I don't know where to find reputable ones.


ALso, one lead I was following up (a member of a group that supposedly makes crop circles, though I never got a confession) told me "The reason you don't have more crop circle in the US is your farmers have more guns and aren't afraid to use them".

Any help is welcome. It seems if I can show "look anyone can make one" isn't the same as proving aliens didn't make them... sigh
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, under that philosophy, aliens are also responsible for poptarts and the popularity of Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga - not to mention Michael Jackson.
 
I would not be surprised if some of the farming villages in Southern England paid crop circle makers, and farmers to create crop circles. When they do, the town FILLS with crop circle watchers, filling the pubs and hotels.

Is it a coincidence that many crop circles happen to be visible from the local transit routes?
 
Marduk said:
so you can try
"If it was aliens why have none ever been caught by the police"
this should immediately bring the retort
"if it was humans why have none ever been caught by the police"
at which point you post this
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/police-unravel-mystery-of-the-crop-circle-621923.html

;)
Click to expand...
:D:D
steve s said:
If these were made by aliens, why would there be such a clear evolution in the shape of these things? Are we to believe that creatures smart enough to travel between the stars needed to start with very simple crop circles before moving on to more complex ones. The only reasonable explanation is that as the hoaxers gained experience, they were able to make more complex designs.
Click to expand...
This is all so glaringly, obviously true, that it is hard to understand why there are so many who will stubbornly continue to cling to the 'humans couldn't have done it' idea.
By the way, I would just like to mention that, being now someone who has walked within a formation, I can say with authority that the correct word is 'formations'!

Anyone want to join me for a crop formation outing next year? I'm keeping Olivier's e-mail address and said I'd contact him next year.
sophia8 said:
Circle makers can and do 'confess' - they even have their own website.
The Wikipedia article on crop circles has references for further research (although somebody needs to refute their claim that "scientists" have proved that some circle have unexplainable biological anomalies).
Click to expand...
The 'scientific' claims do seem to be rather elusiv

I have here an ear of wheat if anyone would like me to send it to them for analysis?!:)e!
 
SusanB-M1 said:
I have a friend in Yorkshire to whom I sent a copy of my crop formation visit. As she pointed out in her reply, funny how there are none up north, inspite of there being many large fields of suitable crops!;)
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Hi Susan. Although we don't get as many crop circles in Yorkshire, we do get them.

This year we have had:
1. Castle Hill, Huddersfield
2. Clifton, Brighouse
3. Sandal Castle, Wakefield
4. Sutton Bank, York
5. Stainborough Park, Barnsley

Was it Olivier Morel you went on your crop circle tour with?
ETA: Sorry I should probably track down and read the relevant thread. :)
 
kittynh said:
But eventually someone tells me that crop circles are REAL and done by aliens (they lose me hear, for all we know trolls could make crop circles). THey say "would all the poeple making these circles keep quiet?" I can point to the two nice old men that come forward, and some faked video, but for the number of circles I can't find much. I can find lots of explainations and lots of people that show how to make crop circles. But it seems that actual "I made THIS" confessions are few. Or maybe I don't know where to find reputable ones.
Click to expand...
The philosophy of circlemaking requires anonymity so admissions of which circles were made by which circlemaker are few and far between.

Some resources if you really want to learn about the history and progression of circlemkaing, I would recommend these 2 excellent books:

Round in Circles - Jim Schnabel
The Field Guide - Rob Irving & John Lundburg

kittynh said:
ALso, one lead I was following up (a member of a group that supposedly makes crop circles, though I never got a confession) told me "The reason you don't have more crop circle in the US is your farmers have more guns and aren't afraid to use them".
Click to expand...
This is true to an extent, but as farmers just don't catch circlemakers, it's a bit of a non issue.

kittynh said:
Any help is welcome. It seems if I can show "look anyone can make one" isn't the same as proving aliens didn't make them... sigh
Click to expand...
In my experience, the only way to convince anyone is to suggest you go with them and make a crop circle of your own. Get a good design and preferably someone who is aware of the techniques used. When people see that their formations are treat exactly the same as the mysterious ones, the penny starts to drop.

Arrests have come up in this thread too.
This guy: Matthew Williams is the only person to date who has ever been prosecuted for circlemaking, he was taken to court in 2000 and convicted of criminal damage and ordered to pay £150.
http://www.nhne.com/newsflashes/nfcropcirclearrest.html

Though several people have been "caught" by 'researchers over the years (including Rod Bearcloud and John Shuttleworth), including a very funny episode this year in Eastfield and another more serious one at East Kennett where a religiously motivated idiot crop circle researcher tried to make make a citizen's arrest and got his shoulder (and camcorder) damaged.
 
Stray Cat said:
Hi Susan. Although we don't get as many crop circles in Yorkshire, we do get them.

This year we have had:
1. Castle Hill, Huddersfield
2. Clifton, Brighouse
3. Sandal Castle, Wakefield
4. Sutton Bank, York
5. Stainborough Park, Barnsley

Was it Olivier Morel you went on your crop circle tour with?
ETA: Sorry I should probably track down and read the relevant thread. :)
Click to expand...

Thank you - I'll tell my Yorkshire friend.:) And, yes, it was Olivier Morel. Do you know him? Or his photography? The other info is in this post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167170&page=27
with the photo links in # 1069.
 
kittynh said:
Any help is welcome. It seems if I can show "look anyone can make one" isn't the same as proving aliens didn't make them... sigh
Click to expand...

No, but all is not lost. It does refute "aliens are the only explanation." It means they must accept that there are competing hypotheses:

  • all crop circles are man-made

    VS
  • some crop circles are man-made
 
SusanB-M1 said:
This is all so glaringly, obviously true, that it is hard to understand why there are so many who will stubbornly continue to cling to the 'humans couldn't have done it' idea.
Click to expand...

The answer is simple :faith. They have faith in their explanazion and won't let it go, no matter how much of the "gap" are clarified.
 
Aepervius said:
The answer is simple :faith. They have faith in their explanazion and won't let it go, no matter how much of the "gap" are clarified.
Click to expand...
Balance that with a complete lack of faith in human ability and there you go.
 
blutoski said:
In response to the opening post... good point. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I think part of the answer is exactly that some of the limited number of circlemakers have come forward with credible confessions; whereas, it doesn't appear that even one of the hypothetical millions of govenment conspirators has come forward with credible whistleblowing.

The second thing is that while both 'conspiracy communities' would be concerned about prosecution for coming forward, the circlemakers *chose* to be conspirators; whereas, the government cover-uppers would include everthing from Pentagon phone contractors to the janitor in the flying saucer hanger, few of which would have volunteered for this.

The third thing is the assymetry of reward for breaking silence: the media would pay a small fortune for UFO evidence. I don't think they'd even follow up on an "I made the Pac-Man crop circle" confession.
Click to expand...

THIS was MOST helpful! THe point is it's not a "lot" of people keeping a secret, and that "secret" isn't worth all that much.
 
"Humans did it" remains the Occam's Razor response, no matter how complicated the motif. I always laugh when someone shows me a "too-complicated-to-be-man-made" crop circle, using their decidedly uncomplicated laptop. LOL
 
OverlapingMagisteria said:
You can also mention that the earliest crop circles were admitted hoaxes. Two guys named Doug Bower and Dave Chorley started it off in England and confessed they had been making them since 1978.
Click to expand...

Small correction - while Doug and Dave can be credited with creating the modern crop circle phenomenon, there are various records of crop circles from before them. I think the earliest reliable one is from the 1700s, and there are other things that could be seen as mentioning them from much earlier than that. Obviously there's no evidence left of the circles, so it's impossible to say if they were hoaxes or just natural events that happened to leave vaguely circular shapes.

So while we can't be sure whether Doug and Dave were the first to actually make crop circles, they definitely weren't the first to have the idea of crop circles. The aliens may actually be copying some 18th century peasants instead.
 
kittynh said:
THIS was MOST helpful! THe point is it's not a "lot" of people keeping a secret, and that "secret" isn't worth all that much.
Click to expand...
Most importantly: While there may be a lot of circlemakers worldwide, they are not united, and few know each others. They are mostly small separate groups.

There are three groups in this.

One is, obviously, the belivers.

The circle makers is, of course, another.

Then there are 'Cerealogists'. These are self-appointed crop circle specialists, who travle around 'investigatind' crop circles, write books, and generally try their best to look sage.

Obviously all three groups thrive on each other. The believers want to belive in something. The circle makers need the audience. The 'Cerealogists' need them all, plus they need to maintain the mystery, because the title "Pranksters in the Grain" won't sell that many books.

Farmers: Mostly, I don't think they care much. Modern harvesting equipment can get a fair yield even from flattened grain (grain is often flattened by rain, naturally), so the loss is not great, and the general spectacle is entertaining. Some may even charge pople for entering a crop circle in their field. Anyhow, what can they do? The idea that a hard-working farmer can patrol his extencive fields by night, every night, and keep circlemakers away, is deeply naive.

I have a final punchline for thos who claim that farmers would chase human circlemakers away: The other day, I saw a city train. It was decorated over most of its lenght, and over the windows, by a huge grafitti painting. Now, I happen to know that the trains are parked at night in fenced-in and spotlight-lit areas, patrolled by guards with dogs.

- So surely aliens must have decorated that train? :rolleyes:

Or, if spray-can grafitti makers can manage, despite fairly vigiliant guarding, to decorate a whole train, surely crop circle grafitti makers can get awat with making patterns way out in the middle of the country-side, while most farmers get their well-earned sleep!

Hans
 
Cuddles said:
So while we can't be sure whether Doug and Dave were the first to actually make crop circles, they definitely weren't the first to have the idea of crop circles. The aliens may actually be copying some 18th century peasants instead.
Click to expand...

Doug and Dave got the idea to make crop circles from the Tully UFO nests widely reported in the late 60's. Doug had lived in Australia at the time and was intrigued by the small round depressions left in grass and proclaimed by some to be the landing sites of flying saucers.

It is true to say however, that it was Doug & Dave's work that brought crop circles to the attention of the world's media and kickstarted started the innovation that has continued in their design and complexity over the past 30 years.
 
Drewbot said:
I would not be surprised if some of the farming villages in Southern England paid crop circle makers, and farmers to create crop circles. When they do, the town FILLS with crop circle watchers, filling the pubs and hotels.

Is it a coincidence that many crop circles happen to be visible from the local transit routes?
Click to expand...

I rather think it is not!:D
 
I'm an Alien from planet ^^*^^ My ship can travel at a squillion miles per hour. Today I have arrrived at Earth. I shall therefore be leaving home next week, sometime. This gives me ample time to plan the announcement of my arrival... Got it!, I'l make crop circles!! This will be suitable evidence to those Earthlings of my advanced technology. I think I will hide from them as well... Makes sense to me!

Oh bum, it's winter. No Crops..Best get back home before I leave
 
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