Crime ain't no cause for punishment.

Mirrorglass said:
Yeah, that is a point where we differ. I don't think human rights depend on being a law-abiding citizen. Of course criminals lose some things, like personal freedom, but that's out of necessity. They still keep their basic rights, no matter how awful people they are.

Human rights aren't something one has to earn. They are something I feel must be given freely to everyone. If I didn't consider everyone worthy of those rights, I wouldn't be worthy of them myself.
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I agree human rights are to be given freely, but only to the extent that you acknowledge the same rights in others.
If you don't follow the simple rules of a society, you have no place in it.
 
some of the convicted felons I know have little fear of prison. They don't care for it, but don't spend all that amount of time trying to not go back by following the law.
Arrests are just speed-bumps in their lives, with some time off from living while in jail.
These are not the brightest bulbs in the lamp.
Education rather than punishment might help change their lives, but for adults, that is a voluntary choice.
Making it mandatory just fills in the day for them, they get nothing from it.
 
Mirrorglass said:
To me, this is ridiculous. While I understand the feelings of wanting to take revenge on a criminal, the idea isn't logical. Expending any resources to "punish" a criminal is simply a form of cruelty, and wasteful too. The purpose of any sentence should be to minimize the damage done to society. This is best achieved by doing everything possible to hasten the prisoner's rehabilitation, or when that is impossible, creating an environment where the prisoner can still achieve some level of usefulness. Punishment, as such, serves neither goal. And then there's the whole human rights part of the problem.

So what are other people's opinions on this? Should the prisons be places for punishing criminals? Does it matter whether or not they suffer?
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I agree. Chop 'em up for spare part surgery.
 
I Ratant said:
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Many criminals are born here.
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I was using the first definition from the online dictionarty -
Deport - To expel from a country.

Probably could have used exile or banish instead, since they don't imply that it's an alien that you're deporting.
 
Wrathernaut said:
I was using the first definition from the online dictionarty -
Deport - To expel from a country.

Probably could have used exile or banish instead, since they don't imply that it's an alien that you're deporting.
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The colony of Georgia, Dry Tortugas, French Guiana, Australia.. all filled up with convicts.
No space left.
The Argentinians got rid of their convicts/political dissidents by flying them out to sea and pushing them out of the airplane at 5,000 feet.
 
I Ratant said:
.
The colony of Georgia, Dry Tortugas, French Guiana, Australia.. all filled up with convicts.
No space left.
The Argentinians got rid of their convicts/political dissidents by flying them out to sea and pushing them out of the airplane at 5,000 feet.
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See what happens when the parasites are removed from the host? They man up and turn out OK, well, three out of four ain't bad.
 
fuelair said:
I'm guessing - and I stress that point - that you have never had a close family member murdered, beaten until they could no longer fully function, raped or otherwise badly damaged by another "person".
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Aye, and there's the rub. I have a close friend whose son was murdered for some jewelry. The killers have not been caught yet -it's been a year and a half - and the murder haunts my friend. The search for the cold hearted killer's consumes much of his spare time. A detective who was almost on the scene heard the killers laughing as my friend's son staggered away with blood spurting from his carotid artery.

I have no problem with drastically reducing the number of offenses that result in jail time - without the "war on drugs", for example, our prisons would be a lot less crowded - but for violent offenders, or sexual offenders, there is no freakin' way that the majority of citizens are going to agree to anything less than long prison sentences. The "it doesn't do any good" argument will hold no water for those who understand that the punishment is as much for the loved ones of the victims as it is to keep these violent offenders off of the streets.

I hope they catch these scumbags, and put them in prison for the rest of their lives. Perhaps then my friend's nightmares will begin to fade, and his wife will be able to function normally once again. Though they did not hear it themselves, the laughter of those vicious predators rings in their ears every second of their lives.
 
I have many beefs with the prison system.

My ex husband's sister was in and out of county at various times for various reasons -- none of them a violent crime, mind you -- and all going to prison did was make her (and her kids) more dependent upon welfare. It didn't "reform" her, and it didn't "deter" her from her behavior. She just tried a little more to not get caught after each "visit" and, even then, not very much harder as she viewed her 30 days in county as more of a vacation than anything else --3 hots, a cot, and cable tv, all on the gov't's dime. If jail was anything to her other than that "vacation" it was a really great way to make new connections with other criminals, and give her just that much more of a contact list when she got out. A trade conference for those involved in the illegal drug industry, if you will. She always came out of a stay at county with at least 3 more friends who could "hook her up" with whatever it was she was looking for (usually meth).

Throughout all her time bouncing in and out of jail, not once did anyone (judge, social worker, etc.) look at WHY she was committing crimes, and try to address that. They just shoved her in a cell and tried to ignore the problem. I think that prison is a really great way for society to ignore it's problems. And because we're spending so much time and money ignoring those problems, we're not addressing them, so more and more people end up in jail every year. If we were to spend that money on research about why people commit crimes, and then spend money on the alleviation or prevention of the conditions that lead someone to commit crimes... Lets just say I think that would be a much better solution than just chucking someone into a jail cell the moment they put down a foot even the slightest bit wrong.

I actually feel that jails exacerbate the situation, in that jails seem to breed bigger and badder criminals. The guy who gets tossed in for possession, ends up walking out with not just a supply line, but a steady job dealing for the gang he had to join to keep from being beat up (or worse).

I also think that the idea of jail being a deterrent is laughable. It's obviously not much of a deterrent -- our jails are over-full to the point of bursting. I think the purpose of jails should be the protection of the public. For example, when someone is dangerous enough that allowing them to remain a part of society is too high a risk to the people who would be around that person. Serial killers, for instance. In those cases, where even the undertaking of rehabilitation poses too much of a risk to the general public, that's when we should be locking someone up.

Anyway... Yes, I think calling it the "department of corrections" is a huge joke.
 
SkeptiChick said:
I have many beefs with the prison system.....
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I don't think many are disagreeing with your point about jailing people for drug offenses here. And I don't think that practice is going to last for much longer in the U.S., anyway, as the older generation retires and/or passes away - all that will be left will be an electorate who have lived with the fact of drug's all their lives, and have a much more reality-based view on the whole problem.
 
SonOfLaertes said:
Aye, and there's the rub. I have a close friend whose son was murdered for some jewelry. The killers have not been caught yet -it's been a year and a half - and the murder haunts my friend. The search for the cold hearted killer's consumes much of his spare time. A detective who was almost on the scene heard the killers laughing as my friend's son staggered away with blood spurting from his carotid artery.

I have no problem with drastically reducing the number of offenses that result in jail time - without the "war on drugs", for example, our prisons would be a lot less crowded - but for violent offenders, or sexual offenders, there is no freakin' way that the majority of citizens are going to agree to anything less than long prison sentences. The "it doesn't do any good" argument will hold no water for those who understand that the punishment is as much for the loved ones of the victims as it is to keep these violent offenders off of the streets.

I hope they catch these scumbags, and put them in prison for the rest of their lives. Perhaps then my friend's nightmares will begin to fade, and his wife will be able to function normally once again. Though they did not hear it themselves, the laughter of those vicious predators rings in their ears every second of their lives.
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From your lips to the proper ears. And may the slime be well educated.
 
I don't think that drug crimes should even be crimes. There is no victim, the whole thing is ridiculous. I also think that we should focus more on rehabilitation for non-violent criminals. That would leave plenty of room for the scumbags that belong in prison. I say don't even worry about trying to rehabilitate murders and rapists, just throw them in prison for life, automatic sentence. I don't really care if that would work as a deterrent. Society would get its vengeance, and the scumbags wouldn't be able to hurt the general population again.
 
dtugg said:
say don't even worry about trying to rehabilitate murders and rapists, just throw them in prison for life, automatic sentence. I don't really care if that would work as a deterrent. Society would get its vengeance,....
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Why should society "get its vengeance"? Why is vengeance a good thing?
 
It isn't. That's why the statutes defining what justice ministries/departments can do say zero about avenging society.

(Or if any do, I'd be interested to see that)
 
I've gotten pretty much the responses I've expected. It seems we're somewhat divided on whether or not society should "take revenge" on the criminals or not.

I'd like to ask the ones who believe that vengeance is important: putting aside the deterrent question, do you have a basis for the opinion apart from "the criminals deserve it"?

Oh, and I don't mean to belittle your views. I'm simply interested in hearing the full argument of the view opposing me.
 
Mirrorglass said:
I've gotten pretty much the responses I've expected. It seems we're somewhat divided on whether or not society should "take revenge" on the criminals or not.

I'd like to ask the ones who believe that vengeance is important: putting aside the deterrent question, do you have a basis for the opinion apart from "the criminals deserve it"?

Oh, and I don't mean to belittle your views. I'm simply interested in hearing the full argument of the view opposing me.
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Yes, my second point still stands. It may be desirable for people to get over their need for revenge, but it won't happen soon. Looking at the world as a whole, on a broader timescale, populations and sub-populations who feel that the law doesn't provide punishment closure tend to enact that punishment themselves. I think it's too optimistic to expect society to outgrow it.

If your daughter has been raped and you know who the perpetrator is and know that the government will do nothing to punish the rapist, you would have to be gigantically zen to not want to make that punishment happen. If violent criminals are not punished to some extent, there will be vigilantism.
 
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