Creationist argument about DNA and information

[Daniel]

By definition, an omniscient and omnipotent creator could do that - the question is why such a being would give us the gifts of reason and observation and leave the evidence in the rocks and starlight that would lead one to the conclusion that the universe is 15-billion years old and the Earth is 4.5-billion years old.

HE didn't, you're conjuring them.

Go ahead and post the "Scientific Evidence"....? That is, Post the Formal Scientific Hypothesis and Experiment for Each Claim that Validates it....?
Highlight the "Independent Variable" Used in the TESTS for each....?

Oh and just in case you're wondering...Ipse Dixits from people with 'alleged'---- Scientific Initials behind their names don't count as "SCIENTIFIC Evidence".


regards

 

[Daniel]

Which you take on faith

No, I take it on HIS WORD.

And Biblical "Faith" (which you are attempting to Equivocate with your fairytale belief system: "Blind Scientifically Falsified Faith") is based on Substance and Evidence...

(Hebrews 11:1) "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

I dare you to start a thread to discuss it. You won't because you know it's indefensible.

I don't do: Philosophies, Cake Decorating, and Who's Favorite Color is the Best threads. Which is where Divining "Ages" and playing the "Dating Game" belongs.


regards

 

[Daniel]

Thanks for the straightforward answer.

You're welcome.

I strongly recommend that you read up on 19th Century geology, which, being an infant science is understandable to laypeople.

geology isn't "SCIENCE"; Crocheting is more Scientific.


regards

 

[MikeG]

No, I take it on HIS WORD.........

How do you know it's his word?

 

[marplots]

Do you have a substantive cogent argument by chance?

No, not by chance.

Any argument I proposed would be a product of my culture, my opinions, and based on the work of others - work as available to you as I. Neither of us can claim to be free of such influences and we both accept propositions we find reasonable, suggested by other thinkers.

The fact that we both use substantially the same meta-method and yet reach irreconcilable conclusions only tells me humans are cognitively plastic and variable. But I already knew this. It's why we have elections instead of immediately agreeing on who should be in charge.

 

[fagin]

You're welcome.




geology isn't "SCIENCE"; Crocheting is more Scientific.


regards

Perhaps you should stick to the latter.

 

[Daniel]

I have already stated that my position is based on Occam's Razor: I see no reason to introduce extra supernatural entities as long as the laws of physics as we presently know them seem adequate.

Sir by proxy of your belief system, you MUST 'BELIEVE'...

Coming from someone who's Foundation Corner-Stone, Pillars of his "Belief" System are....

1. Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints.

2. The Universe existing prior to it's existence; then, creating itself from nothing.

3. "Nature" wickers together Hyper Nano-Tech Machines and Robots.

Errr...Occam's Razor is the least of your concerns.

Do not mistake my position: I do not claim that it absolutely certain that your God is behind everything, it is just extremely unlikely.

I'm not. Your position is stated succinctly above.

There is much that we do not know, but based on experience, the god-of-the-gaps is not a likely explanation.

1. Argument from Ignorance.

2. More like "evolution of the Gaps"...

a. How Did Stupid Atoms Write There Own Software.....?

b. How did you get Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins when they NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively??
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.

It's not because "actual' Scientists (and 3rd graders everywhere) DON'T KNOW the answers to the questions, it's because Everybody KNOWS The Answers.

Furthermore, to answer these questions by some "Naturalistic" process, you will Directly VIOLATE:

1. The Laws of Thermodynamics
2. Laws of Chemistry/Biochemistry
3. Laws of Information
4. Tenets of Functional Sequence/Specific Complexity and Irreducible Complexity
5. Laws of Logic
5. Law of Cause and Effect

So Materialist/Realists can't explain these, so they merely say...."evolution did it"!!

Guess what that is???........ "evolution of the GAPS"!!

In fact, it's "Scientific Law VIOLATING.... "evolution of the GAPS"!

And The Capper... Nobody, and I mean NOBODY.... can even state what the Scientific Theory of evolution is!!

Knowing your unethical use of sources, I assume that Orgel meant the exact opposite, and I notice his phrase "direct synthesis", so he probably meant to say that synthesis is possible indirectly.

And then you're reduced to this Nonsensical Blather.

We have pointed out many times that this silly analogy is just an argument from incredulity.

Then top it off with vicarious Past Delusions of Grandeur

Have you never heard the phrase that 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence'?

Have you ever heard: Lack of evidence is not proof that the contrary is true. However, if evidence can reasonably be expected to be found, then lack of evidence is evidence to the contrary.

So if you claim: Slopelgertz exist... then you have to SHOW Slogelgertz EXISTING!! OR...

Do you think it is scientific or logical for you to imagine things and then demand people who do not believe in your imaginings to demonstrate how your imaginings are false, BEFORE you give evidence for your imaginings?

This is not a court of law.

Good thing because your case would be laughed @ and thrown out on it's NECK!!!

This is a Court of Public Opinion, however.

So you do not expect a formal proof of creationism, but you were quick to demand it of abiogenesis.

I already have it; it's called The 1st and 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

Here's a taste...

"How big was the original phase-space volume W that the Creator had to aim for in order to provide a universe compatible with the second law of thermodynamics and with what we now observe? ....
This now tells us how precise the Creator’s aim must have been: namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10¹²³."
Prof. Roger Penrose: The Emperor’s New Mind; p 343, 1989

Got: Quantum Mechanics, Laws of Information, Law of Biogenesis, Laws of Chemistry/Biochemistry, Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity, Irreducible Complexity, Law of Cause and Effect....just hanging out in the Bull Pen!

Even though it's well beyond painfully redundant (SEE Above), Ya want me to Bring Out The Closer ?? The question is, "Do you feel lucky, well do ya...." (SEE Clint Eastwood for the rest )


regards

 

[Daniel]

Another thing in Danielscience is that it is forbidden to draw conclusions about chemical reactions happening in the past by doing experiments in the present.

Please show these Chemical Reactions in the Past ....?

The only experiments he will accept are those that he can physically see happening outside of a lab.

I never said that (Ergo...Straw Man Fallacy). You can have them in every single lab on the planet...but the first instance of "Un-Natural" Intelligent Agent Interference, your position Implodes and Ispo Facto Solidifies mine: Remember My Position is Intelligent Agency!! See the connection?

For the rest of the world, who do NOT adhere to Danielscience...

The Rest of the World, eh ?? SUPPORT...???

Nucleotides, lipids AND aminoacids have been experimentally proven to form via simple chemical reactions requiring no intelligent guidance.

1. Where'd you get Nucleotides (for the 1867th Time!!)....?

2. Where'd you get lipids....? You also need a little more than just Lipids..."Complex Lipids" make up Cellular Membranes. (Along with TRANS-MEMBRANE PROTEINS, without which....VAPOR LOCK!!) Call Jack Szostak ... if you hear a "click" just keep callin. Hope you have Free Long Distance

Also...You are aware that the Energy Density of 'Fats/Lipids' is more than twice that of Sugars and Proteins per gram, right?
Thermodynamically, are "Fats" more or less likely to spontaneously form?

3. Forming Amino Acids wasn't the entire Argument. It's forming the 20 Essential Alpha's; THEN...Forming "Functional" Proteins.

And similarly, all three have been shown to quite easily polymerize and interact with each other in a large series of experiments, again requiring no guidance.

Sure. And Invisible 3 Toed Gnomes are responsible for creating dark matter by throwing pixie dust in a black hole behind the crab nebula.

But what Daniel, and the while ID/creationist field with him, do is claim that because the setup for these experiments requires a lab to simulate pre-biotic earth and selection methods to actually find the results of experiments in order to not have to wait 100 million years on the results, intelligence is required.

Ahhh yes, the HERO "Savior" of the Plot....."LONG AGES" Tell us, is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics directly or inversely proportional to 'Time'??

And Please Scientifically Validate "100 Million Years" so as to invalidate this current Begging The Question Fallacy...?
That is, Post the Formal Scientific Hypothesis then Experiment that validates your claim...?
Highlight the "Independent Variable" in the TEST for us, mmm K ?

For those not familiar with how such experiments work it might even sound compelling.
An analogy would be claiming that, because I carried a bucket of water to the top of a hill, and set up a camera to observe and analyse what happens when I let it flow down, intelligence is needed to guide water from the top to the bottom, so water can NEVER do that without intelligence.

Oy Vey sir.

 

[tsig]

You're welcome.




geology isn't "SCIENCE"; Crocheting is more Scientific.


regards

Scientists stitch together rocks?

 

[Daylightstar]

No, I take it on HIS WORD.
...

What other poster are you talking about?

 

[tsig]

Please show these Chemical Reactions in the Past ....?





I never said that (Ergo...Straw Man Fallacy). You can have them in every single lab on the planet...but the first instance of "Un-Natural" Intelligent Agent Interference, your position Implodes and Ispo Facto Solidifies mine: Remember My Position is Intelligent Agency!! See the connection?





The Rest of the World, eh ?? SUPPORT...???





1. Where'd you get Nucleotides (for the 1867th Time!!)....?

2. Where'd you get lipids....? You also need a little more than just Lipids..."Complex Lipids" make up Cellular Membranes. (Along with TRANS-MEMBRANE PROTEINS, without which....VAPOR LOCK!!) Call Jack Szostak ... if you hear a "click" just keep callin. Hope you have Free Long Distance

Also...You are aware that the Energy Density of 'Fats/Lipids' is more than twice that of Sugars and Proteins per gram, right?
Thermodynamically, are "Fats" more or less likely to spontaneously form?

3. Forming Amino Acids wasn't the entire Argument. It's forming the 20 Essential Alpha's; THEN...Forming "Functional" Proteins.





Sure. And Invisible 3 Toed Gnomes are responsible for creating dark matter by throwing pixie dust in a black hole behind the crab nebula.





Ahhh yes, the HERO "Savior" of the Plot....."LONG AGES" Tell us, is the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics directly or inversely proportional to 'Time'??

And Please Scientifically Validate "100 Million Years" so as to invalidate this current Begging The Question Fallacy...?
That is, Post the Formal Scientific Hypothesis then Experiment that validates your claim...?
Highlight the "Independent Variable" in the TEST for us, mmm K ?





Oy Vey sir.

Ever notice how the first part of ignorance is ignor?

Did you know that gefilte fish is nether fish nor gefilte?
l

 

[Jodie]

If our existence is a simulation then DNA would be code designed by some intelligent something, however, it doesn't necessarily mean it was done by GOD. It could be us in the future, or some other alien life form, which has been previously stated.

Have you ever played those computer games like Spore and Evolution? It's based on the idea that DNA contains code but those codes are plastic, just as in real life, allowing for evolution to take place. The game never runs exactly the same twice so I would say it's altogether possible that we are a happy accident. If there is a creator of sorts, it might not be too picky about what ends up having enough intelligence to conceive of a creator.

 

[MikeG]

Please show these Chemical Reactions in the Past.......

Why? What is it that has changed that means that chemistry behaves differently now to the way it did in the past?

 

[MikeG]

........ It's forming the 20 Essential Alpha's; THEN...Forming "Functional" Proteins..........

You haven't even begun to demonstrate that your "20 essential ....sorry Essential.........Alphas" are essential. Give it a go. Danielscience can do anything you want it to do, but this time try and make a case that would pass muster in a school biology class.

 

[Daniel]

Why? What is it that has changed that means that chemistry behaves differently now to the way it did in the past?

Nothing. My position is that it hasn't changed @ all. Pose the question to 'Lukraak_Sisser' and have him reconcile his Straw Man.


regards

 

[Daniel]

You haven't even begun to demonstrate that your "20 essential ....sorry Essential.........Alphas" are essential. Give it a go. Danielscience can do anything you want it to do, but this time try and make a case that would pass muster in a school biology class.

oh brother

 

[jimbob]

geology isn't "SCIENCE"; Crocheting is more Scientific.

It doesn't perform (many) experiments, being mostly observation and application of reason and known science to explain the observations* but there are plenty of observations that show how the story unfolded. We can now measure the East and West of the Atlantic moving apart at about the speed that fingernails grow. We can see similar rocks either side of the Atlantic in Africa and South America. We can see the thin layer of iridium-rich rock in the K-g boundary, and find the remains of the crater with geophysical imaging in the Gulf of Mexico. We can see evidence of other meteor impacts in the rocks and shocked quartz, and can see that the craters have been almost totally eroded. This must have taken time.

We can see igneous rocks in Britain, like the columnar basalts on the West coast of Scotland and realise that they have not been due to active vulcanism for a *long* time. We can see other igneous rocks with sedimentary rocks on top and conclude that the sedimentary rocks are younger.

We can look at the distribution of families of animals and see that they correspond to ancient continents - Marsupials in South America and Australia, for example, and fossils in Antarctica.

We can drill through ice cores in Antarctica and Greenland, and count the rings due to summers and winters.

We can see the fossilised sea creatures in sedimentary rocks (the cliffs at Robin Hood's Bay and at Lyme Regis in the North East and South West coasts of England respectively are good for this) and it is easy to work out that they must have been covered by sea at some time. When you look at the thicknesses of rocks, and how they have been deposited, you can see whether they have been deposited in calm, still water or a raging torrent. If you can see the tracks of an organism, it was calm water.

None of this fits with a global flood as described in the bible - which also only works as an explanation if the teller believed the Earth was flat, so the water could fall off. It makes no sense with the Earth being a planet.


I could talk about isotope dating, but that is unnecessary to establish the age of the Earth and life as many millions of years old at least.













*

(although there are some experiments - one physical experiment suggested that the collision of the Indian and Eurasian plates was a possible explanation for the formation of the Lake Baikal rift zone)

 

[Daniel]

If our existence is a simulation

IMHO (mainly from Quantum Mechanics) this is exactly the case.

If our existence is a simulation then DNA would be code designed by some intelligent something, however, it doesn't necessarily mean it was done by GOD.

Then who?

It could be us in the future

Say What?

...or some other alien life form, which has been previously stated.

This is merely a Punt. Same Questions (who created them?, et al), different Genesis Location.
And show an Alien....?

Have you ever played those computer games like Spore and Evolution?

Nope.

It's based on the idea that DNA contains code but those codes are plastic, just as in real life...

What do you mean by 'Plastic'?

allowing for evolution to take place.

What do you mean by "evolution"? Can you post the Scientific Theory of evolution....?


regards

 

[jimbob]

Sorry for the delay in answering, but I needed to roast a dinosaur.

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Sorry for the delay in answering, but I needed to roast a dinosaur.

You should hire some insult comedians.