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Court dimisses pledge case

chrisberez

Thinker
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
234
This is exactly what I expected would happen.

Still, I can't help feeling pissed-off. There has got to be another way for Newdow to address the pledge issue without basing it on his daughter. His case is right, and the "under God" line should be stricken from the pledge, but the fact that he didn't have legal custody over his daughter was destined to undermine the case. You could see this coming a mile away.
 
From what I heard, most of the grilling he got was concerned with newdow's legal standing. So yeah, pretty much everyone expected this.
 
Now if someone else with "standing" files a suit, what happens? Does it work it's way back through the court system?
 
I generally find it reassuring when the Supreme Court dismisses a case for lack of standing. It suggests a cautious reluctance to make new case law when not absolutely necessary, which I think is an appropriate judicial attitude.

However, I think the Ninth Circuit probably botched this one on the merits and would have been reversed.
 
Calee said:
Now if someone else with "standing" files a suit, what happens? Does it work it's way back through the court system?
Yes, as if the first case hadn't ever been filed.
 
While I find the reasoning of the SC to be valid, this is no way justifies the inclusion of 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance (as will be hailed from the Atlantic to Pacific by the moral majority and religious zombies). What Newdow now needs is to find as many people as possible with standing to continue to have it removed.

From Reuters:

Solicitor General Theodore Olson of the Justice Department argued the pledge was not a state-sponsored prayer, not a religious ritual and not the teaching of religious doctrine.

Where are P&T when ya need 'em?! This is unadulterated BS! Well, yes, of course the Pledge is not any of these in its entirety. It is just that little inclusion of God, who, by definition, is the object of religious veneration, the creator of religious doctrine, and the receiver of 'prayers'. There are few religions wherein this is not the case and certainly not the case for many agnostics, all atheists, and most deists. Deists may say 'God', but they mean 'universe' - try replacing 'under God' with 'under the universe' and see how much sense that makes. 'Under God' insinuates, as was meant', subordination to a 'higher' power. I don't believe in a 'higher power', as do at least 10% of the population. Another fallacious deduction in this crumbling nation - we're the majority, f!*k the minority.

Are all lawyers idiots? Olson twisted it beyond stress and broke the entire chain of thought. Newdow is not interested in removing the Pledge, he is interested in removing 'under God' from the Pledge - a recent inclusion by those afraid of the 'Pinkos'; in the time of MacCarthyism and the Cold War.

I find it hard to imagine that so many people are that well indoctrinated... Why do we have brains, consciousness, intelligence, technology anyway?

Kuroyume
 
ceo_esq said:
I generally find it reassuring when the Supreme Court dismisses a case for lack of standing. It suggests a cautious reluctance to make new case law when not absolutely necessary, which I think is an appropriate judicial attitude.

I quite agree... in fact the USSC will LOOK for any reason to resolve the case without ruling on the major issue. This is not cowardice, but because a case which can be resolved based on something other than the constitutional issue, does not make good precedent. The kind of case that truly settles a constitutional issue is one that is free of extraneous matters that can resolve the case in the absence of the constitutional issue.
 
ceo_esq said:
I generally find it reassuring when the Supreme Court dismisses a case for lack of standing. It suggests a cautious reluctance to make new case law when not absolutely necessary, which I think is an appropriate judicial attitude.
And, of course, standing is required by the Constitution. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.

Even so, the Court has, on occasion, relaxed the standing requirement. One of the more notable examples was the case of Bush vs. Gore, in which the Supreme Court allowed Bush to put forth an Equal Protection challenge to a voting system on behalf of Florida voters, even though Bush himself was not a Florida voter, and his right to vote was not affected in any way.

As of this writing, the opinion is not yet available at the Supreme Court web site.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Yep, I think the Court is full of cowards.

Posting this in a subforum of a not so well known bulletin board will practically force them to hear you Ken!!!!

:rolleyes:
 
What a bogus punt!

He has shared legal custody so he has authority over his kids religious upbringing.
 
Awwwwwwww.......


What will the poor lawyers do with themselves. Find a new occupation, one that has a basic sense of ethics?


No, I'm sure there's a pedophile who raped and killed a 5-year old girl who needs their services. Or some illegal immigrants they could use for insurance fraud against a municipality where taxpayers will pick up the burden.


But for now, a whole 1 second will be wasted by America's uninterested public school inmates every morning by saying "under God" during the Pledge. (How ever will I sleep at night?!?!)
 
Tmy said:
What a bogus punt!

He has shared legal custody so he has authority over his kids religious upbringing.
That may be true. Saying that the Court "punted" or "ducked the issue" is somewhat disrespectful, but it gives a layperson a pretty good idea about what happened.

To be fair, the Supreme Court doesn't consider itself a "family court." It normally doesn't involve itself in issues of custody and parental rights, because those are usually state concerns.

As of this writing, the New York Times web site headline says the case was "Dismissed on Technicality." I don't like the word "technicality" in this context. The issue is a constitutional one, not some sort of trivial quibble, as "technicality" implies.

The word "technicality" is also used when other constitutional rights are at issue, such as when a culpable person goes free because evidence against him was obtained through a search without a warrant or a denial of right to counsel. People say the guy "got off on a technicality." No, he got off because of the Constitution.

I see that the Times web site has the full text of the decision. I'm off to read it.
 
phildonnia said:
From what I heard, most of the grilling he got was concerned with newdow's legal standing. So yeah, pretty much everyone expected this.

Newdow had no standing. The vote was 8-0 with Scalia recusing himself.

Is Ruth Ginzburg a sneaky religious right type?
 
Spooky.

On April 1st, in this thread, I wrote--as a JOKE--that the Pledge would be upheld in a unanimous decision. I also wrote--as a JOKE--an "opinion" from Justices Rehnquist, O'Connor and Kennedy that included the following:
It is beyond dispute that the principal founders of this Nation were religious men. History does not record any founder who denied the existence of the Supreme Being. Furthermore, it is beyond dispute that religious motivations were the primary impetus behind the founding of this Nation.
Justice Rehnquist ACTUALLY wrote the following:
The phrase "under God" in the Pledge seems, as a historical matter, to sum up the attitude of the Nation's leaders, and to manifest itself in many of our public observances. Examples of patriotic invocations of God and official acknowledgments of religion's role in our Nation's history abound.
...
All of these events strongly suggest that our national culture allows public recognition of our Nation's religious history and character. In the words of the House Report that accompanied the insertion of the phrase "under God" in the Pledge: "From the time of our earliest history our peoples and our institutions have reflected the traditional concept that our Nation was founded on a fundamental belief in God."
The same JOKE opinion also included the following:
Newdow protests that, as an atheist who does not believe in a Supreme Being, his beliefs are attacked by the words “under God” in the officially sanctioned Pledge. This protest is without merit. Firstly, Newdow’s belief has no bearing upon God’s existence. God exists whether Newdow believes it or not. Second, Newdow is still at liberty to believe as he wishes, as long as he keeps his views to himself out of respect for the views of the majority of Americans.
Justice Rehnquist ACTUALLY wrote the following:
There is no doubt that respondent is sincere in his atheism and rejection of a belief in God. But the mere fact that he disagrees with this part of the Pledge does not give him a veto power over the decision of the public schools that willing participants should pledge allegiance to the flag in the manner prescribed by Congress.
I also wrote another JOKE opinion (attributed to Justices Stevens, Ginsburg and Breyer) that said:
The Pledge is not a prayer. It is an expression of patriotism. There is no Constitutional difficulty associated with urging schoolchildren to utter it. Similarly, there would be no Constitutional difficulty associated with educating children about the patriotic duties imposed upon them by the Almighty, as long as such education did not include praying. Moreover, there would be no Constitutional hurdle to requiring students to sing a patriotic anthem such as “God Bless America” before beginning each day’s studies.
Justice Rehnquist ACTUALLY wrote:
How much consideration anyone gives to the phrase probably varies, since the Pledge itself is a patriotic observance focused primarily on the flag and the Nation, and only secondarily on the description of the Nation.
...
The phrase "under God" is in no sense a prayer, nor an endorsement of any religion, but a simple recognition of the fact noted in H. R. Rep. No. 1693, at 2: "From the time of our earliest history our peoples and our institutions have reflected the traditional concept that our Nation was founded on a fundamental belief in God." Reciting the Pledge, or listening to others recite it, is a patriotic exercise, not a religious one; participants promise fidelity to our flag and our Nation, not to any particular God, faith, or church.
Justice O'Connor ACTUALLY wrote:
Many of our patriotic songs contain overt or implicit references to the divine, among them: "America" ("Protect us by thy might, great God our King"); "America the Beautiful" ("God shed his grace on thee"); and "God bless America."
The same JOKE opinion said:
This Court has often recognized that the name of the Almighty may be invoked in a variety of governmental contexts without creating Constitutional difficulty. It is well recognized that, in such contexts, the name of God is without any religious significance. The words “under God” are included in the Pledge for no function other than ceremonial purposes.
Justice O'Connor ACTUALLY wrote:
Given the values that the Establishment Clause was meant to serve, however, I believe that government can, in a discrete category of cases, acknowledge or refer to the divine without offending the Constitution. This category of "ceremonial deism" most clearly encompasses such things as the national motto ("In God We Trust"), religious references in traditional patriotic songs such as the Star-Spangled Banner, and the words with which the Marshal of this Court opens each of its sessions ("God save the United States and this honorable Court").
There is some really interesting stuff in the opinions--some of it profundly disturbing, in my view--about which I expect to write more later.
 
Brown, good to see you!

I read a lot of it and I agree. Disturbing.
 
Brown, if I remember right, your joke fooled some people. No wonder. You should have called it a "prediction" and claimed the million.
 
That phrase 'ceremonial deism' certainly adds a new wrinkle to the 'freedom of/freedom from' religion argument.

Look for the fundie religious to try and stretch that to cover everything they can...
"It's not mandatory prayer, it's just a 'ceremony!!!'.
'We weren't burning her at the stake for being a witch, it's just a 'ceremony'!!!'

But on the other hand, I would guess that banning all mention of God from any aspect of public life, would probably make the value of my old Steppenwolf albums go up.
 
crimresearch said:
That phrase 'ceremonial deism' certainly adds a new wrinkle to the 'freedom of/freedom from' religion argument.

I gotta say, it's amazing how worked up people get over "ceremonial deism."
 
Without going into too much detail, here are some of the most disturbing aspects of the opinions of Justices Rehnquist, O'Connor and Thomas. Keep in mind that these opinions do not have the effect of law, but may carry persuasive value in later cases.

The only justice to directly address the rights of atheists was Chief Justice Rehnquist:
There is no doubt that respondent is sincere in his atheism and rejection of a belief in God. But the mere fact that he disagrees with this part of the Pledge does not give him a veto power over the decision of the public schools that willing participants should pledge allegiance to the flag in the manner prescribed by Congress.
In other words, if Congress prescribes that a patriotic recitation shall have the words "under God" in it, then an atheist has no cause to complain. Justice Rehnquist continued:
The recital, in a patriotic ceremony pledging allegiance to the flag and to the Nation, of the descriptive phrase 'under God' cannot possibly lead to the establishment of a religion, or anything like it.
Get that? It's a "descriptive phrase," not a profession of any religious principle. But would it be equally descriptive, equally non-religious, if the Pledge said "under no God?" We are left to wonder.

Justices O'Connor and Thomas seemed to take the view that atheists have no rights to challenge Government-endorsed pronouncements that refer to God. Justice O'Connor at first seemed to say that religious acknowledgements that favor one religion over another are improper:
As a result, no religious acknowledgment could claim to be an instance of ceremonial deism if it explicitly favored one particular religious belief system over another.
But hold onto your hat. Justice O'Connor then went on to marvel that the words "under God" were so inclusive and at the same time non-sectarian:
The Pledge ... does not refer to a nation "under Jesus" or "under Vishnu," but instead acknowledges religion in a general way: a simple reference to a generic "God." Of course, some religions--Buddhism, for instance--are not based upon a belief in a separate Supreme Being. But one would be hard pressed to imagine a brief solemnizing reference to religion that would adequately encompass every religious belief expressed by any citizen of this Nation. The phrase "under God," conceived and added at a time when our national religious diversity was neither as robust nor as well recognized as it is now, represents a tolerable attempt to acknowledge religion and to invoke its solemnizing power without favoring any individual religious sect or belief system. (emphasis added)
I find this quotation to be among the most startling, and the most bothersome. It suggests that the Government CAN favor religious belief over atheism as long as the Government does not specify which particular religion is being favored. Atheists could rightly look on this opinion as saying that they are second-class citizens. Justice O'Connor drives the point home later, saying "the Constitution does not guarantee citizens a right entirely to avoid ideas with which they disagree." In other words, atheist who disagree with the Pledge should shut up.

If we just look at the language in Justice O'Connor's opinion that I've underlined, it would seem that the most expeditious solution would be for the Government not to take sides at all! Instead of trying to please most of the people, while excluding the rest, wouldn't it be better simply not to have the words in question at all?

Justice Thomas's opinion is disturbing in its own right, and in a way, is a striking contrast to Justice O'Connor's opinion. Justice O'Connor basically says that "We've always done it this way'--including references to God in public ceremonies--"so we can continue doing it." Justice Thomas, however, seeks to change the law entirely. If Justice Thomas were to apply precedent, he says, then Dr. Newdow would win the case!
Adherence to [school invocation case] Lee [v. Weisman] would require us to strike down the Pledge policy, which, in most respects, poses more serious difficulties than the prayer at issue in Lee. A prayer at graduation is a one-time event, the graduating students are almost (if not already) adults, and their parents are usually present. By contrast, very young students, removed from the protection of their parents, are exposed to the Pledge each and every day.
...
I conclude that, as a matter of our precedent, the Pledge policy is unconstitutional. I believe, however, that Lee was wrongly decided. Lee depended on a notion of "coercion" that, as I discuss below, has no basis in law or reason. The kind of coercion implicated by the Religion Clauses is that accomplished "by force of law and threat of penalty." (emphasis in original)
As long as atheists are in no danger of being fined or tossed in the pokey for refusing to recite the Pledge, they have no First Amendment right to complain.

Justice Thomas hammers this point home by going on to opine that the Establishment Clause protects states rather than individuals, and that states can establish religions if they wish to do so.

President Bush holds up Justice Thomas as a judge that applies the law and does not make the law. If this opinion is any indication, Justice Thomas is exactly the opposite.

One might assume--given my above discussion--that it is only atheists who are upset by the words "under God" in the Pledge. This is not so. There are many people of faith who are troubled by these words also. Some of them feel that the government has no business telling them that the country is "under God." Others feel that the name of the Almighty is to be used exclusively for prayer, praise and thanksgiving, and if Justice O'Connor is right, "under God" is nothing more than ceremonial deism that falls into none of these categories.

Edited for spelling and clarity.
 

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