Creationist argument about DNA and information

Your Argument is Tantamount to (You're Sally)...

Harry: "Look @ those amazing Pyramids??"

Sally: "How were they built??"

Harry: "I have No Idea".

Sally: "Therefore, the Wind/Waves/and Erosion built them!!"
Actually this is how a rational interchange from a skeptic would go:
Harry: "Look @ those amazing Pyramids??"

Sally: "How were they built??"

Harry: "I have No Idea".

Sally: "Therefore I Will have to ask Someone else. Hello Archeologist, how were the Pyramids Built?"

Archeologist: "...Explains the evidence for the possible techniques for Building the Pyramids, the Experiments on Building the Pyramid, the Building of Other large Structures by Egyptians, the Transport of building Stones, etc...."

Sally: "Thank You - I now am Educated About Pyramid Building Possibilities"

But then we might get Daniel: "Wrong Sally. Only Aliens from the Planet Zog can build Pyramids and thus they Built these Pyramids" :p.
 
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"Wrong, Sally. We cannot know anything about the past. That's not real science."
(All the while saying nothing about his own beliefs about the matter, which are rendered absurd by observation in ways requiring little erudition)
 
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Your Argument is Tantamount to (You're Sally)...

Harry: "Look @ those amazing Pyramids??"

Sally: "How were they built??"

Harry: "I have No Idea".

Sally: "Therefore, the Wind/Waves/and Erosion built them!!"

Why choose the Pyramids as the example? Why aren't Harry and Sally looking at the sand and rocks around the Pyramids and asking who built them?
 
What INFORMATION isn't...

Your "Interpretation" of the physical effects or consequences of the existence of inanimate objects is not "Information" sir. When I put my hand under running water, the water's not communicating to me that it's "WET" or that it's "cold' or 'hot'. When a tree branch falls in the woods, the sound waves aren't telling me "I've fallen, and I can't get up.



No. Information is data or knowledge about "something."

definition
 
Say what?? And where'd you get quarks...?




Not "You", you're an Intelligent Agent. Remember My Argument...Intelligent Design?
Remember Your Argument...(Your god)--- "Nature"/Natural Law , by chance?

Since Nucleotides are the building blocks of Nucleic Acids (DNA/RNA); I'm asking (and been asking you personally/explicitly for probably better than 10 posts) to show Nucleosides wickering themselves together "Naturally" spontaneously, THEN show Nucleotides wickering themselves together "Naturally" spontaneously.

** And sir, this has Nothing WHATSOEVER to do with Information, we are just dealing with "Physical Molecules" here. "INFORMATION" is not Physical, Remember...

Norbert Wiener Professor Mathematics MIT...

“Information is information, neither matter nor energy.”
Wiener, N., Cybernetics, or Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine, Hermann et Cie, The Technology Press, Paris, 1948.






Huh?? What simple step is impossible?? If creationism is impossible, then... how did you get here, pray tell...?

Let's see these "Experiments"....?



:boggled:

Are you reading a different thread... then posting here??


regards

See, there you go again, expanding the an experiment into impossibility in order to have to avoid the actual result.

Explain to me first how creating a large amount of randomly generated strings of RNA and then selecting for a function is design, let alone intelligent.
Because thus far you have never addressed that.
Or do you consider an avalanche intelligent falling? Because it uses the same randomness followed by selection.

As for the experiments, I've posted a large amount of actually recent literature and this without cherry picking. That you are unwilling to actually read that and then comment on the actual experiments is not my problem.
 
OK, here's another way of stating it: The proposition that nature-as-it-is requires intelligence to create it does not follow from the premise that we use intelligence to describe it. Using the term "laws of physics" to mean both the way nature behaves, and our description of how nature behaves is an equivocation - they are not the same thing. Simple as that.


First of all…I did not claim that nature requires intelligence to create it, I said there is very convincing evidence that implicates the existence of intelligence in / as reality. Nature isn’t created by intelligence…it is intelligence. There is evidence to support the conclusion that nature / reality IS information. There is evidence to support the conclusion that the ‘laws of physics’ exist in /as nature / reality. There is indisputable evidence that supports the conclusion that ONLY intelligence can generate ‘laws of physics.’

It may well be an equivocation to claim that the ‘laws of physics’ are both how we describe nature AND nature itself…but, as I said…it is generally agreed that the ‘laws of physics’ are, in fact…discovered. And if reality is, in fact, some manner of ‘information’, then it is ‘information’ within which these laws of physics occur and out of which they are resolved by the consciousness / intelligence we call human beings.

The laws of physics are, themselves, referred to as ‘information’ (a rather vaguely defined term but to the degree that we ‘know’ what it means, no one is going to dispute this conclusion […meaning…the statement “the laws of physics are not information” would be regarded as normatively incoherent]). So…the information of the laws of physics are derived from the information of reality.

Nobody, of course, has ever actually explicitly identified a ‘law of physics’ anywhere in reality. But there are few who doubt that they somehow occur there if for no other reason than everything seems to implicate this very conclusion. We derive them from the reality of neural / cognitive activity (which itself can be regarded as a direct function of them). Everything follows them. Everything can be described by them. Everything can be predicted by them. There are skeptics who are posting on this very thread who go further and insist that they literally exist in reality.

If they exist in / as reality…or, at the very least (as ALL the evidence seems to suggest)…they seem to exist in /as reality…then that, by definition, implicates intelligence. Every paradigm of logic and reason that we possess generates the conclusion that something with the capacity to generate meaning of that degree of complexity cannot be anything but intelligent.

…simple as that.

All-but-indisputable? Not INDISPUTABLE this time? Well I dispute it. The evidence seems to support the idea that intelligence is an emergent property of nature, not its cause.


If you agree that the laws of physics are discovered (the consensus amongst skeptics), if you agree that everything (as we know it) follows, is described by, and can be predicted by…the laws of physics…(also the consensus amongst skeptics) then it is impossible to come to any other conclusion but that the evidence suggests that the laws of physics are instantiated in nature. And given that it is turning out that ‘nature’ is, in fact some manner of information…and the laws of physics themselves are that very thing (to the degree they can be described as having any variety of inherent phenomenology)…this all seems entirely consistent.

….nature is the laws of physics.

If this is accurate…then it is impossible to come to any other conclusion but that nature is intelligent.

What is interesting…is that this conclusion is not entirely unintelligible. There is evidence throughout history of human beings recognizing the ‘intelligence’ in everything around them. IOW…our own intelligence seems to possess within it the emergent capacity to recognize the intelligence of the world we occupy.

This conclusion cannot, of course, be empirically confirmed. But then again, there isn’t a single statement within the epistemology of science that can be empirically confirmed either.

…it’s all faith. We accept that our intelligence provides us with these insights and abilities. Nobody has yet come within light years of explaining how any of it happens.
 
Why choose the Pyramids as the example?


No particular reason, I could have chosen any number of examples that display Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity.



Why aren't Harry and Sally looking at the sand and rocks around the Pyramids and asking who built them?


Well they already know that, since the Laws of Quantum Mechanics and the 1st/2nd Law of Thermodynamics state WHAT Didn't.


regards
 
No. Information is data or knowledge about "something."


Factually Incorrect.

FULL Definition of Information (Merr-Webs):

1. Information: the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/information


And Again, if 'Data' is Information then simply show the Information in this 'DATA'...

eyfmv sbekfl ehaftjf imyayeod fasfstllgjda kolvn evt4s3refd 42ofdwr pgjdfner yerithdnvkdkg mdskd. ???

If you can't show the "Information", your argument is Kaput. Savvy?


regards
 
Brilliant!


So this...

20-awesome-and-intricate-sandcastles-you-have-to-see-14.jpg



Shows the Same 'Randomness' (followed by 'Selection' :rolleyes:) as this...

images


??


Is that Brilliant?

regards
 
"Wrong, Sally. We cannot know anything about the past.


Straw Man Fallacy: I never said we can't know anything about the past; I said, IT'S NOT SCIENCE!!

1. Post the Scientific Method....?

2. Go ahead and post the characteristics of an 'Actual' Scientific Hypothesis and I'll show WHY...for the 278th time. :rolleyes:


regards
 
Factually Incorrect.

FULL Definition of Information (Merr-Webs):

1. Information: the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/information


And Again, if 'Data' is Information then simply show the Information in this 'DATA'...

eyfmv sbekfl ehaftjf imyayeod fasfstllgjda kolvn evt4s3refd 42ofdwr pgjdfner yerithdnvkdkg mdskd. ???

If you can't show the "Information", your argument is Kaput. Savvy?


regards

Hopefully for the last time:

Information is much more than an intentional message. The gibberish you write in your example might not mean anything as a message, but it carries information. If nothing else it tells me that you included it in your post. It also helps in understanding the overall message of your post.

What do you make of unintentional information? If a painting has cracks and has faded, an expert will take that information and infer an approximate date for the painting. No message intended, no message received, yet information was extracted from the random cracking of paint over time.

Information does not have to be an intentional message. Seriously, these are facts and they have been clearly explained to you several times. ...snip...
Edited by jsfisher: 
Edited for compliance with rules 0 and 12 of the Membership Agreement.
 
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Factually Incorrect.

FULL Definition of Information (Merr-Webs):

1. Information: the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/information


And Again, if 'Data' is Information then simply show the Information in this 'DATA'...

eyfmv sbekfl ehaftjf imyayeod fasfstllgjda kolvn evt4s3refd 42ofdwr pgjdfner yerithdnvkdkg mdskd. ???

If you can't show the "Information", your argument is Kaput. Savvy?


regards

You are focussing on a single part of the definition, rather than the totality of the definition. And you are also requiring that information must be understood in order to truly be information.

Rather than use the example of apparently random alpha-numeric characters - which may contain information, or may simply be keyboard mashings, I'll use your Paul Revere analogy.

You contended that the lights in the steeple do not represent information in and of themselves, as they were only relevant because of the prearranged meaning given them. The lights conveyed information to Mr. Revere and his less well known yet more effective counterparts, but also conveyed information to ANY observer, regardless of their knowledge of the code. A British officer seeing the lights could very much determine that "something" was afoot, as lights were not displayed in the steeple normally. And subsequent investigation could then determine the exact meaning.
 
Factually Incorrect.

FULL Definition of Information (Merr-Webs):

1. Information: the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/information
You are dishonest as usual: you cherry-picked the part of Merriam-Webster's definition of "information" that suited you, and left out the rest:
1 : the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence
2
a (1) : knowledge obtained from investigation, study, or instruction (2) : intelligence, news (3) : facts, data
b : the attribute inherent in and communicated by one of two or more alternative sequences or arrangements of something (as nucleotides in DNA or binary digits in a computer program) that produce specific effects
c (1) : a signal or character (as in a communication system or computer) representing data (2) : something (as a message, experimental data, or a picture) which justifies change in a construct (as a plan or theory) that represents physical or mental experience or another construct
d : a quantitative measure of the content of information; specifically : a numerical quantity that measures the uncertainty in the outcome of an experiment to be performed​

3 : the act of informing against a person

4 : a formal accusation of a crime made by a prosecuting officer as distinguished from an indictment presented by a grand jury
Please read definition 2 carefully.

And Again, if 'Data' is Information then simply show the Information in this 'DATA'...

eyfmv sbekfl ehaftjf imyayeod fasfstllgjda kolvn evt4s3refd 42ofdwr pgjdfner yerithdnvkdkg mdskd. ???

If you can't show the "Information", your argument is Kaput. Savvy?
Utter nonsense, of course.

Your God is not proven to exist simply by using a definition of science that excludes most sciences, nor by using a definition of information or data that presupposes an intelligence. If your definitions happened to be right (which they are not, see above), we would have to use other terms, and your argument would still be as invalid as when you started.
 
Information is much more than an intentional message.


Why, cause you said so?


The gibberish you write...


Ad Hominem (Fallacy), Color Commentary.


...in your example might not mean anything as a message, but it carries information.


Then why haven't you SUPPORTED your claim by simply posting the Information contained within it, instead of the Incessant "Na'ahhh" defense in lieu of it?



If nothing else it tells me that you included it in your post.


:confused:

What do you make of unintentional information?


I treat it the same as Married Bachelors, it doesn't exist.



If a painting has cracks and has faded, an expert will take that information and infer an approximate date for the painting. No message intended, no message received, yet information was extracted from the random cracking of paint over time.


That's not Information. The painting is not communicating anything to the 'expert'.


Information does not have to be an intentional message. Seriously, these are facts and they have been clearly explained to you several times.


Well 'flat earth' has also been clearly explained several times, doesn't make it right or offer any VERACITY, whatsoever.


regards
 
Why, cause you said so?





Ad Hominem (Fallacy), Color Commentary.





Then why haven't you SUPPORTED your claim by simply posting the Information contained within it, instead of the Incessant "Na'ahhh" defense in lieu of it?






:confused:




I treat it the same as Married Bachelors, it doesn't exist.






That's not Information. The painting is not communicating anything to the 'expert'.





Well 'flat earth' has also been clearly explained several times, doesn't make it right or offer any VERACITY, whatsoever.


regards
You're not even trying anymore. No ad hom. "Gibberish" obviously refers to the nonsensical string of characters you put together to make a point. The fact that I can understand the point you were making clearly indicates there is information in the gibberish. There are billions of examples of unintentional information.

In your simple understanding, a book contains information because the author wrote a message. But there is much more information than what is written. The fact that it is written in, say, English, is information as such. The size of the book, the type of paper used, the price tag, etc are all information which can be used to infer facts. Using a narrow definition is childish and useless.


In poker, a bet, a fold, hesitation, a betting pattern, the size of a bet, a player's position (button, cutoff), etc., all constitute information, which allows me to make inferences and make the correct play. If you think information is solely and always an intentional message, there isn't much anyone can do to stop you, but you are not even not even wrong.
 
You are dishonest as usual: you cherry-picked the part of Merriam-Webster's definition of "information" that suited you, and left out the rest:

Please read definition 2 carefully.


Utter nonsense, of course.

Your God is not proven to exist simply by using a definition of science that excludes most sciences, nor by using a definition of information or data that presupposes an intelligence. If your definitions happened to be right (which they are not, see above), we would have to use other terms, and your argument would still be as invalid as when you started.
Dear lord- Daniel's quote-mining the friggin' dictionary? Just when you think a creationist's argument (which is all he has) can't get any siller :rolleyes:
 
You are focussing on a single part of the definition, rather than the totality of the definition.


And you're dismissing the Quintessential Aspect of the Definition (Communication), and focusing on quibbling.


And you are also requiring that information must be understood in order to truly be information.


Yes: INFORMation...it INFORMS. :rolleyes:


Rather than use the example of apparently random alpha-numeric characters - which may contain information, or may simply be keyboard mashings...


Woe woe woe, there. So you don't know/can't discern Information when you see it?
Then, pray tell, why are you even discussing the attributes of it? :boggled:


I'll use your Paul Revere analogy.

You contended that the lights in the steeple do not represent information in and of themselves...


Incorrect. They 'Represent' Information (Semiotics); however, they are merely 'The Medium'. Photons do not have the message EMBEDDED 'Physically' in them.


...they were only relevant because of the prearranged meaning given them.


Correct.


The lights conveyed information to Mr. Revere


Paul 'assigned' the message to the lights, the Information was 'conveyed' to The Patriots as a result of a Pre-Arranged AGREEMENT between A and B (Paul and The Patriots).



but also conveyed information to ANY observer, regardless of their knowledge of the code.


:confused: Really? For instance....?


A British officer seeing the lights could very much determine that "something" was afoot, as lights were not displayed in the steeple normally.


So.... a Guess "SOMETHING", eh?

The World's most powerful computers stacked on top of each other working for 50 Billion Years with computations each second couldn't have 'cracked' this CODE, without CONTEXT!!!!

1 light = 5 Beers
2 lights = 3 Giraffes

1 light = Hangnail
2 lights = Chicken Tenders

...ad infinitum


And subsequent investigation could then determine the exact meaning.


:rolleyes:


regards
 
Dear lord......Just when you think a creationist's argument (which is all he has) can't get any siller :rolleyes:

It just did..........again. Daniel's revisionist definitions just got even more ridiculous. A transparent attempt at defining the issue away.

6yHpoJv.jpg
 
You are dishonest as usual:


Sure. I was on the Grassy Knoll also.

you cherry-picked the part of Merriam-Webster's definition of "information" that suited you, and left out the rest:


And you did the same (Pot meet Kettle)...

Please read definition 2 carefully.


Please read definition " 1 " more carefully.


Utter nonsense, of course.


Color Commentary Op-Ed.


Your God is not proven to exist simply by using a definition of science that excludes most sciences...


Ohh, HE Exists alright.

Well if the Definition of Science SEE: "The Scientific Method", excludes 'most sciences'; THEN Logically.... the 'most sciences' weren't 'Sciences' to begin with. :cool:


...nor by using a definition of information or data that presupposes an intelligence.


We all have Presuppositions, the key is....Do They Make SENSE! ;)


If your definitions happened to be right (which they are not, see above)...


They are.


...we would have to use other terms, and your argument would still be as invalid as when you started.


Really?? Please Invalidate...

CODE contains information. (such as a Book, Morse Code, Instructions, they all contain information)
Information has authors. (which is ALWAYS the case)
DNA is a CODE.
Therefore DNA has an Author.

Go ahead....?


regards
 

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