Court dimisses pledge case

phildonnia said:
From what I heard, most of the grilling he got was concerned with newdow's legal standing. So yeah, pretty much everyone expected this.

From a very good article a week ago by Vincent Phillip Muñoz

"To his credit, Michael Newdow — the lawyer who filed the pending litigation — studied the law and shrewdly brought the perfect case. He has backed the Court into a corner, pushing their accepted doctrines to their logical extreme. "

"... the Court has generally employed two doctrines to adjudicate establishment-clause disputes: the "endorsement" test and the "coercion" test.

The endorsement test prohibits the government from explicitly endorsing religion, purportedly to keep it religiously neutral. In the context of public schooling, however, "no endorsement" quickly becomes outright hostility. Activities that a child might perceive to favor religion must be prohibited. If rigorously applied, the test requires the elimination of religious language and symbols from the classroom, including the removal of the words "under God" from the Pledge.

The coercion test forbids the state from coercing religious practice. That standard may seem narrow, but in 1992 the Court prohibited non-denominational invocations and benedictions at public-school graduations because such exercises "psychologically coerce" students to participate in a religious exercise. Applying the same rule in 2000, it struck down the Texas tradition of nondenominational prayer before high-school football games, because, it said, some fans might feel like "outsiders." "
 
For added humour, Yahoo! News's headline on this is "Supreme Court Preserves "God" in Pledge."

They don't understand the difference between "thrown out on a technicality" and "preserves", it seems.
 
Hexxenhammer said:
Brown, if I remember right, your joke fooled some people. No wonder. You should have called it a "prediction" and claimed the million.
I have thought about it. I have to say that I was very surprised by how close my "joke" was to the actual opinions. I had thought I was being so extreme that my remarks would be seen as parody. It turns out that in many respects, my parody was pretty close to the mark.

In light of Justice Stevens's majority opinion, it would not have been appropriate for Justices Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg or Breyer to express an opinion about the constitutionality of the words in question. We should not assume that their silence on the issue is acquiescence.
 
pgwenthold said:
I gotta say, it's amazing how worked up people get over "ceremonial deism."
I agree. For Justice O'Connor to say that the phrase is an instance of ceremonial deism is--to be blunt--absurd. Based upon the public reaction to the Ninth Circuit's decision, it was obvious that most of the public saw the words "under God" as having profoundly religious significance.
 
Brown said:
Justice O'Connor drives the point home later, saying "the Constitution does not guarantee citizens a right entirely to avoid ideas with which they disagree." [/SIZE]

In general, no. The consistution does not guarantee citizens the right to force changing the color of the White House, for example.

However, the citizens' freedom from state-sponsored religion is most certainly guaranteed by the Constitution, right there in the first amendment.

Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of religion. Not a specific religion, but religion.

The "It is a non-specific religion" argument doesn't fly.
 
Brown said:
As of this writing, the New York Times web site headline says the case was "Dismissed on Technicality." I don't like the word "technicality" in this context. The issue is a constitutional one, not some sort of trivial quibble, as "technicality" implies.
I made this remark before reading the opinion.

Justice Stevens wrote the majority opinion, and based it upon a little-known concept called "prudential standing," NOT on constitutional standing. A remark from ceo_esq, that the finding "suggests a cautious reluctance to make new case law when not absolutely necessary," is very close to the mark.

Basically, to show "standing" is to show that a party has the right to bring the suit. Usually, "standing" is discussed in constitutional terms. There must be a "case or controversy" under Article III of the Constitution before the Court can act: "The plaintiff must show that the conduct of which he complains has caused him to suffer an 'injury in fact' that a favorable judgment will redress."

But there is another "strand" of standing called "prudential standing": "[P]rudential standing encompasses 'the general prohibition on a litigant's raising another person's legal rights, the rule barring adjudication of generalized grievances more appropriately addressed in the representative branches, and the requirement that a plaintiff's complaint fall within the zone of interests protected by the law invoked.'" It was "prudential standing" that was the decisive issue:
In our view, it is improper for the federal courts to entertain a claim by a plaintiff whose standing to sue is founded on family law rights that are in dispute when prosecution of the lawsuit may have an adverse effect on the person who is the source of the plaintiff's claimed standing. When hard questions of domestic relations are sure to affect the outcome, the prudent course is for the federal court to stay its hand rather than reach out to resolve a weighty question of federal constitutional law. There is a vast difference between Newdow's right to communicate with his child--which both California law and the First Amendment recognize--and his claimed right to shield his daughter from influences to which she is exposed in school despite the terms of the custody order. We conclude that, having been deprived under California law of the right to sue as next friend, Newdow lacks prudential standing to bring this suit in federal court.
A decision on the merits would have required the Court to interfere with matters of family law, which could affect not just the parties to the case but the millions of family law cases already pending in state courts. In short, the case wasn't "clean" enough for a decision on the merits.

Here's another million-dollar prediction: Look for someone to generate a "clean" case to force the issue. Some religious folks may be crowing about the opinions from Justices Rehnquist, O'Connor and Thomas, but keep in mind that those folks have tipped their hands. A new challenger will be ready to tackle those points.
 
Brown said:
Here's another million-dollar prediction: Look for someone to generate a "clean" case to force the issue. Some religious folks may be crowing about the opinions from Justices Rehnquist, O'Connor and Thomas, but keep in mind that those folks have tipped their hands. A new challenger will be ready to tackle those points.

I was wondering about this. I think OConnor's claims could be attacked very strongly. Thomas is a tough one, because he knows very well that Newdow's case is based in the present law, but wants to overturn the law (as mentioned, so much for "activist judges")

I don't think you can do anything with Rehnquist. He believes it's not a religious invocation (aka "prayer"), just a description. OTOH, maybe that's his weak spot. Maybe one could argue that it doesn't matter whether it is a prayer, but it is a government statement that the country is religious?

OTOH, as you note, fortunately you know what to address in your arguments.
 
Just to stir the pot a little...

So the main objection, as I see it, is the generic nod to religion in general (God vs. Ganesh vs. Allah vs. Jesus vs. Whatever Scientologists Have). So in encompassing all religions - or at least trying to do so - it becomes not a Christian vs. Jew/Muslim/Buddhist etc thing, but a religious versus athiest thing.

Okay. Since the idea is that it endorses no particular religion, I don't see the church & state separation issue as a real concern, any more than "In God we trust" on the currency.

Suppose my belief system leads me to the conviction that this nation doesn't provide "liberty and justice for all." Or maybe I don't believe the nation is truly indivisible. What's the difference bewteen me parroting a line I don't believe, and an athiest saying "under God," apart from the general distaste of it all?
 
When you say "under God" thats basically a Judeo-Christian thing,. They try n rope in Muslim but that bullflop. If you changed it to "under Allah" the Jesus freaks would scream bloody hell.

But since its been aroudn 50 years I say it skates under tradional americana. If congress tried to add the words today youd have a difft story.
 
Brown said:
Without going into too much detail, here are some of the most disturbing aspects of the opinions of Justices Rehnquist, O'Connor and Thomas. Keep in mind that these opinions do not have the effect of law, but may carry persuasive value in later cases.
I haven't read the decision yet. At this point I don't understand why, if the case was really dismissed because Newdow didn't have standing, the justices are commenting on so many different aspects of the case. Seems like they should have just said Newdow doesn't have standing, and let it go at that.
 
I'd just like to say that I'm tired of people complaining about my "Die, [censored], die" bumper sticker. Come on, people! It's ceremonial racism! Why can't you get that? I'm just honoring this country's racist heritage. Most of this country's founders were racist. Racism was one of the bedrocks on which this nation was founded. I'm not racist, I'm patriotic. Sheesh!

ceo_esq said:
Yes, as if the first case hadn't ever been filed.
So even though the ninth circuit has made a ruling, it can't be cited as precedent? Can it be cited as nonbinding precedent?

Brown
Get that? It's a "descriptive phrase," not a profession of any religious principle. But would it be equally descriptive, equally non-religious, if the Pledge said "under no God?" We are left to wonder.
We are also left to wonder whether "descriptive phrase" and "establishment of religion" are supposed to be mutually exclusive. Would "one nation, where atheists are not welcome" be constitutionially OK since it's a descriptive phrase?

Also something else I was wondering: if a conviction is overturned "on a technicality", can the prosecutor tell the jury in the retrial that the first jury convicted? Isn't the fact that the first jury convicted "poison fruit"?
 
Jocko said:
Okay. Since the idea is that it endorses no particular religion, I don't see the church & state separation issue as a real concern,


The constitution doesn't say anything about respecting the establishment of a "particular religion." It prohibits congress from passing a law that respects the establishment of "religion," not "a religion."

So from a consitutional issue, it doesn't matter.



any more than "In God we trust" on the currency.

Which has also been contested. Now, if your argument is that the IGWT provides a precedent, you might have an argument. OTOH, isn't Newdow trying to bring that case up next?
 
Jeff R said:
I haven't read the decision yet. At this point I don't understand why, if the case was really dismissed because Newdow didn't have standing, the justices are commenting on so many different aspects of the case. Seems like they should have just said Newdow doesn't have standing, and let it go at that.
Only three of the justices offered opinions on the Pledge issue. Justices Rehnquist, O'Connor and Thomas felt that Dr. Newdow DID have standing. They concluded he still should have lost on the merits of his challenge.
 
"Which has also been contested. Now, if your argument is that the IGWT provides a precedent, you might have an argument. OTOH, isn't Newdow trying to bring that case up next?"
Yes, isn't it interesting how each piece of bigotry is then used to justify further acts? What part of "two wrongs don't make a right" do these people not understand?

So, has an effort started yet to find someone with clear standing? I really don't think this should stand, but I'm not a parent. Have any teachers been disciplined for refusing to set aside time for the pledge?
 
"So, has an effort started yet to find someone with clear standing? I really don't think this should stand, but I'm not a parent. Have any teachers been disciplined for refusing to set aside time for the pledge?"


Errr...I wasn't aware that any aspect of this case had anything to do with anyone being forced to say the Pledge.
 
Ipecac said:
Brown, good to see you!

I read a lot of it and I agree. Disturbing.


The decision that was made really ticks me off.

And yes, I agree with Ipecac...

This is all extremely disturbing.
 
What are we going to do? President George Bush (senior) called atheists, and I quote from http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm:

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in god is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.

President George 'Dubya' Bush (the second) is even more of a fundamental Christian than his father. He's done just about everything humanly possible to support his cause: school vouchers, faith-based funding, stacking the SCOTUS, Ashcroft, marriage act, war on Islam (can you say 'Crusade') and so on.

The Newdow case, although I'll have to agree with the SCOTUS ruling, was doomed from the start. There is no way that they would side with Newdow as long as Bush is our President. Any technicallity would have done...

Is there a cure for religious idiocy?

Kuroyume
 
kuroyume0161 said:
The Newdow case, although I'll have to agree with the SCOTUS ruling, was doomed from the start. There is no way that they would side with Newdow as long as Bush is our President.
I don't know about that. The big case this year was Locke v. Davey, decided February 25, and in that case the Court determined that the State of Washington’s "exclusion of the pursuit of a devotional theology degree from its otherwise-inclusive scholarship aid program does not violate the Free Exercise Clause."

Lots of religious folks (and the Bush administration) were expecting the decision to go the other way, but this decision was seen as a victory for church-state separation. Chief Justice Rehnquist wrote the opinion, and the decision was 7-2.

In general, the Supreme Court does not take into account who happens to be in power when making decisions.
 
Brown said:
And, of course, standing is required by the Constitution. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.

Even so, the Court has, on occasion, relaxed the standing requirement. One of the more notable examples was the case of Bush vs. Gore, in which the Supreme Court allowed Bush to put forth an Equal Protection challenge to a voting system on behalf of Florida voters, even though Bush himself was not a Florida voter, and his right to vote was not affected in any way.
Don't remind me!!!
 
Brown said:
Here's another million-dollar prediction: Look for someone to generate a "clean" case to force the issue. Some religious folks may be crowing about the opinions from Justices Rehnquist, O'Connor and Thomas, but keep in mind that those folks have tipped their hands. A new challenger will be ready to tackle those points.
Good!
 

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