Could the thunderbird of Indian lore be brought back through cloning?

[Cainkane1]

All the Thunderbird was was a giant condor. Condors aren't extinct so why couldn't DNA from the extinct bird be mixed with the DNA of a living Condor?

 

[casebro]

Can you supply proof that there was a recently extinct "giant condor" not just the endangered California Condor ?

AAAaand, supply the genetic material for study?

I bleeve the Chilean Condor is the larger sub-species, perhaps good for DNA comparison, if you do find Thunderbird DNA. Look in Southwest ruins and caves perhaps?

 

[Amapola]

Even if this bird actually existed, and even if you could bring it back, the environment has changed so drastically that it could not survive in the wild.

 

[jasonpatterson]

Serious question: What makes you think that the Thunderbird is anything other than a myth? I'm not aware of any fossil/preserved evidence, and a 20' bird would have been collected at death by natives, at the very least. We've got some folklore and some highly unlikely modern stories. I'd believe in bigfoot first, honestly, and that's saying something.

 

[leonAzul]

[OT]
Yet it seems that there is still more Thunderbird to drink.

Just saying…
[/OT]

The Thunderbird is a symbol, not a factual species. Consult the source of the word and learn for yourself.

This is how superstition is spawned. From an insightful metaphor that concretizes the not so visible forces of weather as a mythically enormous raptor, subsequent translations render it as a literal bird of prey, or even worse, a god.

Properly qualifying its reality goes a long way to properly quantifying its value

 

[Marduk]

Serious question: What makes you think that the Thunderbird is anything other than a myth? I'm not aware of any fossil/preserved evidence, and a 20' bird would have been collected at death by natives, at the very least. We've got some folklore and some highly unlikely modern stories. I'd believe in bigfoot first, honestly, and that's saying something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teratornis

Teratornis merriami (Merriam's Teratorn) was a huge North American teratorn, with a wingspan of around 3.5 to 3.8 meters (11 to 12 feet) and a wing area of 17.5 square meters, standing an estimated 75 cm tall and weighing about 15 kg. It was somewhat larger than the extant Andean Condor and nearly two times as heavy as the California Condor.

The species probably became extinct as the climatic shifts at the end of the last ice age led to widespread ecological alterations and prey scarcity, exacerbated by human hunting and increasing influence on habitat

Right place
Right time
Right size

The Thunderbird is a symbol, not a factual species. Consult the source of the word and learn for yourself.

from the wiki link

The Thunderbird mythology parallels tales of the Roc from around the Indian Ocean; as the roc, it is generally assumed to be based on real (though mythically exaggerated) species of birds, specifically the Bald Eagle, which is very common on the Northwest Coast.

I think the possibility that this myth is based on the Teratorn is much more likely than the possibility that its based on the Bald Eagle, the thunderbird is a foundation level myth, which was present with the earliest NA immigrants as was the Teratorn which didn't become extinct til a few hundred years later, that the animal it is based on no longer exists just adds to the ability for myths to form around it, vs the bald eagle which is still around, and patently not capable of causing thunder with its wings or lifting a whale from the ocean with its talons.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

Beyond hunting them for really great bbq wings, why the heck would we want to?

"Here you go Native American chum, we recreated your Thunderbird!"

"Jesus, it's eating our goats! Bring me my shotgun, woman! Damn white men!"

 

[rwguinn]

"Father, what is the reason for thunder?"
"My son, it is the great thunderbird flapping his wings"
"what is the lightning, then, father?"
"Thundebird got caught in high-tension wires"
Apologies to TK Ryan

 

[shemp]

I don't get it. Thunderbird isn't extinct. There's plenty at the local liquor store.

 

[bit_pattern]

Wouldn't you need some "thunderbird" DNA first?

 

[Marduk]

Wouldn't you need some "thunderbird" DNA first?

Theres over a hundred skeletal specimens of Teratornis merriami known from the Le Brea tar pits

 

[neutrino_cannon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teratornis




Right place
Right time
Right size

In my experience, wiki is a relatively poor source of information on paleontology, but let's just assume that they're right about the latest examples making it to the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary. That places the last of the teratorns as roughly contemporaneous with the very first humans in the New World.

And you're telling me that between then and now, the memory of these creatures has been kept more or less intact over twelve thousand years of oral tradition? Did you know that archaeologists were shocked when they couldn't find any evidence of the Biblical exodus out of Egypt? Why would Native American oral traditions be so much more reliable than Israelite oral traditions less than a quarter as old?

Sure, it's tempting to believe that the legends of a great whopping huge bird correspond to the actual great whopping huge bird that was living in the area, but this seems like something that could just as easily be coincidental. Are there any Native American traditions of creatures resembling camels? What about traditions of creatures resembling mastodons; I would think those would have been eye-catching. Ground sloths? Glyptodonts?

As for the original question; no. A complete genome might be recoverable in composite from the remains at La Brea, but how does that help? With modern technology that doesn't really do much.

 

[Cainkane1]

This is what I'm talking about. Scientists say that they believe the giant condor was the basis of the Thunderbird myth. I've seen a skeleton of this creature and if it could be brought back it would be great. It wasn't a predator it was a scavenger and it would be no problem feeding the big bird.

 

[Cainkane1]

Whale was a monster, killing other whales and depriving the quileute tribe of meat and oil. Thunderbird, a benevolent supernatural being, saw from its home high in the mountains that the people were starving. It soared out over the coastal waters, then plunged into the ocean and seized Whale. A struggle ensued; the ocean receded and rose again. Many canoes were flung into trees and many people were killed. Thunderbird eventually succeeded in lifting Whale out of the ocean, carrying it high into the air and then dropping it. Then another great battle occurred on land.



In one of many variant versions of the myth, the sound of the whale dropping into the sea is the source of thunder. A young boy of a Vancouver Island people, the Comox, was fascinated by the sound of thunder, and heard it from behind a point of land. He crossed that point, following the sound of thunder, and discovered the spectacle of the Thunderbird seizing and dropping the whale. The Thunderbird saw the boy, and told him that the story was now his, and he had the right to wear the Thunderbird mask and wings at the potlatch.

In another variant, the flapping of the Thunderbird's wings is the source of the thunder.

I got this Indian legend from wikipedia. I believe this legend is based on a giant condor struggling with a beached whale. Condors are known to try to eat a wounded animal as well as a dead animal.

 

[McHrozni]

All the Thunderbird was was a giant condor. Condors aren't extinct so why couldn't DNA from the extinct bird be mixed with the DNA of a living Condor?

In theory yes, if you had a preserved sample of Thunderbird DNA. I have to stress the DNA would have to be well preserved indeed, with little or no degradation, which normally occurs almost immediately after death. A deeply frozen bird might do the trick, but there is absolutely no guarantee. Modern DNA freezers hold the temperature at -72°C (-98F), the samples are frozen almost instantly and eukaryote DNA may still end up degraded.

McHrozni

 

[Cainkane1]

In theory yes, if you had a preserved sample of Thunderbird DNA. I have to stress the DNA would have to be well preserved indeed, with little or no degradation, which normally occurs almost immediately after death. A deeply frozen bird might do the trick, but there is absolutely no guarantee. Modern DNA freezers hold the temperature at -72°C (-98F), the samples are frozen almost instantly and eukaryote DNA may still end up degraded.

McHrozni

In others words we're out of luck.

 

[Dragonrock]

I seem to recall that the modern condors are at the limit of the size of bird that can fly using the common configuration. Larger wings would need bones stronger than the mostly hollow type birds have which would make them too heavy to fly. I suspect that the claims of 20' wingspan is just common human penchant for exaggeration.

 

[Marduk]

In my experience, wiki is a relatively poor source of information on paleontology,

I use wiki because its easily available, if you'd like me to use peer reviewed scientific papers to back up what I'm saying, thats fine, just ask.

but let's just assume that they're right about the latest examples making it to the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary. That places the last of the teratorns as roughly contemporaneous with the very first humans in the New World.

1. The first americans arrived between 16,000 and 13,000 years ago, thats between 6000 and 3000 years for the mythology to take hold before Teratorns became extinct

And you're telling me that between then and now, the memory of these creatures has been kept more or less intact over twelve thousand years of oral tradition?

Yes astounding isn't it, the Australian Aborigines have an oral tradition more than three times that length, I think theres something to be said of having a continuous native culture based on ancestral tradition in there somewhere. The thunderbird for instance appears in the foundation myths (creation stories) of several NA tribes, That is why it is so widespread.

Did you know that archaeologists were shocked when they couldn't find any evidence of the Biblical exodus out of Egypt?

1. How is archaeology related to oral traditions, surely that area is covered by anthopology ?
2. Thats because the Biblical Exodus is a fictional story from a religious book full of borrowed mythology, what did you expect, inerrancy ?
3. It isn't archaeologists who are shocked by a lack of exodus evidence, its religious fundementalists. Archaeologists base their opinions on evidence they have, not evidence that doesn't exist. That practice is actually a large part of the training

Why would Native American oral traditions be so much more reliable than Israelite oral traditions less than a quarter as old?

There is no such thing as an Israelite oral tradition, they were all literate cultures. The exodus story was clearly redacted. There isn't just a lack of supporting evidence, there is also an overwhelming amount of contradictory evidence as well.

Sure, it's tempting to believe that the legends of a great whopping huge bird correspond to the actual great whopping huge bird that was living in the area, but this seems like something that could just as easily be coincidental.

Legends don't work that way, they work like this
1st generation : large bird
22nd generation : large magical bird
33rd generation : large magical bird which causes thunder
44th generation : large magical bird which causes thunder and rain
55th generation : large magical bird which causes thunder and rain and lightning
66th generation : large magical bird which causes thunder and rain and attacks whales
77th generation : large magical bird which causes thunder and rain and can lift whales that it has attacked out of the ocean with its mighty talons and creates mountains by throwing whale hard at the ground,
etc etc etc

But the one thing that can't be an added fabricated detail there is "large bird" there in the origin, which the mythology was "based on"

Are there any Native American traditions of creatures resembling camels?

I can't find any, you ?

What about traditions of creatures resembling mastodons;

I can't find any, you ?

I would think those would have been eye-catching. Ground sloths?

I dare you to google "Mapinguari"

Glyptodonts?
?

Yes, apparently its was mythologised by south american folklore !

As for the original question; no. A complete genome might be recoverable in composite from the remains at La Brea, but how does that help? With modern technology that doesn't really do much.

I think a better question would be, why would anyone want to recreate a thunderbird, doesn't the U.S. have enough weather problems already ?

 

[Marduk]

I seem to recall that the modern condors are at the limit of the size of bird that can fly using the common configuration. Larger wings would need bones stronger than the mostly hollow type birds have which would make them too heavy to fly. I suspect that the claims of 20' wingspan is just common human penchant for exaggeration.

with respect, Jasonpatterson introduced the 20' claim in the 4th post of this thread
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6051985#post6051985
I have no idea where he got the figure from
anyone ?

 

[Dragonrock]

with respect, Jasonpatterson introduced the 20' claim in the 4th post of this thread
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6051985#post6051985
I have no idea where he got the figure from
anyone ?

I understand, I was just pointing out that we pretty much know what the max is and we're already there. No larger condor of prehistory is possible or even needed to explain the legend of the thunderbird.