countries that execute juvenile offenders

[The Don]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offenders

Why should a cold blooded muderer get a second chance at life?

Because maybe there were reasons for his cold blooded murder

Maybe he wasn't mentally well at the time

Maybe he just changed

And as Varwoche said:

Maybe he wasn't guilty


Tell me Tony why do you (and others like you) want to kill people ? Is it revenge, retribution, punishment...... what ?

Or do you just like having the power of life and death over people ?

 

[varwoche]

The youngest person I could find who was executed for crimes he committed as a minor is ...

This page has details. The youngest was age 23.
deathpenaltyinfo.org

varwoche

 

[Tony]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offenders

Because maybe there were reasons for his cold blooded murder

There's reasons for a lot of cold-blooded murders. Greed, selfishness, lack of empathy, hate, and anger to name a few.

Maybe he wasn't mentally well at the time

That should and does get taken into account.

Maybe he just changed

So? That's not going to unmurder the victim.

Maybe he wasn't guilty

Well then he wouldn't be a cold-blooded murderer then, would he?

Tell me Tony why do you (and others like you) want to kill people ? Is it revenge, retribution, punishment...... what ?

Revenge. If someone kills or rapes my mom/dad/brother/sister/girlfriend/friends/ or an innocent stranger I don't even know, I want that bastard to die. And guess what? There is nothing wrong with that.

Or do you just like having the power of life and death over people ?

Sorry to disappoint, but no.

 

[The Don]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offenders

1. There's reasons for a lot of cold-blooded murders. Greed, selfishness, lack of empathy, hate, and anger to name a few.

2. That should and does get taken into account.

3. So? That's not going to unmurder the victim.

4. Well then he wouldn't be a cold-blooded murderer then, would he?

5. Revenge. If someone kills or rapes my mom/dad/brother/sister/girlfriend/friends/ or an innocent stranger I don't even know, I want that bastard to die. And guess what? There is nothing wrong with that.

1. Exactly you presume cold bloodedness, it may not have been so

2. It often doesn't which accounts for the high proportion of "less adequate" people who end up being executed

3. Neither is killing the perpetrator

4. And sometimes juries get it wrong because of the evidence, defence or thier inbuilt prejudice

5. FEELING that way isn't necessarily wrong. DOING somehting about it is in my opinion wrong. I see that rape,in your opinion, should be a capital crime, what others would you consider ?

 

[Lothian]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offenders

[

Maybe he wasn't mentally well at the time.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Tony


That should and does get taken into account.

Similarly to child offenders, the USA is one of the rare countries in the world that executes mentally ill and mentally retarded people. More than 30 prisoners with major mental problems have been executed since 1984 [Conley et al., 1992; Keyes et al., 1997] opposing the resolutions 1984/50 of the United Nations (UN) and 1989/64 of the UN Economic and Social Council where the elimination of the death penalty for those with mental diseases or very limited mental capability is recommended. The legal standard for mental competency for execution in the USA is that the prisoner must understand the reason for, and the reality of, the punishment. This standard, however, has allowed prisoners with serious mental illnesses to be put to death. The Supreme Court has never ruled that mental retardation is a reason for an exemption from execution. However its justices found that mental retardation should be considered as a mitigating factor in a death-penalty trial and that Texas’ criminal justice system lacked a proper procedure to introduce mitigating circumstance to jurors.



For instance, criminal justice expert, Prof. M.S. Adams (University of North Carolina at Wilmington) has recently urged the Governor of Texas, G.W. Bush, to grant clemency to J.P. Penry. Adams claims that the Supreme Court had erred in this case. He thinks the decision (Penry v. Lynaugh, 1989) contradicts Stanford v. Kentucky (1989) which prevents the execution of 15-year-olds whereas J.P. Penry has been recognized by several psychiatric experts to have the mental age of a six-year-old. « Mental age is directly relevant to moral culpability. Chronological age is merely a proxy. The Court’s decision defies both common sense and common decency », said Adams. In January 2000 Larry Robison, who was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic, was executed in Texas. In August 2000, Oliver Cruz with a questioned IQ below 70 was has been executed in Texas despite numerous worldwide appeals for clemency

from
here

 

[Tony]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offenders

1. Exactly you presume cold bloodedness, it may not have been so

How can it not? Give an example of a non-cold blooded murder.

2. It often doesn't which accounts for the high proportion of "less adequate" people who end up being executed

Can you support this?

3. Neither is killing the perpetrator

I never said it was.

4. And sometimes juries get it wrong because of the evidence, defence or thier inbuilt prejudice.

And this, IMO, is the best argument against the death penalty. The fact that an innocent person could get put to death.

But why isn't this used as an argument against ALL punishment? Do you thing it's ok for an innocent person to spend a lifetime in prison for a crime they didnt commit?

5. FEELING that way isn't necessarily wrong. DOING somehting about it is in my opinion wrong.

I disagree, if you kill someone I love and the state doesnt kill you for me, I'll do it myself.

I see that rape,in your opinion, should be a capital crime, what others would you consider ?

Not at all, in fact, I find it hard to support the idea of sentencing someone to jail for a long period someone in for robbery.

But rape and murder are unparalleled.

 

[varwoche]

For the record, my opposition to the death penalty is in NO WAY based on ANY sympathy for the vile people who commit violent acts. Rather:

1) foremost--the profound injustice/immorality of (potentially) executing an innocent, and irreversibility thereof
2) inequality as applied to race
3) a matter of personal morality

varwoche

 

[The Don]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offenders

1. How can it not? Give an example of a non-cold blooded murder.

2. Can you support this?

3. But why isn't this used as an argument against ALL punishment? Do you thing it's ok for an innocent person to spend a lifetime in prison for a crime they didnt commit?

4. I disagree, if you kill someone I love and the state doesnt kill you for me, I'll do it myself.

1. If the definition of Murder is "killing in cold blood" (whatever that means) then I guess no. I'm just not sure what constitues coldbloodedness.

2. Yes, read some case studies. Executed people as a proportion of murderers are more disadvantaged

3. At least there is some element of "reversableness" and partial recompense possible

4. Then you'd be a murderer because by any "normal" standards the pre-planned killing of someone constitutes murder

Of course in your world justice is quick, summarily dispensed and is handed out by the mob.

 

[richardm]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offenders

How can it not? Give an example of a non-cold blooded murder.

For example...

A particularly confused case. But even if the guy with the gun had been hanged, you might argue that it was done in the heat of the moment.

 

[Tony]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offenders

3. At least there is some element of "reversableness" and partial recompense possible

As there is when someone recieves the death sentence. Or are you not aware of the appeals process?

Of course in your world justice is quick, summarily dispensed and is handed out by the mob.

Idiot.

I'll ignore the blatant strawman and say that I guess mob justice is ok when it relates to universal health care, but not when it relates to murder?

 

[richardm]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offen

As there is when someone recieves the death sentence. Or are you not aware of the appeals process?

What about improvements in forensic science that can be used to rule people out of a murder (or indeed, into one) years after the original trials? Who knows what further improvements might come after the appeals process is exhausted?

At least if you've bunged them in jail for 20 years you can let them out with a handshake from the Governer and a shilling from the till. That's not something you can do if you've had them killed.

 

[Tony]

1) foremost--the profound injustice/immorality of (potentially) executing an innocent, and irreversibility thereof

The what about the profound injustice of imprisoning an innocent person for life?

2) inequality as applied to race

And of course you have evidence it is BECAUSE of race?

 

[Tony]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: countries that execute juvenile offen

What about improvements in forensic science that can be used to rule people out of a murder (or indeed, into one) years after the original trials? Who knows what further improvements might come after the appeals process is exhausted?

At least if you've bunged them in jail for 20 years you can let them out with a handshake from the Governer and a shilling from the till. That's not something you can do if you've had them killed.

Like I said, the "an innocent person can be put to death argument" is the best against the death penalty. I just think that argument should extend to ALL forms of punishment.

 

[Tmy]

The thread is about offing JUVINILES. So its safe to assume the kid did the deed and was tried fairly. Innocent people getting the DP is irrelevent.

Fisrt off Juvy courts dont have the DP so these kids were tried as adults. Yeah they may not have been 18 but so what. Its not like you are stricken with wisdom on your 18th bday. 18 is just an arbitrary legal line just as "juvinile" is a legal term that is not equal to under 18.

 

[varwoche]

The what about the profound injustice of imprisoning an innocent person for life?

True, perfection is not realistically possible. But as richardm says, at least a person found innocent, via DNA testing or whatever, can be released and compensated.

And of course you have evidence it is BECAUSE of race?

No. But surely the statistical inequity, even sans proof that race is the reason, gives pause. Maybe the real reason is poverty, not race. Would you consider it just if it was found that poor people received disproportionate death sentences?

varwoche

 

[Tony]

True, perfection is not realistically possible. But as richardm says, at least a person found innocent, via DNA testing or whatever, can be released and compensated.

How many cases do you know of the government compensating people who were wrongly imprisoned?

No. But surely the statistical inequity, even sans proof that race is the reason, gives pause. Maybe the real reason is poverty, not race. Would you consider it just if it was found that poor people received disproportionate death sentences?

No I wouldn't. Such a sympton is an indication that reform(s) are needed. I think I'll be snowboarding in hell before that happens though. Too many people benefit off the current status quo.

 

[Luke T.]

This page has details. The youngest was age 23.
deathpenaltyinfo.org

varwoche

I meant the youngest at the time of their crime. And that was 16 for Sellers. Younger than that, you have to go back more than 40 years.

 

[Luke T.]

For the record, my opposition to the death penalty is in NO WAY based on ANY sympathy for the vile people who commit violent acts. Rather:

1) foremost--the profound injustice/immorality of (potentially) executing an innocent, and irreversibility thereof
2) inequality as applied to race
3) a matter of personal morality

varwoche

There is an inequality of minorities in the general prison population, too. That doesn't necessarily imply the justice system is unfair. It means minorities commit more than their fair share of crime.

We can debate the root causes of why that is, or have another topic on the death penalty, or we can stick to juvenile death penalty cases.

 

[Tmy]

There is an inequality of minorities in the general prison population, too. That doesn't necessarily imply the justice system is unfair. It means minorities commit more than their fair share of crime.

We can debate the root causes of why that is, or have another topic on the death penalty, or we can stick to juvenile death penalty cases.

It means they get convicted more, doesnt mean they did more than their share.


As far as DP bias goes I have two words. SUSAN SMITH!!! That bitch drowed her 2 small kids cause they were a burnden to her social life, she lied and made up a stroy about some black guys doing it, she cried on camera fooling the whole country.

SHE DID NOT GET THE DEATH PENALTY!!!!!??? Can you think of a worse crime???

Shes a pretty young white girl, thats how she dodged the DP. Imagine if the cops found some black guy who then got this crime pinned to him??? Youthink hed avoid the DP?

 

[Darat]

How many cases do you know of the government compensating people who were wrongly imprisoned?

...snip...

In the UK we've had quite a few high profile cases over the last few years of (on appeal) "wrongful" and "unsafe" convictions being overturned or quashed.

And in the UK compensation is paid, even though we now have the ridiculous idea that these wrongfully imprisoned citizens should now pay for their "board" during their imprisonment.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2838795.stm