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Creationism in school.

Alt+F4 said:
These days you could become a millionaire and still believe that dinosaurs and humans lived together at the same time. In fact, that belief would only label you "quirky" in intelligent circles and par with the course in the rest of America. If you can get the job done no one cares what you think about dinosaurs.
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Hrm. Forgive me ahead of time, for I am definitely not the best person, or even adequate, for putting my exact thoughts in type. I have trouble at times transitioning ideas from one medium to the other. So bear with me here.

Let's say I started my own little group, and our core concept was something demonstrably false, but on the face of it, harmless. This group would not be a good analogue for creationists. The problem with creationism isn't their beliefs. I support and defend their intent on believing whatever they want.

The actual problem is in how they're trying to spread those beliefs. The "Discovery Institute". The infamous wedge document. The slandering of those doing actual science. The intentional disinformation and obfuscation as to what science is and what it is not. The politicians in power who use creationism as one of their tools as a way of strenghtening their power base to the detriment of those who are not. The repeated attempts to force the government and the public education system to treat creationism as equal to science, despite it having nothing to do with science.

It is not creationism, the core concept itself, that I find troublesome or dangerous. It is in how its proponents are trying to wield it like a weapon, and care whether or not it is detrimental.

I'm probably explaining this poorly. If need be I'll mull it over and rephrase everything if needs be.
 
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Mister Earl said:
Hrm. Forgive me ahead of time, for I am definitely not the best person, or even adequate, for putting my exact thoughts in type. I have trouble at times transitioning ideas from one medium to the other. So bear with me here.

Let's say I started my own little group, and our core concept was something demonstrably false, but on the face of it, harmless. This group would not be a good analogue for creationists. The problem with creationism isn't their beliefs. I support and defend their intent on believing whatever they want.

The actual problem is in how they're trying to spread those beliefs. The "Discovery Institute". The infamous wedge document. The slandering of those doing actual science. The intentional disinformation and obfuscation as to what science is and what it is not. The politicians in power who use creationism as one of their tools as a way of strenghtening their power base to the detriment of those who are not. The repeated attempts to force the government and the public education system to treat creationism as equal to science, despite it having nothing to do with science.

It is not creationism, the core concept itself, that I find troublesome or dangerous. It is in how its proponents are trying to wield it like a weapon, and care whether or not it is detrimental.

I'm probably explaining this poorly. If need be I'll mull it over and rephrase everything if needs be.
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Ken Ham is also calling for division among U.S. society between Christians and secularists/atheists. By selling the idea that Christianity is under attack he probably hopes to draw more towards evangelical Protestantism. There is also a lot of violence in his language. The controversy under discussion he describes as a "vicious attack". In the following article from last month he talks up the divide and suggests Christians need to be prepared for a physical battle.

The increasing anti-Christian attacks in America should be a warning to the church that the chasm is widening between what is Christian and what is not in this nation.

People can no longer straddle both sides of the chasm. It’s getting very wide. They will have to finally decide which side they are on! And if those who are on God’s side stand their ground on His Word without compromise, then they may face persecution in various forms.

But who will be strong enough to stand with the Lord? Who will be prepared to do what Martin Luther did when he is reported to have said, “Here I stand [on Scripture]. I can do no other. God help me.” Luther knew that such a stand could result in imprisonment and even death. If we were in such a position today, would we be willing to risk our freedom or even our life for the sake of God’s Word?​
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2013/04/29/chasm-is-widening-are-you-on-gods-side
 
psionl0 said:
That evolution exists is a fact. That evolution explains everything is a theory which is taught with religious zeal.
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No, that the observed variety of life forms present today had a common ancestor is a fact. It is taught with no more zeal than any other foundational ideal in science. To call it religious zeal is unwarranted.
 
psionl0 said:
That evolution exists is a fact. That evolution explains everything is a theory which is taught with religious zeal.
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Is evolution really taught as explaining "everything" and is it really taught with "religious zeal"?

I would say no to both, but perhaps you could provide some evidence for your twin claims.

The main claim is that evolution by natural selection explains the origin of species of animal and plant life and the theory gains in evidence all the time, and in some ways far beyond that which Darwin himself had anticipated. Competing theories have no such evidential support and Creationism has less support than almost any other theory that has been seriously considered.
 
I'm not really interested in whether evolution or creationism explains life as we know it today. Both theories are about as satisfying as sucking on an empty beer bottle.

We simply don't have enough reliable information to form a judgement on the origins of life, the universe and everything.
 
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psionl0 said:
I'm not really interested in whether evolution or creationism explains life as we know it today. Both theories are about as satisfying as sucking on an empty beer bottle.

We simply don't have enough reliable information to form a judgement on the origins of life, the universe and everything.
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Holy conflation, Batman!

Evolution is mute on the origin of life

Evolution is mute on the origin of the universe

Creationism is not a theory
 
psionl0 said:
I'm not really interested in whether evolution or creationism explains life as we know it today. Both theories are about as satisfying as sucking on an empty beer bottle.

We simply don't have enough reliable information to form a judgement on the origins of life, the universe and everything.
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When discussing science you should be careful to avoid the well known ways in which different meanings of the word "theory" can be conflated. Creationist narratives about observed life, the history of life, and its origins are ill defined and make many falsifiable predictions that they fail. There is no comparison with scientific narratives, which are detailed and have accounted for successive new observations, like the genetic record and fossil finds, that could have falsified them.

You will of course be satisfied or dissatisfied by whatever of the narratives out there on these topics, but what we are to teach in the classrooms must be the scientific ones. That dinosaurs and man lived side by side is a lie. That the earth is not billions of years old is a lie. What science tells us on these are facts as good as any other notions we apply the term to.
 
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psionl0 said:
Oops! I keep forgetting that the theory on the origin of life is called "abiogenesis" which is a completely different thing to evolution.

Evolution is a fascinating thing to study but that's it.
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Not universal to everyone and definitely wrong if you're participating in biological studies.

But if you're talking in reference to yourself then you have my pity.
 
The problem with teaching creationism is very simple.

Creationism teachers must go down one of two paths: misfeasance or malfeasance of the scientific community. Specifically, either millions of researchers, scientist. And professors are so incompetent that their calculations are off by six orders of magnitude or there is a worldwide conspiracy (of millions of people) to hide the truth about the Bible having the correct age of the earth.

Creationism teaches that science is so incompetent or so corrupt that all scientific conclusions may be dismissed with the wave of a hand. "If they are lying about the age of the earth, then there is no reason to believe they are not lying about global climate change."

ETA Such an attitude among voters is frightening. Such an attitude in presidential candidates is horrifying.
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I am typing on a phone so I won't go off on a rant about how big six orders of magnitude is.
 
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What's the harm with creationism?

Sen. Elbert Guillory, D-Opelousas, said he had reservations with repealing the act after a spiritual healer correctly diagnosed a specific medical ailment he had. He said he thought repealing the act could "lock the door on being able to view ideas from many places, concepts from many cultures."
“Yet if I closed my mind when I saw this man—in the dust, throwing some bones on the ground, semi-clothed—if I had closed him off and just said, ‘That's not science. I'm not going to see this doctor,’ I would have shut off a very good experience for myself,” Guillory said.
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There we go. A bloody US Senator. One who struck down an attempt to repeal the unconstitutional law that allows Louisianna public schools to teach Creationism as science.

The Bad Astronomer's take on it. He includes sources.
 
Ladewig said:
The problem with teaching creationism is very simple.

Creationism teachers must go down one of two paths: misfeasance or malfeasance of the scientific community. Specifically, either millions of researchers, scientist. And professors are so incompetent that their calculations are off by six orders of magnitude or there is a worldwide conspiracy (of millions of people) to hide the truth about the Bible having the correct age of the earth.

Creationism teaches that science is so incompetent or so corrupt that all scientific conclusions may be dismissed with the wave of a hand. "If they are lying about the age of the earth, then there is no reason to believe they are not lying about global climate change."

ETA Such an attitude among voters is frightening. Such an attitude in presidential candidates is horrifying.
......
I am typing on a phone so I won't go off on a rant about how big six orders of magnitude is.
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:thumbsup:
 
Mister Earl said:
What's the harm with creationism?



There we go. A bloody US Senator. One who struck down an attempt to repeal the unconstitutional law that allows Louisianna public schools to teach Creationism as science.

The Bad Astronomer's take on it. He includes sources.
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He's actually a Louisiana state senator, but the point stands. Louisiana's voucher program also allows state funds to go to religious schools that teach creationism
 
Lucian said:
He's actually a Louisiana state senator, but the point stands. Louisiana's voucher program also allows state funds to go to religious schools that teach creationism
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Whoops! Well. If nothing else, I've again verified my humanity through simple error. :D

I stand happily corrected, and thank you!

#EDIT: Meh. Voucher programs. I've got the impression that the only reason voucher programs exist is to obfuscate where funds actually go and to whom. Needless complexity enables malfeasance.
 
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Lowpro said:
Not universal to everyone and definitely wrong if you're participating in biological studies.

But if you're talking in reference to yourself then you have my pity.
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I'm not sure what you are getting at. Like most scientific theories, evolution explains some things but not others. Abiogenesis has not been demonstrated to be true. Maybe in the future these theories will get better.
 
RecoveringYuppy said:
Your sentence is an order of magnitude longer than the word "million".
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Yes. It is hard to choose best way to express large numbers.

In either case, if you asked someone how far is the earth from the sun and got an answer of 93 miles then .. Well... I'll stop there.
 
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