Couterpunch's article: What did Israel know about 9/11

[busherie]

I have just finished reading the Counterpunch article:
What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?

The article can be found here, it's quite long but bery interesting:

High-Fivers and Art Student Spies

What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?

By CHRISTOPHER KETCHAM
On the afternoon of September 11, 2001, an FBI bulletin known as a BOLO *- "be on lookout" -- was issued with regard to three suspicious men who that morning were seen leaving the New Jersey waterfront minutes after the first plane hit World Trade Center 1. Law enforcement officers across the New York-New Jersey area were warned in the radio dispatch to watch for a "vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack":


White, 2000 Chevrolet van with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals.


At 3:56 p.m., twenty-five minutes after the issuance of the FBI BOLO, officers with the East Rutherford Police Department stopped the commercial moving van through a trace on the plates. According to the police report, Officer Scott DeCarlo and Sgt. Dennis Rivelli approached the stopped van, demanding that the driver exit the vehicle. The driver, 23-year-old Sivan Kurzberg, refused and "was asked several more times [but] appeared to be fumbling with a black leather fanny pouch type of bag". With guns drawn, the police then "physically removed" Kurzberg, while four other men *- two more men had apparently joined the group since the morning *- were also removed from the van, handcuffed, placed on the grass median and read their Miranda rights.

See Also:
The Kuala Lumpur Deceit: a CIA Cover Up by Christopher Ketcham
Ketcham's Story: Coming in From the Cold by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair
Christopher Ketcham is a freelance journalist who has written for Harper's and Salon. Many of his writings, including his groundbreaking story on the Israeli art students, can be read on his website www.christopherketcham.com. He can be reached at: cketcham99@mindspring.com

 

[uk_dave]

When I next visit a major american city, remind me to not carry any maps of the area andespecially to not circle or highlight any places of interest.

Oh and I shall make sure that all of my spending money is kept in an obvious location, such as a wallet, even if this does make it easier for a thief to find and take.

Oh and should some terrible terrorist event be carried out by an enemy of my country, for example the French, I'll be sure to not make any comments along the lines of "my enemy is your enemy" should I find myself questioned by the police.

Someone should consider updating travel guides with this important information.

 

[maccy]

Busherie, please edit your post - just put the link and any relevant quotes. You shouldn't paste the whole of a copyrighted piece into a post.

 

[JQH]

All this attempting to "prove" the Israelis had something to do with 9/11 is just the latest version of "proving" the Jews are responsible for the ills of the world. It is just anti-semitsm masquerading as international politics and has as much credibility as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

 

[malha111]

All this attempting to "prove" the Israelis had something to do with 9/11 is just the latest version of "proving" the Jews are responsible for the ills of the world. It is just anti-semitsm masquerading as international politics and has as much credibility as the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"

This line of reasoning is quite tiresome. Anti-semites MAY use this tactic (they're expected to do so) but everyone who do believe in this conspiracy is not an anti-semite.

 

[Firestone]

What is quite tiresome is the constant rehashing of stories like that of the "five dancing Israelis".

In typical CT mode, one starts from the conclusion. In this case: "Israel (or Zionists or Jews) is involved in the 9/11 attacks."
Then one looks for every snippet of information somehow related to Israel or Jews and the attacks. Never mind the source, never mind it has been debunked thousand times, never mind the relevance, anything will do. All the evidence going counter the theory is simply ignored.

In the last weeks, we had on this very forum:

• The hijackers were actually Israeli parachutists.
• The Anthrax attacks were an Israeli operation.
• Something incomprehensible about the USS Liberty.
• The huge profits of Larry Silverstein.
• The Niger-memo was a secret Israeli operation.
• The five dancing Israelis.
• The Odigo warning.

I'm sure I forget some.

All this without any evidence, of course.

Is this antisemitism? I don't care, really, what the motives are. It is baseless CT, tirelessly repeated over and over again. It is quite tiresome, yes.

 

[gumboot]

The OP of this thread is in breach of Rule 4 of the Membership Agreement. Please edit it as requested or I suspect someone will report it.

-Gumboot

 

[westprog]

Conclusions

Assuming that the facts are as stated, we can choose from a number of scenarios-

1. The Israelis masterminded the 911 attacks in order to get US support. There would be a slight risk to this, naturally, as if they were found out that could lead to the destruction of Israel. And they had US support anyway. But still, it's possible.
2. Mossad had infiltrated the cell planning 911, and knew the attacks were going to happen, but decided to let them go ahead to get US support. This would have the same downside if they were caught out.
3. Mossad had operatives spying on Arab/Muslim groups in the USA, but had no knowlege of the attacks. A few callous idiots saw the attacks and thought Israel would benefit.
4. Significant elements of the account given are factually wrong.

Which version you believe depends on the attitudes with which you arrive. If you think that three thousand Jews didn't turn up to work on the day of the attack then (1) will seem plausible.

 

[greyleonard]

Question for anyone but the OP:
Is "Maria" the only source for the Israeli's emotional attitude around the van?

"Maria: "They were like happy, you know� They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness."

Iow, isn't it true that the oft repeated cheering and celebrating is an exaggeration?
DU thread

 

[Firestone]

Question for anyone but the OP:
Is "Maria" the only source for the Israeli's emotional attitude around the van?

"Maria: "They were like happy, you know� They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness."

Iow, isn't it true that the oft repeated cheering and celebrating is an exaggeration?
DU thread

Yes.

There is no truth behind the "dancing" allegation. There is no truth behind the often repeated allegation that they filmed the first plane impact.

The story is empty. Three guys saw the WTC on fire, jumped on their van to film or photograph it, and made a disgraceful "joke" with a lighter. That's it.
They were later deported for visa-violation.

 

[a_unique_person]

Where is the "longest post of the month" nomination button?

 

[a_unique_person]

There are a lot of claims for this post, is there any evidence for any of it? Eg, When a quote is made, for at least some of these, there should be a link to the actual source. Otherwise, it is just a figment of someone's imagination.

 

[busherie]

I must apologize for the very long post: I didn't realize it was that long until i had started the thread. Sorry for that.

Clearly, this article is not evidence, it has very few sources. But it hightlights a certain number of coincidences.

I think that as many intelligence agncies in the world, the Isrealis (who by nature have to deal with this kind of threat) had some hints that a big operation were under way. Given the close connections between the US and Israel (please don't shout "you see he's antijews!) in the recent decades, the presence of Mossad agents would not be a surprise. In France for instance, prior to 1960, a guy like Shimon Peres had direct access to the foreign affairs ministry.

Now, the evidence presented by this article, is again by no mean evidence, and would need further investigating.

However the fact that were arrested, questionned, underwent lie detector tests, clearly shows you that the police had serious doubts they may have been connected some way to the attacks.

So being purely ironic as some threads are is not helping here.

Busherie

 

[Dave Rogers]

However the fact that were arrested, questionned, underwent lie detector tests, clearly shows you that the police had serious doubts they may have been connected some way to the attacks.

Just addressing this one point: however, the fact that they were subsequently deported as illegal aliens (if I recall correctly), rather than prosecuted for terrorism or related offenses, clearly shows you that, after questioning them very extensively, the police no longer had any serious suspicions that they were connected in any way to the attacks.

Dave

 

[valis]

Clearly, this article is not evidence, it has very few sources. But it hightlights a certain number of coincidences.

Excellent point! Were you aware, by the way, that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln?

Someone should look into that as well.

 

[WildCat]

Excellent point! Were you aware, by the way, that Lincoln had a secretary named Kennedy and Kennedy had a secretary named Lincoln?

Someone should look into that as well.

And Lincoln was shot in the Ford Theater, and Kennedy was shot in a car made by Ford, a Lincoln!11!!!!1 Conspiracy!!!1!!!!1

 

[Bandersnatch]

Booth shot Lincoln in a theater and hid in a warehouse, while Oswald shot Kennedy from a warehouse and hid in a theater.

OMG!...Even if the warehouse was a tabbaco shed...

 

[busherie]

Just addressing this one point: however, the fact that they were subsequently deported as illegal aliens (if I recall correctly), rather than prosecuted for terrorism or related offenses, clearly shows you that, after questioning them very extensively, the police no longer had any serious suspicions that they were connected in any way to the attacks.

Dave

This is one interpretation of the facts, though. As the article implies, the Isreali governemnt was not too happy that the US government was looking into what these guys were doing. A gentle pressure was applied and they deported them.

Politics are always complicated, and seldom transparent.


Busherie

 

[Loss Leader]

However the fact that were arrested, questionned, underwent lie detector tests, clearly shows you that the police had serious doubts they may have been connected some way to the attacks.

What is so intriguing about the fact that, during a time of great confusion and paranoia, the police followed up on every single lead they had? What evidence do you have that the police had "serious doubts" as opposed to just investigating the incident? How do you know that this incident caused the police any more "serious doubt" than anything else they investigated regarding 9/11?

Some of the people arrested in the months after 9/11 are still being held by the US without access to lawyers or their own embassies. If the police had "serious doubts" about these men, the doubts certainly weren't serious enough to keep the case open.

I think that as many intelligence agncies in the world, the Isrealis (who by nature have to deal with this kind of threat) had some hints that a big operation were under way. Given the close connections between the US and Israel (please don't shout "you see he's antijews!) in the recent decades, the presence of Mossad agents would not be a surprise.

Look at what you've written and ask yourself why we shouldn't believe that you are working backwards from your conclusions. What evidence do you have that Israel "had some hints that a big operation were under way"? You claim that "many" intelligence agencies in the world had some hints that the operation was underway. What is your evidence for this? What evidence do you have that having "some hints" could possibly have helped to stop the attack. After all, the US had "some hints" that Bin Laden was determined to attack within the US, but having no exact information of what type of attack or when left us unable to stop it.

And what evidence do you have that Israel "by nature" has to deal with "this kind of threat"? When was the last time jet liners were hijacked inside Israel and flown into large Israeli skyscrapers? "This kind of threat" can't mean that Palestinians with bombs strapped to their chests on busses is the same as a 757 ramming an office building, can it? Not all terrorism is just one "kind" of threat.

Clearly, this article is not evidence, it has very few sources. But it hightlights a certain number of coincidences. Now, the evidence presented by this article, is again by no mean evidence, and would need further investigating.

This is interesting. You state that the fact that the police were interested in these Israelis in New Jersey is evidence that the police "had serious doubts" about their story. You say that all major intelligence agencies had hints about something happening on 9/11. You say that Israel has experience with exactly this kind of terrorist activity. You imply that if Israel had shared the intelligence hints you think they had, the 9/11 attacks would have been averted.

And then you back off all of your statements by claiming that you don't mean to present evidence and are just pointing out coincidences?

You have laid some serious charges against the country of Israel. Are we really to believe that you just intend them as discussion points and that you don't actually stand by them? Do you honestly expect to avoid criticism of your opinions by claiming, "I'm not saying, I'm just saying ..."? "The words just happen to be coming out of my mouth but my brain has no involvement whatsoever" ?

This is not a Paul Riser bit. If you are "just saying" something, I will assume that you actually are saying it because you believe it. For pity's sake, have the courage of your convictions ... even if your convictions are anti-Semitic.

 

[Brainster]

There really is no "news" in this article that I can see; it's just the same tired horse that Justin Raimondo has been flogging for the last five years. The most sensational charge, that Israel had been aware of the 9-11 attacks is expressed with a torrent of weasel words: apparently, supported but not proven, seemingly, possible.

His point about the Israelis being within a six-mile radius of the AA77 hijackers is mildly interesting until you realize how densely populated Bergen County, New Jersey is; something like 450,000 people live in an average six-mile radius in that county.

Oooh, they had maps "with certain places highlighted"? Note that he doesn't say that they had the WTC highlighted, which is the only relevant place.