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Could T Rex skeletons have their arms put on backwards?

Convergent evolution.

It's the lack of that massive breast-bone, or even any vestiges of it, that make me sceptical of this idea. ....

Not the vestiges, but the predecessor, back between the legs. If that ain't a breast bone I've never eaten at the Colonel's.

Interesting that is not there as an attachment point for the arms/wings. It must be there as a fulcrum for the tail. Note also another bone behind it. Must have taken some heavy duty tail wagging to balance those 'wimpy' arms- or what work they did.
 
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Convergent evolution.

It's the lack of that massive breast-bone, or even any vestiges of it, that make me sceptical of this idea. But let's wait for an expert, shall we? Anyone heard from Dinwar lately?

Tyrannosaurs did have a sternum, however. It wasn’t an overly large sternum, but it did have a sternum. I don’t see how the sternum could be vestigial (i.e., without significant function). It is used in breathing as well as flight. You are probably talking about the absence of a keel rather than a sternum. I agree that the absence of a keel probably says that flight had faded away in the Tyrannosaur ancestor. Or maybe the ancestors of the Tyrannosaur didn’t fly at all. However, I am sure that the Tyrannosaur had to breath when running after pray.

The Tyrannosaur had no keel. However, it did have a sternum to which some ribs were attached. The arms were also attached to the sternum. So I conjecture that the sternum was mostly used for breathing. The arms may have also been used in breathing. Maybe the fused clavicle and forearm bones were used in pneumatic respiration.

I am not a professional biologist. I have not examined the issue of the small forearms closely. However, I have been reading about the pneumatic bones of arcosaurs. I know that the humerus of birds and some dinosaurs are hollow. So I conjecture that the forearms could be doing something for respiration.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/birdmm.html
‘Bird bones are hollow and filled with extensions of the body's air sacs, which are extensions of the lungs that allow for increased respiratory efficiency. ‘

Many birds that don’t fly have a very small sternum and no keel. The keel is obviously necessary for flight.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/birdmm.html
‘As birds go, the domestic chicken is hardly built for high-performance flight. Yet even in the chicken skeleton shown here, many of the flight adaptations found in most birds can easily be seen. The sternum, or breastbone, bears a prominent keel where the flight muscles attach. (Note that Archaeopt eryx and several other early fossil birds lacked this sternal keel, and the flightless ratite birds -- such as the ostrich, emu, and rhea -- also lack the keel.)’

http://www.life.illinois.edu/ib/461/Internal_Anatomy.pdf
‘Air sacs also help to dissipate heat, as air passing through the air sacs absorbs heat and is then expelled from the body. Birds also lack a diaphragm thus breathing is thus powered by the intercostal muscles.’


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercostal_muscle
‘Intercostal muscles are several groups of muscles that run between the ribs, and help form and move the chest wall. The intercostal muscles are mainly involved in the mechanical aspect of breathing. These muscles help expand and shrink the size of the chest cavity to facilitate breathing.’

I think the theropods had hollow bones in their forearms. Furthermore, the ribs and sternum were important for breathing. So maybe the question has to do with pneumatic breathing.

So it seems to me that even if pneumatic bones lost their original grasping function, or their original flying function, they would still retain some use in respiration.
 
I am not an expert and would certainly value more opinions from more experts. But it does seem to me that the people who have recreated the skeleton of T. rex had substantial reasons to orient the arms as shown (some reasons were mentioned above and I am certain there are details in the skeleton as to muscle attachments, etc. Also look at how the claws curve on T. rex.).

I also point out that if one looks at the range of arm movement available to us humans, there are more positions for our own arms that would be legitimate reconstructions in addition to the traditional arms at our sides often used in anatomical recreations (e.g. arms up in the air, arms behind our rear, and everything in between). I presume that T. rex also had a range of movement, and within that range a given reconstruction is an arbitrary choice.
 
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Tyrannosaurs did have a sternum, however. It wasn’t an overly large sternum, but it did have a sternum. I don’t see how the sternum could be vestigial (i.e., without significant function). It is used in breathing as well as flight. You are probably talking about the absence of a keel rather than a sternum. I agree that the absence of a keel probably says that flight had faded away in the Tyrannosaur ancestor. Or maybe the ancestors of the Tyrannosaur didn’t fly at all. However, I am sure that the Tyrannosaur had to breath when running after pray.

The Tyrannosaur had no keel. However, it did have a sternum to which some ribs were attached. The arms were also attached to the sternum. So I conjecture that the sternum was mostly used for breathing. The arms may have also been used in breathing. Maybe the fused clavicle and forearm bones were used in pneumatic respiration.

I am not a professional biologist. I have not examined the issue of the small forearms closely. However, I have been reading about the pneumatic bones of arcosaurs. I know that the humerus of birds and some dinosaurs are hollow. So I conjecture that the forearms could be doing something for respiration.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/birdmm.html
‘Bird bones are hollow and filled with extensions of the body's air sacs, which are extensions of the lungs that allow for increased respiratory efficiency. ‘

Many birds that don’t fly have a very small sternum and no keel. The keel is obviously necessary for flight.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/birdmm.html
‘As birds go, the domestic chicken is hardly built for high-performance flight. Yet even in the chicken skeleton shown here, many of the flight adaptations found in most birds can easily be seen. The sternum, or breastbone, bears a prominent keel where the flight muscles attach. (Note that Archaeopt eryx and several other early fossil birds lacked this sternal keel, and the flightless ratite birds -- such as the ostrich, emu, and rhea -- also lack the keel.)’

http://www.life.illinois.edu/ib/461/Internal_Anatomy.pdf
‘Air sacs also help to dissipate heat, as air passing through the air sacs absorbs heat and is then expelled from the body. Birds also lack a diaphragm thus breathing is thus powered by the intercostal muscles.’


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercostal_muscle
‘Intercostal muscles are several groups of muscles that run between the ribs, and help form and move the chest wall. The intercostal muscles are mainly involved in the mechanical aspect of breathing. These muscles help expand and shrink the size of the chest cavity to facilitate breathing.’

I think the theropods had hollow bones in their forearms. Furthermore, the ribs and sternum were important for breathing. So maybe the question has to do with pneumatic breathing.

So it seems to me that even if pneumatic bones lost their original grasping function, or their original flying function, they would still retain some use in respiration.



YAYYYYY! He heard us calling!!!!

So is this a yes or a no?
 
YAYYYYY! He heard us calling!!!!

So is this a yes or a no?

Actually, this is a recommended direction for further research. I didn't commit to 'yes' or 'no'. I am not sure.

You suggested that the arm was tilted more in the dorsal direction than the arm is presented now. You discussed the possibility in terms of grasping or flying. You listed only grasping and flight as possible functions for the arms. You used the chicken as an example of a similar animal that can't fly.

Perhaps we should also be looking at the role the skeleton plays in respiration. The forearms could have been rotated by natural selection to optimize the use of their lungs.

Maybe the forearm of Tyrannosaurus didn't move at all. Instead, opposing muscles in the forearm kept the arm still while the tension went up. The effect would be to apply pressure to the lungs. Maybe the same applies to the chicken.

Hey, I am only returning a conjecture with a conjecture. You conjectured that the position of the forearm generally shown is wrong. I conjectured that the functions of the forearm that are generally assumed are wrong. Maybe scientists and artists are misinterpreting the position of the forearm because they don't understand the real function of the forearm.

Many scientists say that the wings developed in bird ancestors for aerodynamic powered climbing. Juvenile theropods may have climbed trees using their feathered forearms to provide lift. Now, this does not seem plausible in the juvenile T. rex because the arms are so small. Even a juvenile T. rex would have had arms disproportionately small. So placing the arms on the dorsal side of the body, like birds, would not have been very useful.

Respiration may have been a different story. An analogy with humans may be helpful. Human weightlifters time their breathing with their arm motions. The fused clavicle (wishbone) and the scapula are attached to the rib cage. So maybe the arm motions helped respiration. Maybe they help respiration more efficiently on the dorsal side.

Chickens do fly, but not very far. Maybe that is why the wings are folded this way. However, they have pneumatic bones and a specialized lung just like all birds.

Respiration in the pneumatic skeletal system was first shown in a chicken. Some one cut open the wing, exposing the hollow humerus to air. Then the tracheal airway was choked off. The poor chicken lived for a while. It breathed through the open humerus.

Now there is an interesting idea. Maybe the humerus of the T. rex was open sometimes? They breathed through their funny bone. T. rex hurt only when it laughed :)
 
We jokingly call our chickens "henosaurus rex" but make sure we never let them taste human blood. :eek: I have no doubt if I died in the henyard they'd have my bones picked clean before I was found.
 
No wonder Tommy Smothers was afraid of his brother's chicken. A 40 pound killer Henosaurus Rex. I think it was bred form the Rhode Island Rex line.
 
Actually, this is a recommended direction for further research. I didn't commit to 'yes' or 'no'. I am not sure.

You suggested that the arm was tilted more in the dorsal direction than the arm is presented now. You discussed the possibility in terms of grasping or flying. You listed only grasping and flight as possible functions for the arms. You used the chicken as an example of a similar animal that can't fly.

Perhaps we should also be looking at the role the skeleton plays in respiration. The forearms could have been rotated by natural selection to optimize the use of their lungs.

Maybe the forearm of Tyrannosaurus didn't move at all. Instead, opposing muscles in the forearm kept the arm still while the tension went up. The effect would be to apply pressure to the lungs. Maybe the same applies to the chicken.

Hey, I am only returning a conjecture with a conjecture. You conjectured that the position of the forearm generally shown is wrong. I conjectured that the functions of the forearm that are generally assumed are wrong. Maybe scientists and artists are misinterpreting the position of the forearm because they don't understand the real function of the forearm.

Many scientists say that the wings developed in bird ancestors for aerodynamic powered climbing. Juvenile theropods may have climbed trees using their feathered forearms to provide lift. Now, this does not seem plausible in the juvenile T. rex because the arms are so small. Even a juvenile T. rex would have had arms disproportionately small. So placing the arms on the dorsal side of the body, like birds, would not have been very useful.

Respiration may have been a different story. An analogy with humans may be helpful. Human weightlifters time their breathing with their arm motions. The fused clavicle (wishbone) and the scapula are attached to the rib cage. So maybe the arm motions helped respiration. Maybe they help respiration more efficiently on the dorsal side.

Chickens do fly, but not very far. Maybe that is why the wings are folded this way. However, they have pneumatic bones and a specialized lung just like all birds.

Respiration in the pneumatic skeletal system was first shown in a chicken. Some one cut open the wing, exposing the hollow humerus to air. Then the tracheal airway was choked off. The poor chicken lived for a while. It breathed through the open humerus.

Now there is an interesting idea. Maybe the humerus of the T. rex was open sometimes? They breathed through their funny bone. T. rex hurt only when it laughed :)



I think your idea is very interesting. Maybe even in repositioning the bone it could shift the "arm" to a "wing/pumping appendage."

The question I'm asking though is "Is it possible to put the skeleton together with the bones in a different position, or is there something about the joints that indicate it's not possible?"
 
No wonder Tommy Smothers was afraid of his brother's chicken. A 40 pound killer Henosaurus Rex. I think it was bred form the Rhode Island Rex line.

When I was four we had a tom turkey that was the king of the yard. Being 1955 in rural Missouri the "facilities" were well away from the house, and having a wee was a challenge with that mad bastard looking for intruders in "his" space. My brother and I devised a distraction program, one of us would run out the back door and around the house. The bird would follow and the other kid would dash for the loo. The decoy usually made it to the front porch in time to avoid The Revenge of the Pâte.
 
We jokingly call our chickens "henosaurus rex" but make sure we never let them taste human blood. :eek: I have no doubt if I died in the henyard they'd have my bones picked clean before I was found.
:D Yeah, we had some pretty mean chickens too. I remember one once had a 3 or 4 foot snake caught killed and slowly eaten. The snake was too big to swallow, and chickens cant really chew off pieces, so the chicken after pecking and shaking the snake until all the bones broken ran around with part digesting in it's craw and the rest hanging out. It took 2 days to finally swallow and digest the whole snake. The chicken of course had all the hundreds of other chickens chasing it around trying to steal the exposed tail the whole 2 days!:D Mice too they managed to swallow whole! ..after pecking and shaking them till they were a bag of mouse mush. And that's swallowing whole, they will eat bigger things too but by pecking and pecking until it rots a bit and they can peck off semi rotten pieces (and any flies that are careless enough to land). Apparently chickens have more than just a little of their dinosaur ancestors still in them.;)
 
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it's occurred to me that the way a chicken's wings sit are basically upside down compared to a T Rex.
This needs some explanation. "Upside down" (in your post) is not the same as "backwards" (in the title), and I can't imagine how tyrannosaur arms could be described as either one. (Certainly being both is impossible.)

Anyone heard from Dinwar lately?
YAYYYYY! He heard us calling!!!!
Darwin123 ≠ Dinwar
 
This needs some explanation. "Upside down" (in your post) is not the same as "backwards" (in the title), and I can't imagine how tyrannosaur arms could be described as either one. (Certainly being both is impossible.)

Darwin123 ≠ Dinwar



Oh shoot good to know. I mean that the arms should be situated like chicken wings, (upside down? backwards???) That's why I posted the pictures of both.

In other words did we just automatically assume they were armlike appendages because we visualized them as dragons or monsters, when in fact they are more like giant birds.
 
Oh shoot good to know. I mean that the arms should be situated like chicken wings, (upside down? backwards???) That's why I posted the pictures of both.

In other words did we just automatically assume they were armlike appendages because we visualized them as dragons or monsters, when in fact they are more like giant birds.

The arms and wings are not "backwards" of one another in any way. The basic biomechanics of vertebrates is consistent. The natural resting posture of a bird wing is this: plant your arm at your side, elbow pointing to waist. Bend your elbow tightly as you can and bend your wrist as if trying to touch your hip with your fingertips. The Rex's humerus is hung from the shoulder blade the same as yours and the chickens', with shoulder rotation range of motion as appropriate to the species' needs.
 
The arms and wings are not "backwards" of one another in any way. The basic biomechanics of vertebrates is consistent. The natural resting posture of a bird wing is this: plant your arm at your side, elbow pointing to waist. Bend your elbow tightly as you can and bend your wrist as if trying to touch your hip with your fingertips. The Rex's humerus is hung from the shoulder blade the same as yours and the chickens', with shoulder rotation range of motion as appropriate to the species' needs.

But since we still don't really know what they needed them for....there is the question!
 
True, but they're still hanging from the shoulder joint in a manner consistent with basic vertebrate morphology.
 
Hmm I guess I'm not understanding or explaining myself well. Is it physically possible for the bone to sit in the socket twisted the other way around like little wings.

Could the Trex look more like the picture of the chicken rather than the dangling appendages in standard pictures. The hanging arms just always look weird to me. But if it is possible it could have sat more like a wing does, (not saying it was a wing) then maybe the claws jutted out to protect his neck or as Dinwar said served a different purpose.

It just seems to me that they are out of place as they are positioned now.
 
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