Could somebody give me evidence that friction causes molten metal?

[I less than three logic]

another goalpost move

"can friction melt metal" becomes "can friction melt steel" becomes this, lol

Maybe we can get him to design a sports stadium. Imagine how much better a game would be without those boring, stationary goals.

 

[Anti-sophist]

Things we've established:

1) Friction can melt metal
2) Friction can melt steel (see #1)
3) There was evidence of molten metal at the WTC rubble pile.
4) There was, however, no evidence of molten steel.
5) Fires were hot enough to melt aluminum, without the help of friction.

 

[I less than three logic]

Things we've established:

1) Friction can melt metal
2) Friction can melt steel (see #1)
3) There was evidence of molten metal at the WTC rubble pile.
4) There was, however, no evidence of molten steel.
5) Fires were hot enough to melt aluminum, without the help of friction.

Well in that case, I claim the molten metal was actually mercury. I think they were, um, doing experiments to see if drinking tea helps the body expel mercury.

 

[RenaissanceBiker]

crankshafts are not lumps of steel falling, apples and oranges

I didn't say they were. You asked for evidence of that friction could melt metal in general then steel in particular. I provided that evidence in a manner I thought you could understand. I'm an engineer. That's what I do. I don't know anything about your ground zero molten steel claims other than you feel it somehow supports a 9/11 conspiracy theory. I'll try to help you understand science, but I won't participate in your delusions.

 

[rwguinn]

I didn't say they were. You asked for evidence of that friction could melt metal in general then steel in particular. I provided that evidence in a manner I thought you could understand. I'm an engineer. That's what I do. I don't know anything about your ground zero molten steel claims other than you feel it somehow supports a 9/11 conspiracy theory. I'll try to help you understand science, but I won't participate in your delusions.

I'm an engineer, Jim--not a mind reader!
(otherwise, I'd apply for and win the $1 million...)

 

[Gravy]

Seriously, though, how cute are little furry mammals?

 

[delphi_ote]

Things we've established:

1) Friction can melt metal
2) Friction can melt steel (see #1)
3) There was evidence of molten metal at the WTC rubble pile.
4) There was, however, no evidence of molten steel.
5) Fires were hot enough to melt aluminum, without the help of friction.

6) The claim that anyone on debunking911 stated that friction from the collapse of the WTC caused steel to melt remains totally unsubstantiated.

 

[stateofgrace]

I didn't say they were. You asked for evidence of that friction could melt metal in general then steel in particular. I provided that evidence in a manner I thought you could understand. I'm an engineer. That's what I do. I don't know anything about your ground zero molten steel claims other than you feel it somehow supports a 9/11 conspiracy theory. I'll try to help you understand science, but I won't participate in your delusions.

That's the thing that gets me also. If there was motel metal, or importantly molten steel found in the clean up operation at GZ, how does it contribute to the belief that explosives were used?

Incendiary devices don't burn for weeks and weeks and neither does bog standard explosives. Is the suggestion that this molten metal was formed during the collapse and not as a result of? And that it stayed molten for weeks and weeks by some as yet unknown catalyst?

I don't get it.

 

[delphi_ote]

That's the thing that gets me also. If there was motel metal, or importantly molten steel found in the clean up operation at GZ, how does it contribute to the belief that explosives were used?

Incendiary devices don't burn for weeks and weeks and neither does bog standard explosives. Is the suggestion that this molten metal was formed during the collapse and not as a result of? And that it stayed molten for weeks and weeks by some as yet unknown catalyst?

I don't get it.

Creationist fallacy number 1: your hypothesis is false, therefore my hypothesis is true.

 

[Kopji]

Steel. Melted by hand induced friction.

http://www.chlt.org/sandbox/lhl/Hooke1745/page.5.php

IN the common Way of striking Fire with a Flint and Steel, fiery Sparks fly out at every Blow which Sparks are nothing more than small Pieces of the Flint or Steel, (but usually of the Steel) broken off by the Violence of the Stroke, and either melted instantaneously into Steel Globules, or made at least red-hot, and thereby capable of kind- ling Tinder or Touch-wood. The Heat is likewise so intense sometimes as even to vitrify the broken Particles.

As a Proof of this, Dr. HOOKE struck Fire over a Sheet of very white Paper, and ob- serving diligently where the Sparks seemed to vanish, he discovered there certain very small, black, but glittering and moveable Specks, which, when examined with his Mi- croscope, appeared to be little round Globules ; some whereof did, from their Surface, yield a very bright and strong Reflection on that Side next the Light, and resembled Iron- Balls. One of which, whose Surface was pretty regular, is shewn by the Letter A.

Cultural Heritage Language Technologies: A Collaborative Project to Create Computational Tools For The Study of Ancient Greek, Early Modern Latin, and Old Norse In A Network of Affiliated Digital Libraries. See the Results of our work or read about them in the May 2005 issue of D-Lib or our CHLT Final Report.

 

[BubbleGum]

Answer is yes.

Google 'friction welding'.

~Bub

 

[BubbleGum]

Hey, I can post.

Hi All



This sight has a good explanation of how steel can and is routinely made molten by friction. >ardindustries.com


~Bub

 

[Kevin Levites]

Molten metal?

I keep hearing that the molten metal at wtc was caused by friction.

I have never heard of this phenomenon and if true would be very interested to see the proof of this.

This is a genuine request for info.

The metal heat shield on any number of spacecraft melts off and vaporizes from air friction upon re-entry into Earth's atmosphere.

Metal will often melt in certain kinds of brake parts with racecars, or 18 wheelers that are improperly maintained.

It's been said that you can melt a nail be securing it in a drill (in place of the drill bit) and drilling it into metal, but this is hearsay.

I hope this helps you.

Best,

---Kevin

 

[Regnad Kcin]

one thing that always bothered me about that was that it was excelsior that was cataloging the gaseous anomolies, not enterprise

...i think i just reveled how big a nerd i really am...

I disagree.
Somebody hacked the buildings main computer and transfered all power from the structural integrity field causing a core breach.

A...concrete core breach?

 

[FramerDave]

i currently have 18 people on ignore

friction produces heat, i would like to see a circumstance where friction produced the 3000 degrees required to melt steel

First, steel melts at about 1350 C depending on the alloy. Are we talking stainless steel, high-carbon steel, what? Here's your circumstance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Columbia_disaster

To quote from the article: "As Columbia descended from space into the atmosphere, the heat produced by air molecules colliding with the Orbiter typically caused wing leading-edge temperatures to rise steadily, reaching an estimated 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit (1400 °C) during the next six minutes."

In case you can't quite grasp this, air molecules colliding with the Orbiter = friction. If you don't trust Wiki you can download the full official report here: http://www.space.com/columbiatragedy/

 

[William Rea]

You are right, it is apples and oranges.

The steel at the bottom of the WTC was under a great deal more force, and absorbed a great deal more energy than a crank shaft in a car w/o oil.

The point is that the energy has to be available to do "useful work" so while there might have been a lot of energy in the fall its total conversion to heat is not guaranteed. I suspect that the energy conversion process from kinetic energy to heat energy via bending steel is very inefficient likewise any frictional interaction between the beams. It is possible however that an abrasive substance like concrete could facilitate the heat conversion process.

Anyone know?

 

[Dave_46]

<snip>
It's been said that you can melt a nail be securing it in a drill (in place of the drill bit) and drilling it into metal, but this is hearsay.

I hope this helps you.

Best,

---Kevin

I've melted the end of an HSS drill bit by trying to drill stainless steel with it.

Dave

 

[Anti-sophist]

The point is that the energy has to be available to do "useful work" so while there might have been a lot of energy in the fall its total conversion to heat is not guaranteed.

Ok, I'm going to think about this in more detail.

Are you saying that if I drop a golf ball into a sand trap, that not all of the gravitional energy is converted into heat? Some of it is used to do work on the earth?

That would mean, also, I am doing work on the earth, as well as the ball, when I lift the golfball out of the sand, then?

What happens, asymtotically, as I pick up and drop the golfball an infinite number of times to the trajectory of the earth? (Assuming it was traveling in a straight line, and not rotating). I presume it stays relatively straight... but does this mean if I lift the ball, and never drop it, I've deflected the earth's path?

 

[Beerina]

Although it is theoretically possible, I doubt that friction alone could cause molten metal, but high speed impacts, fires, and metal Oxidation reactions could, depending on the metals involved.
Friction can actually cause Aluminum and other reactive metals to Oxidize under the right conditions.

I saw a video of a manufacturing operation that welded two thick steel rods together, end-to-end, by twisting one and jamming them together hard.

I'd be more likely to believe melted metal was due to being at the core of a gigantic fire that lasted several months. There was still smoke coming out 2 months later. Heat will happily build up at the center of such a thing, well in excess of the "burn temperature" of the material.

 

[tsig]

life

no but i would have expected some large debris. have u seen the videos of the ironworkers at GZ? they keep saying how odd it is that they found nothing but tiny particles of things

What you expect and what you get are often very differint.

This is called life.