Creationist argument about DNA and information

I can't imagine a doctor laughing at the thought of evolution.


"evolution, what's that? For the 678th time (in this Forum), Post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?

Have you heard of Begging The Question (Fallacy)? 99.9% of your post offers many Textbook examples of it...

It gets brought up in grand rounds often enough when discussing antibiotic resistance.


Ahhh, where'd you get the things that are Resisting? And where'd you get the things making the Antibiotics...?


The topic also affects our C/S rates in that women with failure to progress who would have previously died in childbirth that now survive making it more likely that the C/S rate will increase despite our best efforts to reduce that rate.


What is this?


Genetic screening and testing indirectly addresses evolution looking for risk factors for hereditary traits.


"Genetic", where'd you get Genes? Start here...

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
That's just the Hardware!

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

Conclusion from the Grand Poobah's of OOL Research...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

2. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?


I'm not certain how you could miss the environmental pressures that continue to shape us


Where'd you get the "US" from...?


If you ignore the possibility that evolution is real then you've created your own research bias.


If I ignore the possibility that Invisible Fire-Breathing Dragons are real then I've created my own research bias.

I can live with that! :thumbsup: One less Argument from Utter Ignorance to deal with.

How do you think we've managed to develop different breeds of dogs, cats, cows, horses, etc.....before anyone knew what DNA was?


Artificial Selection.


There was a concept there for evolutionary change.


What is 'evolutionary change', "change change"?

I really don't understand why you find the theory of evolution so impossible or repugnant, I'm not really certain what your issue is with the theory.


Well I've been asking people from all over the world and Professors representing many disciplines from the hallowed halls of academia the question for over 5 years now, without a single coherent response...

What is the Scientific Theory of evolution...?

Apparently, this question is a 'call to arms'... Name Calling and Ad Hominems :rolleyes:
The EXACT same thing happens when I go "ALL IN" against a Bluffer with Deuce-Seven Off Suit :cool:


regards
 
Daniel: The repeated demand for a definition of TOE dates from at least Sept 2014

"evolution, what's that? For the 678th time (in this Forum), Post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?
For the 678th time (in this Forum and others!) the inane, repeated demand for what Daniel already knows exists even if he has denied it for years :jaw-dropp!

Lies by quote mining; some actual lies; cherry picking; ignorance; unsupported assertions; and begging the question is all we have from Daniel since he started posting. 68 items in the list :eek:!

9 March 2016 Daniel: A lie by quote mining Mayr 1988: 162 (he provides his definition of evolution in the next sentence that you mined out)
27 April 2016 Daniel: A fantasy of abiogenesis = cancer biology where Daniel highlights the biology part of Paul Davies CV.
27 April 2016 Daniel: Cherry picks Paul Davies (again!) stating his opinion that artificial life can be created - just not by the bottom-up approach of organic chemistry.
8 March 2016: Tolls points out the actual subject of the Paul Davies article to Daniel which is a proposal to create life from the top-down.
28 April 2016 Daniel: Repeats a lie abut the theory of evolution not being defined or tested when he has been supplied with the definition and evidence many times in several threads.
28 April 2016 Daniel: Links to a deluded web site rather than science - the use of "Darwinism" is a hint!
28 April 2016 Daniel: An implied lie by linking to "First News" which has reposted a blog entry from an intelligent design idiot, thus hiding the ignorance behind the link.
28 April 2016 Daniel: The repeated (and insane since he has the answer) demand for a definition of the scientific theory of evolution dates from at least 28 September 2014 in another forum.
 
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So here is the crux of the matter, the scientific theory of evolution undeniably exists. Daniel cannot contest that. That isn't the aspect he is contesting though, the key part he is contesting is the "scientific" part. He has his own definition of science that differs from the rest of the world. What Daniel should be posting is:

"Please send me the danielscience theory of evolution"

Daniel, instead of wasting everyone's time with this repeated query, just be honest and keep it simple. You reject the scientific method as understood by the vast majority of scientists and educators.

And just in case for some reason, he actually does care about learning:
http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Third-Douglas-J-Futuyma/dp/1605351156
 
"evolution, what's that? For the 678th time (in this Forum), Post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?

Have you heard of Begging The Question (Fallacy)? 99.9% of your post offers many Textbook examples of it...

The first hit that defines Darwin's Theory of evolution states:

The theory of evolution by natural selection, first formulated in Darwin's book "On the Origin of Species" in 1859, is the process by which organisms change over time as a result of changes in heritable physical or behavioral traits.

Assuming DNA has predetermined patterns, or "software", as you call it we would have long been dead without some versatility in the DNA to allow for adaptations to our environment.

Just because there isn't a definite method discovered for abiogenesis shouldn't take away from what we can see in the recent past and what continues to happen today. Evolution never stopped.

Ahhh, where'd you get the things that are Resisting? And where'd you get the things making the Antibiotics...?

As above, there are several theories for how it all started but it doesn't really impact what you see happening with mutations that create an increase in virulence. That is an evolving change to adapt to their environment.

What is this?

C/S = Cesarean section. As I was pointing out, the C/S rate has increased world wide. The main reason cited is for failure to progress although I doubt all of them are truly for that reason. I am a nurse-midwife and my C/S rate is equal to the physicians in my practice despite my philosophy of non-intervention.

My conclusion is that for every patient that truly ends up with failure to progress and a subsequent C/S increases the chance that her type of pelvis will be passed onto her daughters, granddaughters, and on down. I don't think we will ever see a decrease in the C/S rate.

"Genetic", where'd you get Genes? Start here...

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
That's just the Hardware!

Nothing I've read says it's impossible, they simply don't know how it happened.

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

There is no proof, only theories, and it looks like you've selectively ignored the evidence that supports spontaneous abiogenesis.

Conclusion from the Grand Poobah's of OOL Research...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

You ignored the " by presently known chemical reactions" part of that sentence.

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

2. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?

There is no software for atoms. The concept we use to describe atoms and quarks are man made constructs to visualize the math involved. It depends on what behavior you want to describe as to what theory you need to use to describe that behavior but I've never seen those theories called software. If it were so we would have a unified theory that explained all phases at once and I don't think the analogy of "software" would do that description justice. Not to mention that we can only perceive 4% of the universe. If you can't locate the rest of the universe I think it's safe to say those theories are incomplete at best.

Where'd you get the "US" from...?

US as in humans.

If I ignore the possibility that Invisible Fire-Breathing Dragons are real then I've created my own research bias.
I can live with that! :thumbsup: One less Argument from Utter Ignorance to deal with.

No one is totally free from bias, however, recognizing that bias is the first step in seeing deeper than what is immediately obvious.

Artificial Selection.

Whether it's artificial or natural, it makes no difference, change is the inevitable result. I take it your religious and what I'm getting out of your argument is that all change is artificial as a result of a creator's will. I think there is a creator too but I think creation is somewhat left to chance, hence free will.

What is 'evolutionary change', "change change"?

The theory of evolution by natural selection, first formulated in Darwin's book "On the Origin of Species" in 1859, is the process by which organisms change over time as a result of changes in heritable physical or behavioral traits.


Well I've been asking people from all over the world and Professors representing many disciplines from the hallowed halls of academia the question for over 5 years now, without a single coherent response...

What is the Scientific Theory of evolution...?

The theory of evolution by natural selection, first formulated in Darwin's book "On the Origin of Species" in 1859, is the process by which organisms change over time as a result of changes in heritable physical or behavioral traits.

Apparently, this question is a 'call to arms'... Name Calling and Ad Hominems :rolleyes:
The EXACT same thing happens when I go "ALL IN" against a Bluffer with Deuce-Seven Off Suit :cool:


regards

I don't play poker but I do love slots and the roulette wheel. The only thing I'm certain of is that we know nothing in the grand scheme of things. I'm sure that we don't understand everything involved in evolution but so far it's one of the best researched theories out there leaving little reason to doubt it as a mechanism for allowing life to adapt and survive.
 
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"evolution, what's that? For the 678th time (in this Forum), Post the Scientific Theory of Evolution"
This mantra was humorous the first few times; it has evolved to become a pathetic demonstration of ignorance.
 
fraction of what are known as the laws of physics.

…look…! (spend 30 seconds here…just for example: http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/laws/ )

Then tell me that ‘something’ besides ‘intelligence’ could even begin to create that! I’m not interested in how…nobody has a clue how we do it (or what ‘it’ even is) so ‘how’ is academic. It is simply what is called a normative fact. The l.o.p. are a paradigm of incomprehensible complexity. Nobody with even a gram of ‘intelligence’ would even begin to suggest that anything besides ‘intelligence’ could possibly be responsible for such a ‘thing’.
This is a classic non sequitur; you need to study a little logic.
 
For the 678th time (in this Forum and others!) the inane, repeated demand for what Daniel already knows exists even if he has denied it for years :jaw-dropp!

Lies by quote mining; some actual lies; cherry picking; ignorance; unsupported assertions; and begging the question is all we have from Daniel since he started posting. 68 items in the list :eek:!

9 March 2016 Daniel: A lie by quote mining Mayr 1988: 162 (he provides his definition of evolution in the next sentence that you mined out)
27 April 2016 Daniel: A fantasy of abiogenesis = cancer biology where Daniel highlights the biology part of Paul Davies CV.
27 April 2016 Daniel: Cherry picks Paul Davies (again!) stating his opinion that artificial life can be created - just not by the bottom-up approach of organic chemistry.
8 March 2016: Tolls points out the actual subject of the Paul Davies article to Daniel which is a proposal to create life from the top-down.
28 April 2016 Daniel: Repeats a lie abut the theory of evolution not being defined or tested when he has been supplied with the definition and evidence many times in several threads.
28 April 2016 Daniel: Links to a deluded web site rather than science - the use of "Darwinism" is a hint!
28 April 2016 Daniel: An implied lie by linking to "First News" which has reposted a blog entry from an intelligent design idiot, thus hiding the ignorance behind the link.
28 April 2016 Daniel: The repeated (and insane since he has the answer) demand for a definition of the scientific theory of evolution dates from at least 28 September 2014 in another forum.

:thumbsup:
 
"evolution, what's that? For the 678th time (in this Forum), Post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?

It has been posted countless times. Nobody here can make you read it, all we can do is watch aghast as you ignore all responses in favour of belief in the tooth fairy.
 
There is no proof, only theories, and it looks like you've selectively ignored the evidence that supports spontaneous abiogenesis.


You're Equivocating the colloquial "theory" (Speculation) with "Scientific Theory". Scientific Theories are...

A Scientific Theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. {emphasis mine}
http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm

A Scientific Theory consists of one or more hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. {emphasis mine}
http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/hypothesis-theory-or-law/

A Scientific Theory represents an hypothesis, or a group of related hypotheses, which has been CONFIRMED through REPEATED EXPERIMENTAL TESTS. {emphasis mine}
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/appendixe/appendixe.html

You can't have a Scientific Theory without it ALREADY being Validated (Proof) by Experiment.

Scientific Theories "Explain"....The HOW (mechanism/process) Specifically.

There is no evidence that supports spontaneous generation/abiogenesis. You heard of the Law of Biogenesis?


The first hit that defines Darwin's Theory of evolution states:

The theory of evolution by natural selection, first formulated in Darwin's book "On the Origin of Species" in 1859, is the process by which organisms change over time as a result of changes in heritable physical or behavioral traits.


1. Look @ the definition above for Scientific Theory, is this an Actual Scientific Theory ??

2. So the mechanism is "change as a result of changes"? :rolleyes:

3. Natural Selection...

Is a Contradiction in Terms. To be able to "SELECT" you must have the ability to REASON; Sentience and Intelligence...is "Nature" Alive??

Natural Selection is a "Concept"; Non-Physical/Immaterial. "Concepts" aren't Mechanisms.
It's Tantamount to claiming that the "Race for Space" (Concept) was the Mechanism for the Apollo 11 Lunar Module, or Freedom (Concept) developed the Battle Plans for the Revolutionary War.

William Provine Cornell University Professor, evolutionary Biology.....

"Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. NATURAL SELECTION DOES NOTHING….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets."
Provine, W., The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics (University of Chicago Press, Re-issue 2001), pg. 199-200

"Natural selection does not shape an adaptation or cause a gene to spread over a population or really do anything at all. It is instead the result of specific causes: hereditary changes, developmental causes, ecological causes, and demography. Natural Selection is the result of these causes, not a cause that is by itself. It is not a mechanism."
Shermer, M., The Woodstock of Evolution (The World Summit on Evolution); Scientific American, 27 June 2005
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-woodstock-of-evolutio/

4. Begging The Question: where'd you get 'heritable' i.e., Genes?


Assuming DNA has predetermined patterns, or "software", as you call it we would have long been dead without some versatility in the DNA to allow for adaptations to our environment.


1. Software isn't 'Patterns', Software is "Information".

2. Assuming?? It's a tad bit more than an Assumption...

"Over the next sixty minutes I explained how life ultimately consists of DNA-driven biological machines. All living cells run on DNA SOFTWARE, which directs hundreds to thousands of PROTEIN ROBOTS. We have been digitizing life for decades, since we first figured out how to read the SOFTWARE of life by sequencing DNA. Now we can go in the other direction by starting with computerized digital code, designing a new form of life, chemically synthesizing its DNA, and then booting it up to produce the actual organism." {emphasis mine}
Craig Venter PhD Geneticist (NIH, Celera Genomics)
http://www.sciencefriday.com/blogs/10/24/2013/dna-the-software-of-life.html

"DNA has two types of digital information — the genes that encode proteins, which are the molecular machines of life, and the gene regulatory networks that specify the behaviour of the genes."
Hood, L., Galas, D.,: The Digital Code of DNA: Nature 421, 444-448 (23 January 2003) | doi :10.1038/nature01410

Nobody is claiming that DNA isn't Chock Full of 'Contingencies' (your 'versatility") and is one of the quintessential attributes of Purposeful Design.


Just because there isn't a definite method discovered for abiogenesis shouldn't take away from what we can see in the recent past and what continues to happen today.


Method discovered? It's not even a Viable Scientific Hypothesis because you have no "Independent Variables". You (they) also skipped the First Step of the Scientific Method: Observe a Phenomenon. It's not "Conjure a Phenomenon" then make up "Just So" Stories. :boggled:

What can you see in the recent past?


As above, there are several theories for how it all started but it doesn't really impact what you see happening with mutations that create an increase in virulence. That is an evolving change to adapt to their environment.


You mean there are several Scientific Law Violating "Blind" Speculations.

"Mutations"...of what? That wasn't part of the "theory" you proposed above.


C/S = Cesarean section. I am a nurse-midwife


Ahhh OK.


Nothing I've read says it's impossible, they simply don't know how it happened.


You're reading the wrong material.


You ignored the " by presently known chemical reactions" part of that sentence.


So 'we just don't know'? So the support for your position is:

1. Argument from Ignorance (Fallacy).
2. Argument to the Future (Fallacy).

??

We DO KNOW, it's Physically and Chemically Impossible for the Hardware: "The Physical Molecules needed for Life" AND even More Importantly...for the Creation of Information.
Information/Code/Software is only ever ever ever sourced by Intelligent Agency, without Exception!!


There is no software for atoms.


Correct. There is no Software/Information in atoms. Software/Information is Semiotic; i.e., it's assigned to it. Atoms/molecules are merely "The Medium" used to convey Information. Like Ink and Paper in a Book.


The concept we use to describe atoms and quarks are man made constructs to visualize the math involved.


So we use Math...(Abstract Concepts), to "Describe" the Physical? That's all good (to a point) but if you need "Explanations", it's of No Use.


It depends on what behavior you want to describe as to what theory you need to use to describe that behavior...


As mentioned previously, Scientific Theories "Explain" they don't "Describe"...Scientific Laws do that.
You're in a simple category error.


but I've never seen those theories called software.


Have you read through this thread? You do understand that DNA contains Metric Tons of Information/Software, right ??


I don't think the analogy of "software" would do that description justice.


It's not an Analogy; SEE Dr. Venter and Dr. Hood above and...

"Genes are not analogous to messages; genes are messages. Genes are literal programs. They are sent from a source by a transmitter through a channel (Fig. 3) within the context of a viable cell. They are decoded by a receiver and arrive eventually at a final destination. At this destination, the instantiated messages catalyze needed biochemical reactions. Both cellular and extracellular enzyme functions are involved (e.g., extracellular microbial cellulases, proteases, and nucleases)." {emphasis mine}
Abel, DL., Trevors, JT., Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric; Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling 2005, 2:29; doi:10.1186/1742-4682-2-29



Not to mention that we can only perceive 4% of the universe. If you can't locate the rest of the universe I think it's safe to say those theories are incomplete at best.


1. What "theories" ??

2. You're using Arguments from Ignorance (Fallacies).

3. My points are based on what WE DO KNOW, not what we don't.



No one is totally free from bias, however, recognizing that bias is the first step in seeing deeper than what is immediately obvious.


True.


Whether it's artificial or natural, it makes no difference, change is the inevitable result.


It does, One has Purpose (End Goals and Contingency), the other is Deaf as a Post.


I take it your religious...


Nope. I'm a Christian.


and what I'm getting out of your argument is that all change is artificial as a result of a creator's will.


No, that's not what I'm saying.


I think there is a creator too


Outstanding!!


but I think creation is somewhat left to chance, hence free will.


How can Creation be Chance? Creation doesn't speak to our Free Will.


The only thing I'm certain of is that we know nothing in the grand scheme of things.


We do know some things and I agree there is much we don't...but the 'much we don't know', doesn't negate or preclude what we do know.



I'm sure that we don't understand everything involved in evolution


Like what it actually is for starters. ;)


but so far it's one of the best researched theories out there leaving little reason to doubt it as a mechanism for allowing life to adapt and survive.


It's not and it's not a "Scientific Theory" as illustrated...it's a "Just So" Story, In TOTO.


regards
 
Jodie, I admire the effort, and I think you've made good and reasonable points, but I think it should be obvious by now that discussion with Daniel is a wasted effort, even for the benefit of lurkers- anyone who can be convinced by Daniel's yammerings is already beyond reaching. When someone answers "I take it you're religious" with "nope, I'm a Christian," you know you're dealing with someone who has no problem at all re-defining even the most basic of terms so he can justify his position. Creationists are speshul people to begin with- Daniel is even more speshul than most. It's like the old saw says- there's no reasoning with people whose position isn't, by definition, a reasonable one.
 
You're Equivocating the colloquial "theory" (Speculation) with "Scientific Theory". Scientific Theories are...

A Scientific Theory summarizes a hypothesis or group of hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. {emphasis mine}
http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm

A Scientific Theory consists of one or more hypotheses that have been supported with repeated testing. {emphasis mine}
http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/hypothesis-theory-or-law/

A Scientific Theory represents an hypothesis, or a group of related hypotheses, which has been CONFIRMED through REPEATED EXPERIMENTAL TESTS. {emphasis mine}
http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/appendixe/appendixe.html

You can't have a Scientific Theory without it ALREADY being Validated (Proof) by Experiment.

Scientific Theories "Explain"....The HOW (mechanism/process) Specifically.

There is no evidence that supports spontaneous generation/abiogenesis. You heard of the Law of Biogenesis?

1. Look @ the definition above for Scientific Theory, is this an Actual Scientific Theory ??

2. So the mechanism is "change as a result of changes"? :rolleyes:

3. Natural Selection...

Is a Contradiction in Terms. To be able to "SELECT" you must have the ability to REASON; Sentience and Intelligence...is "Nature" Alive??

Natural Selection is a "Concept"; Non-Physical/Immaterial. "Concepts" aren't Mechanisms.
It's Tantamount to claiming that the "Race for Space" (Concept) was the Mechanism for the Apollo 11 Lunar Module, or Freedom (Concept) developed the Battle Plans for the Revolutionary War.

William Provine Cornell University Professor, evolutionary Biology.....

"Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. NATURAL SELECTION DOES NOTHING….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets."
Provine, W., The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics (University of Chicago Press, Re-issue 2001), pg. 199-200

"Natural selection does not shape an adaptation or cause a gene to spread over a population or really do anything at all. It is instead the result of specific causes: hereditary changes, developmental causes, ecological causes, and demography. Natural Selection is the result of these causes, not a cause that is by itself. It is not a mechanism."
Shermer, M., The Woodstock of Evolution (The World Summit on Evolution); Scientific American, 27 June 2005
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-woodstock-of-evolutio/

4. Begging The Question: where'd you get 'heritable' i.e., Genes?

1. Software isn't 'Patterns', Software is "Information".

2. Assuming?? It's a tad bit more than an Assumption...

"Over the next sixty minutes I explained how life ultimately consists of DNA-driven biological machines. All living cells run on DNA SOFTWARE, which directs hundreds to thousands of PROTEIN ROBOTS. We have been digitizing life for decades, since we first figured out how to read the SOFTWARE of life by sequencing DNA. Now we can go in the other direction by starting with computerized digital code, designing a new form of life, chemically synthesizing its DNA, and then booting it up to produce the actual organism." {emphasis mine}
Craig Venter PhD Geneticist (NIH, Celera Genomics)
http://www.sciencefriday.com/blogs/10/24/2013/dna-the-software-of-life.html

"DNA has two types of digital information — the genes that encode proteins, which are the molecular machines of life, and the gene regulatory networks that specify the behaviour of the genes."
Hood, L., Galas, D.,: The Digital Code of DNA: Nature 421, 444-448 (23 January 2003) | doi :10.1038/nature01410

Nobody is claiming that DNA isn't Chock Full of 'Contingencies' (your 'versatility") and is one of the quintessential attributes of Purposeful Design.

Method discovered? It's not even a Viable Scientific Hypothesis because you have no "Independent Variables". You (they) also skipped the First Step of the Scientific Method: Observe a Phenomenon. It's not "Conjure a Phenomenon" then make up "Just So" Stories. :boggled:

What can you see in the recent past?

You mean there are several Scientific Law Violating "Blind" Speculations.

"Mutations"...of what? That wasn't part of the "theory" you proposed above.
Ahhh OK.

You're reading the wrong material.

So 'we just don't know'? So the support for your position is:

1. Argument from Ignorance (Fallacy).
2. Argument to the Future (Fallacy).

??

We DO KNOW, it's Physically and Chemically Impossible for the Hardware: "The Physical Molecules needed for Life" AND even More Importantly...for the Creation of Information.
Information/Code/Software is only ever ever ever sourced by Intelligent Agency, without Exception!!
Correct. There is no Software/Information in atoms. Software/Information is Semiotic; i.e., it's assigned to it. Atoms/molecules are merely "The Medium" used to convey Information. Like Ink and Paper in a Book.
So we use Math...(Abstract Concepts), to "Describe" the Physical? That's all good (to a point) but if you need "Explanations", it's of No Use.
As mentioned previously, Scientific Theories "Explain" they don't "Describe"...Scientific Laws do that.
You're in a simple category error.
Have you read through this thread? You do understand that DNA contains Metric Tons of Information/Software, right ??
It's not an Analogy; SEE Dr. Venter and Dr. Hood above and...

"Genes are not analogous to messages; genes are messages. Genes are literal programs. They are sent from a source by a transmitter through a channel (Fig. 3) within the context of a viable cell. They are decoded by a receiver and arrive eventually at a final destination. At this destination, the instantiated messages catalyze needed biochemical reactions. Both cellular and extracellular enzyme functions are involved (e.g., extracellular microbial cellulases, proteases, and nucleases)." {emphasis mine}
Abel, DL., Trevors, JT., Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric; Theoretical Biology and Medical Modelling 2005, 2:29; doi:10.1186/1742-4682-2-29
1. What "theories" ??

2. You're using Arguments from Ignorance (Fallacies).

3. My points are based on what WE DO KNOW, not what we don't.
True.

It does, One has Purpose (End Goals and Contingency), the other is Deaf as a Post.
Nope. I'm a Christian.
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Outstanding!!
How can Creation be Chance? Creation doesn't speak to our Free Will.
We do know some things and I agree there is much we don't...but the 'much we don't know', doesn't negate or preclude what we do know.
Like what it actually is for starters. ;)
It's not and it's not a "Scientific Theory" as illustrated...it's a "Just So" Story, In TOTO.
regards

All of the above babbling indicates that you have no understanding of the meaning of the term scientific theory.

LINK
 
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Daniel, I've already explained how it doesn't matter if the scientist is the one modifying an independent variable. All that matters is that they can observe the independent variable being modified and observe the results. With your definition, volcanology could not be a science because someone could not create their own volcano.
 
All of the above babbling indicates that you have no understanding of the meaning of the term scientific theory.

LINK


Initially, I was going to ignore your juvenile "Hand-Wave" dismissal 'One-Liner' fly-by Generalized Sweeping Baseless 'bare' Assertion Fallacy BUT...

I was caught off-guard and sorta shocked when I noticed your 'link' wasn't the Standard "Wiki" Link offering :rolleyes:...you know, the per usual (SOP) Inundation of it ;). So I took the liberty of checking the "Wiki" Link for Scientific Theory....

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.[1][2] Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[3]

It is important to note that the definition of a "scientific theory" (often ambiguously contracted to "theory" for the sake of brevity, including in this page) as used in the disciplines of science is significantly different from, and in contrast to, the common vernacular usage of the word "theory". As used in everyday non-scientific speech, "theory" implies that something is an unsubstantiated and speculative guess, conjecture, or hypothesis;[4] such a usage is the opposite of a scientific theory. These different usages are comparable to the differing, and often opposing, usages of the term "prediction" in science (less ambiguously called a "scientific prediction") versus "prediction" in non-scientific vernacular speech, the latter of which may even imply a mere hope."


[1]. National Academy of Sciences, 1999.
[2]. "The Structure of Scientific Theories" in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
[3]. Schafersman, Steven D. "An Introduction to Science".
[4]. National Academy of Sciences, 2008.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

I guess now...we KNOW WHY, eh? :covereyes


Thanks!! :thumbsup: and, oy vey
 
Initially, I was going to ignore your juvenile "Hand-Wave" dismissal 'One-Liner' fly-by Generalized Sweeping Baseless 'bare' Assertion Fallacy BUT...

I was caught off-guard and sorta shocked when I noticed your 'link' wasn't the Standard "Wiki" Link offering :rolleyes:...you know, the per usual (SOP) Inundation of it ;). So I took the liberty of checking the "Wiki" Link for Scientific Theory....

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.[1][2] Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[3]

It is important to note that the definition of a "scientific theory" (often ambiguously contracted to "theory" for the sake of brevity, including in this page) as used in the disciplines of science is significantly different from, and in contrast to, the common vernacular usage of the word "theory". As used in everyday non-scientific speech, "theory" implies that something is an unsubstantiated and speculative guess, conjecture, or hypothesis;[4] such a usage is the opposite of a scientific theory. These different usages are comparable to the differing, and often opposing, usages of the term "prediction" in science (less ambiguously called a "scientific prediction") versus "prediction" in non-scientific vernacular speech, the latter of which may even imply a mere hope."


[1]. National Academy of Sciences, 1999.
[2]. "The Structure of Scientific Theories" in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
[3]. Schafersman, Steven D. "An Introduction to Science".
[4]. National Academy of Sciences, 2008.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

I guess now...we KNOW WHY, eh? :covereyes


Thanks!! :thumbsup: and, oy vey
Indeed:

From the American Association for the Advancement of Science:

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact
.
 
Daniel, I've already explained how it doesn't matter if the scientist is the one modifying an independent variable. All that matters is that they can observe the independent variable being modified and observe the results.
:boggled:


You also told me to "Invalidate MWI" and in the very next breath stated...

"They are called interpretations and not theories because they are not falsifiable" :jaw-dropp
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11193178&postcount=321


Ahhh Professor, this is 5th Grade General Science...

"The independent variable is the core of the experiment and is isolated and manipulated by the researcher. The dependent variable is the measurable outcome of this manipulation, the results of the experimental design."
https://explorable.com/research-variables

"The independent variable is the one you, the "scientist" control and the dependent variable is the one that you observe and/or measure the results."
http://www.csub.edu/~ddodenhoff/Bio100/Bio100sp04/formattingahypothesis.htm

"In an experiment, the independent variable is the variable that is varied or manipulated by the researcher, and the dependent variable is the response that is measured."
http://www2.uncp.edu/home/collierw/ivdv.htm


Thanks for "Hammerin the c4 Fire" again. :thumbsup:

With your definition, volcanology could not be a science because someone could not create their own volcano.


It's not Science; Crocheting is more Scientific. :cool:

p.s. it's not MY definition.

Time to go..."Back to the Lab" ?? :rolleyes:


regards
 
Initially, I was going to ignore your juvenile "Hand-Wave" dismissal 'One-Liner' fly-by Generalized Sweeping Baseless 'bare' Assertion Fallacy BUT...

I was caught off-guard and sorta shocked when I noticed your 'link' wasn't the Standard "Wiki" Link offering :rolleyes:...you know, the per usual (SOP) Inundation of it ;). So I took the liberty of checking the "Wiki" Link for Scientific Theory....

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method and repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation.[1][2] Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[3]

It is important to note that the definition of a "scientific theory" (often ambiguously contracted to "theory" for the sake of brevity, including in this page) as used in the disciplines of science is significantly different from, and in contrast to, the common vernacular usage of the word "theory". As used in everyday non-scientific speech, "theory" implies that something is an unsubstantiated and speculative guess, conjecture, or hypothesis;[4] such a usage is the opposite of a scientific theory. These different usages are comparable to the differing, and often opposing, usages of the term "prediction" in science (less ambiguously called a "scientific prediction") versus "prediction" in non-scientific vernacular speech, the latter of which may even imply a mere hope."


[1]. National Academy of Sciences, 1999.
[2]. "The Structure of Scientific Theories" in The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
[3]. Schafersman, Steven D. "An Introduction to Science".
[4]. National Academy of Sciences, 2008.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

I guess now...we KNOW WHY, eh? :covereyes


Thanks!! :thumbsup: and, oy vey
What is your position vis-a-vis Lenski?
 

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