Creationists switch from pushing ID to... "critical thinking"?

Interesting, the governor refused to sign the bill or veto it. What a wimp. I pity the children.

He refused to sign it because he knows it will probably be overturned in the courts, and he doesn't want his name on it. He also doesn't want to be known as the governor who wasted millions of the taxpayers' money on a lost cause.
 
He refused to sign it because he knows it will probably be overturned in the courts, and he doesn't want his name on it. He also doesn't want to be known as the governor who wasted millions of the taxpayers' money on a lost cause.
Then why not veto it? I say wimp.
 
I live in TN. I have 2 kids in high school and 1 in middle school. I'm extremely upset about his law. I welcome suggestions on how to deal with such stupidity - no, I cannot move :mad:
Teach the controversy** to your children yourself.



**Controversy in this case is the Bible pushers successes in the courts when they failed in the scientific community.
 
They got humiliated during kitzmiller v. dover and hopefully they'll get humiliated again.

looks like its time for Round 2 :D
It'll be a while. First the parents of a child whose teacher tries to claim there is a controversy over evolution theory will have to file a complaint.
 
Teach the controversy** to your children yourself.

**Controversy in this case is the Bible pushers successes in the courts when they failed in the scientific community.

Yes this. Your children will need to be prepared for what they *might* encounter if they are in biology, and perhaps earth-sciences. It wouldn't hurt to plan some visitations to the biology class to see what the atmosphere and teaching is like, even if your kids aren't planned to be there in the upcoming year. Gathering data is important. Also contact the NCSE to see if/how your family can be of use to them and any legal case they may determine needs to be brought; Tammy Kitzmiller is, rightly, a heroine for allowing herself and her daughter to be used legally.
 
They got humiliated during kitzmiller v. dover and hopefully they'll get humiliated again.

looks like its time for Round 2 :D

Actually about round 7. But the keyword you used above is "hopefully". The legal system is always a crap shoot. Clarence Darrow couldn't get Scopes off, and that law stayed in force until Sputnik gave the conservative fundamentalists a choice between evils to make. The outcome of a legal match is never guaranteed; Dred Scott decisions are always a possibility.
 
The annoying thing, I feel, is that there are so many actual controversies in evolutionary biology that are infinitely more interesting than whether or not God had a hand in the creation of the universe.

While I do care about creationists lying about what I do for a living, I don't really care if there is or is not evidence for God or creation or whatever. The phylogenies I reconstruct, and the species I describe, and the evolutionary processes I speculate on work perfectly fine without divine interference, but would not change one bit if there was unequivocal evidence that it was all God's doing after all. There would still be evidence for colour-changing in peppered moths, and beak-size changes in Darwin's finches, and the loss of eyes in cave fishes, and all the other stuff. I would still get the same phylogenies based on the same data, and I would still find the same morphological differences between the same specimen. It simply does not really matter.

What does matter is that the focus is put on the wrong things. The world is wonderful, and animals and plants and physics and chemistry and geology and so on is awesome whether it's all God's doing or not. Pyrosoma won't stop being a jet-propelled sea squirt colony you can swim into, Symbion pandora won't stop having the weirdest life cycle known to mankind, the Rift Lake cichlids won't stop being amazingly diverse, scorpions won't stop glowing under UV lights, the Emperor Tamarin won't stop always giving birth to twins and signalling each other with their long, blue tongues, and Volvox won't stop being one of the most beautiful plants in existence (1) just because you add/subtract God to/from the world.

Even if we were to grant that discussions of God are relevant to biology, the "controversy" over his/her existence must surely be the dullest of all controversies in evolutionary biology. A top ten list of the greatest debates in the history of evolutionary biology would not include that of God's existence. Does orthogeny exist? Punctuated equilibrium or continualism (or both)? Can "ancient asexuals" exist, and if so what does that imply? Allopatric, peripatric or sympatric speciation? What about despeciation and respeciation? What is a "species"? Or a "genus"? Is there a difference between "parallelism" and "convergence"? Why does sex exist? Even the seemingly dull, but oh so prismatic, "Is a species a set or an element?"-debate is more interesting than the question of God, as is the (sort of still ongoing) discussion on paraphyly.

The list could go on for pages, without finding an controversy or an argument that is not both more intellectually fulfilling than the creationism/theories-based-on-data-from-the-real-world-and-actual-logic debate. These are all rewarding debates that would be interesting and relevant to biology whether or not God exists.

It may very well be that some god steered evolution to produce us, or even that everything was created to look as if evolution happened. The God hypothesis is after all just one step less parsimonious than any non-god hypothesis. But why does that matter in the least? Regardless of the answer to the question, "Does God exist?", we still have data which can be, and should be, sorted, analysed, and explained with non-divine methods.

You should be allowed to start your first lecture on evolutionary biology by just saying: "God may exist; he may also not exist. That is entirely irrelevant to this class. Now: do ancient asexuals exist?"

---
(1) Note: This is an opinion.

Good god, you said a mouthful. I may have to nom it because it was damn good.

The weird thing is that the study of God is so mind crushingly boring, yet the study of "His" creation is so fascinating. I'm not religious, but if I was, I would resent any time spent studying dusty old religious texts as long as there were ants or even one plant.

The insistence of the fundamental religious type to focus on a particular creation myth or a particular 'holy' book, to the exclusion of all others, is arrogant at least, and disingenuous even from what I should think would be a legitimate approach for the sincerely religious.

Mostly, we study the conqueror's history and religion. Learning about wood frogs transcends all that...or it certainly should.
 
The Discovery Institute chimes in:

Quote:
“This law is needed for two reasons,” explained Casey Luskin an attorney with Discovery Institute’s Center for Science & Culture. “First, unfortunately many science teachers around the country are harassed, intimidated, and sometimes fired for simply presenting scientific evidence critical of Darwinian theory along with the evidence that supports it."

Seeing as how it only takes this . . . long to present all of the valid scientific evidence critical of evolutionary theory, I suspect that the harassment, intimidation, and sometimes firing is due more to those teachers being ignorant and dishonest. Or Luskin is simply lying.
 
Seeing as how it only takes this . . . long to present all of the valid scientific evidence critical of evolutionary theory, I suspect that the harassment, intimidation, and sometimes firing is due more to those teachers being ignorant and dishonest. Or Luskin is simply lying.

Ah, but you added the word valid. That changes things completely!
 
So nuclear weapons are God's cleansing wrath!


Most definitely. How else are you expected to take revenge on the apes who ransacked your underground city? May the Blessings of the Bomb Almighty, and the Fellowship of the Holy Fallout, descend upon us all.
 
Then why not veto it? I say wimp.

Agreed. If you disagree with the law, put you're name on that fact, and let the legislature override the veto. Then they wear it if it goes tits up. I think he expects it won't stand up, but is having an each-way bet, since it's not clear whether that's the case or not, and doesn't want to piss people off either way.
 
fishbob said:
Seeing as how it only takes this . . . long to present all of the valid scientific evidence critical of evolutionary theory, I suspect that the harassment, intimidation, and sometimes firing is due more to those teachers being ignorant and dishonest. Or Luskin is simply lying.
I'd say lying. I've known a lot of scientists, and a lot of paleontologists. While none of us has any respect for Creationism (for exactly the same reason we don't have respect for, say, bloodletting as a cure for disease or geocentrism), we've all got better things to do than harass Creationists.

What they take as harassment is actually the recognition of objective fact: that Creationism is fundamentally a religious position and a political movement. The few statements by the Creationist in this thread demonstrate that. No actual data was provided--merely a list of names and a reference to one researcher (not the work by that researcher, but the researcher himself). In contrast, if you ask a scientist to support their position they'll give you citations, data, experiments to perform, etc. The difference is that scientists don't care how many people agree or disagree; the data are the only things that matter (well, ideally anyway). Creationism cannot stand on the data, and thus focuses on the people.
 
Seeing as how it only takes this . . . long to present all of the valid scientific evidence critical of evolutionary theory, I suspect that the harassment, intimidation, and sometimes firing is due more to those teachers being ignorant and dishonest. Or Luskin is simply lying.

John Freshwater was fired for teaching creationism according to himself. The school board might think it had more to do with burning a cross into students's arms.
 
I live in TN. I have 2 kids in high school and 1 in middle school. I'm extremely upset about his law. I welcome suggestions on how to deal with such stupidity - no, I cannot move :mad:

Simple. Contact the local Scientology church and inform them that under this law their religious views can be taught in TN public schools. Same for the Muslims, Raelians, Transcendental Meditationists, etc. Get every crackpot, nutty, fringe religion to join in the fun.

If any schools refuse to "teach all views", sue the hell out of them under this law.

Make the TN politicians choke on their own law, and when they've had enough maybe they'll wise up and repeal it.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom