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creation ex nihilo

punshhh said:
Science gives you the tools to find out what exactly?
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Mostly, it gives us tools to test what we think we know and to find out whether it's right or wrong. Over time, a complex tapestry of knowledge develops.

If you don't trust the conclusions that have been reached by scientific consensus, then science gives you the tools to find out for yourself. It's an awful lot of trouble to go through, considering it's already been done for you, but if you've got the time, go for it.
 
What is the essential difference of a deity creating something from something or something from nothing? Does it really matter? What about an uncreated deity or a created one? How do they know such a deity didn't commit suicide yesterday noon GMT? Why not let them alone?

I regard all those attempts to rationalize religious beliefs as an invasion of privacy, and those attempts to invade science with religious like beliefs not only as the lowest taste, lacking of sense and education, and control freakishness but also as a signal of the frailest faith, whichever it could be. A real believer lives his or her faith aplenty and doesn't mess with others looking for reassurance. A non believer that needs to crush the beliefs of others on a daily basis is a vindictive creature that seeks social retaliation for not having the peace of mind that pure and simple believing brings.

Beware of those false believers and false non-believers.
 
A non believer that needs to crush the beliefs of others on a daily basis is a vindictive creature that seeks social retaliation for not having the peace of mind that pure and simple believing brings.
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Who do you know that does that? And how do you justify that assumption?
 
According to this site (scroll down a bit) the Egyptian god Khepri created ex nihilo. However, the site doesn't give the origin the text it quotes.
 
the PC apeman said:
I'm sympathetic with Krauss's goal there but disappointed with his argument. He actually concludes with 'A Universe from Zero' not nothing. (Analogous to what every first-year computer science student learns about zero versus null.)
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Yea he was dealing with a colloquial use of "nothing" attacking the preconception that space was a void. Turns out it isn't and it's "something".
 
TimCallahan said:
During the recent "Great Debate" about wether or not science has rendered religion obsolete, Ian Hutchinson, arguing for the theist side, fished out an old chestnut, one often used by creationists, to whit that the Genesis 1 creation myth differed from all others in that, in every other creation myth the gods and everything else arose out of a pre-existing abyss or chaos, often a universal sea. Only the God of the Bible, said Hutchinson, created the universe rather than being part of it. The evidence for this is rather slim. It consists of Gen. 1:1:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Since Gen. 1:1 doesn't specify that God made everything out of pre-existing primordial stuff, this has given rise to the doctrine of creation ex nihilo, "out of nothing."

While it's true that in most of the mythologies of the world the gods rise out of a pre-existing material, I can see three objections to Hutchinson's claim of the unique quality of Genesis 1:

1) First, saying that God created the heavens and the earth doesn't mean he created them ex nihilo.
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According to Professor Van Wolde, Genesis 1:1 does not speak about a creatio ex nihilo but speaks of separating heaven and earth from a pre-existing primordial soup. (link).
 
Stomatopoda said:
Turtles all the way down.
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Regression is unavoidable however you address the issue with rational thought.

Creation ex nihilo is illogical.

Spontaneous existence is illogical.

If you intend to address the issue with any seriousness you have to realise that regression is a consequence of human thought and may cloud the issue.
 
Perhaps I'm missing the point here. While it appears from the references given in this thread that the Judeo/Christian creation myth is not the only one that can be interpreted to imply "creation ex nihilo", even if it was, so what?
 
punshhh said:
Regression is unavoidable however you address the issue with rational thought.

Creation ex nihilo is illogical.

Spontaneous existence is illogical.

If you intend to address the issue with any seriousness you have to realise that regression is a consequence of human thought and may cloud the issue.
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Doing it with non human thought is alien to my nature.
 
Pope130 said:
Perhaps I'm missing the point here. While it appears from the references given in this thread that the Judeo/Christian creation myth is not the only one that can be interpreted to imply "creation ex nihilo", even if it was, so what?
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I don't know about anyone else, but I'm looking for more reasons to mock the solidity of Christianity.

That's what.


Actually, that's not true. However, learning about predecessors to Christianity is fascinating. I was very religious in college and took a History of Christian Thought class at U-Mich. It was quite eye-opening.
 
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Could this thread be split in two? There seems to be at least two entirely different topics.
 
ddt said:
According to Professor Van Wolde, Genesis 1:1 does not speak about a creatio ex nihilo but speaks of separating heaven and earth from a pre-existing primordial soup. (link).
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Genesis does that. But I am not entirly sure if the reasons given aren't a little specious. It is not entirely clear on what the new (is it??) idea of translating bara is based. Chances are, that it is a little circular.
 
New study of the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal that the creation myth was actually a cover-up. You see, God had some issues with his parents, so he got legally emancipated and pretended they didn't exist, and neither did the universe until he made it himself. It's an obvious nonsense that nothing existed before God, but it's considered polite to play along. He has a delicate ego.
 
TragicMonkey said:
New study of the Dead Sea Scrolls reveal that the creation myth was actually a cover-up. You see, God had some issues with his parents, so he got legally emancipated and pretended they didn't exist, and neither did the universe until he made it himself. It's an obvious nonsense that nothing existed before God, but it's considered polite to play along. He has a delicate ego.
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That would explain the endless demands for ego-stroking and reinforcement. And why the world sucks so much to boot.
 
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