Ed Corona Virus Conspiracy Theories....

[MortFurd]

Since you brought up "flattening" of the curve... flattening of a curve extends the problem. Many thought we should be out of it by now but that became mathematically impossible due to flattening. You gain in one area at the expense of another.

If you don't "flatten the curve" you get situations like in Italy where the hospitals and doctors were overwhelmed. People died because there were too many sick people and not enough doctors and medical equipment.

Yes, flattening the curve prolongs the whole thing. The idea is to keep people from dying.

You lose in terms of "shorter event" but gain in terms of "more people live."

I think that's a pretty good trade.

 

[Aridas]

If you don't "flatten the curve" you get situations like in Italy where the hospitals and doctors were overwhelmed. People died because there were too many sick people and not enough doctors and medical equipment.

Yes, flattening the curve prolongs the whole thing. The idea is to keep people from dying.

You lose in terms of "shorter event" but gain in terms of "more people live."

I think that's a pretty good trade.

Even in terms of the economy, the long-term benefits of pointedly treating it as a health crisis and treating it appropriately in that light (preferably in the hammer and dance way, but simply flattening the curve helps too) tend to greatly outweigh the short term benefits that come from just letting it sweep though the population largely unchecked, with the resultant extra damage and death. To be perfectly clear about the obvious - both supply AND demand are required for a healthy economy. Given the nature of a pandemic and human nature, pandemics tend to significantly impact the demand side of things in a lot of ways, which in turn means that a lot less jobs are as supportable on the supply side, which then further exacerbates the problem. Stopgaps can be applied, but things won't become especially better until the health side of things is dealt with and the confidence of the population returns.

So really, it's not actually much of a trade off between the economy and lives. It's a trade off between short-term interests and long-term interests, with the note that greedy special interests have done a fair bit to make our economy dependent on short-term concerns and unsustainable strategies.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

"Viruses kill people" and "Viruses cause conditions that kill people" is a distinction without a difference. Juvenile sophistry, at best.

Agreed.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[No Other]

You picked one to be your definition, though. Did it cover all cases of death? Did you research that before making an assumption?

Yes, I am very familiar with this area of science and classification.

 

[No Other]

"Viruses kill people" and "Viruses cause conditions that kill people" is a distinction without a difference. Juvenile sophistry, at best.

I will address this another way...

The traffic signal goes out at 5pm at the busiest intersection in a large metropolis. While the signal was inoperable there were 3 accidents.

The broken traffic signal caused a condition for the accidents; yet the traffic signal did not hit any car.

 

[Pixel42]

I will address this another way...

The traffic signal goes out at 5pm at the busiest intersection in a large metropolis. While the signal was inoperable there were 3 accidents.

The broken traffic signal caused a condition for the accidents; yet the traffic signal did not hit any car.

Yet pretty much everyone would agree to the broken traffic light being described as the cause of the accidents.

What is the purpose of this pedantry? What are you trying to prove?

 

[No Other]

To poke only at this, just because - the recommendations for wearing face masks are about protecting OTHERS, not yourself. Cloth masks have a significant effect when it comes to helping to prevent an infected person from spreading the water droplet virus carriers, whether they're showing symptoms or not, and were largely pushed more heavily in the US after it was found that the infected people spread the virus before symptoms develop, much of the time. If everyone were to wear masks, in short, the spread should be dramatically reduced.

I agree with your scenario or at least the premise of why we are being told to wear them.

First, if a person is wearing an N95 it is a Respirator and not a face mask (I understand you are not making this claim). Yet this highlights one of the problems of conformity bias which is a driving force in this compliance. People are being bombarded with scattered information, conflicting information and ever changing information. In this panicked state people are grabbing anything and not doing proper due diligence on how to combat the virus. This is like diving into water without checking the depth.

Second, if a person needs to wear a mask due to an illness... stay home and don't put others at risk. There was a reported case where a driver blacked out driving a vehicle while wearing an N95. Why the driver wore one in a car would be interesting but the driver claims the face mask established a condition (hypercapnia?) for the accident. Lack of understanding creates problems.

Third, does the face mask completely stop the virus? It will stop some of the virus but certainly not all of them. Does wearing the face mask reduce the amount of virus leaving the person wearing one? Absolutely but it only reduces it and not eliminate it. So, if people know they are sick and still insist on leaving the home... then it is the infected that are playing Russian Roulette with OUR lives.

Fourth, there are plenty of test sites available for everyone to be tested, if they want to be tested. There is a ground swell of information being disseminated saying even though you tested negative for the Covid, it could be a false negative. This is creating fear, uncertainty and doubt in the public. It becomes a "no win" situation.

Fifth, quarantine is restricting the movement of sick individuals, what do you call it when you restrict the movement of healthy people?

Final... How many people on this thread have been tested? If you tested negative, do you still wear a face mask? If yes... then why do you still wear it?

 

[No Other]

Yet pretty much everyone would agree to the broken traffic light being described as the cause of the accidents.

What is the purpose of this pedantry? What are you trying to prove?

The traffic light did not cause the accident. People were not being careful when faced with the problem just like a multiple car rear end collision(s). If 10 cars are involved in a chain of rear end accidents... each driver behind the initial car will be charged a violation of hitting the car in front of them.

These are not minor or insignificant details that I highlight. Many people are willing to accept "expert" information (without further reading) from someone who has a series of initials after their name, a personality on TV, a politician, etc. This entire situation with Covid is new I get that but the language that our "authorities" are providing is laced with: maybe, should, probably, might have, can... along many other superlatives that are only qualitative with speculative verbiage... yet the rules that are being rolled out are absolutes without any sunset clause or future measurement that shows improvement or degradation. The lack of SOPs is alarming by itself. Remember when Gov. Cuomo was screaming for more ventilators because it will save thousands of lives? Bloomberg had an April 22, 2020 pointing out 9 out of 10 people who were ventilated died.

There is absolutely no way we can determine if social distancing works, there is only speculation and why 6 feet? Conflicting information is abound as some say it should be 10, 15 or 20 feet to be effective. People are believing and applying what they want. Last night I saw a Police Chief speak at teleconference and he was not wearing a mask but the 8 city council people behind him were wearing one, this is just grandstanding. Why can you have only 6 people at a restaurant table in Chicago but you can have 8 in Fairhope, Alabama? I guess the Covid is more potent in Illinois than the South (this is where others can wise crack about the South and Alabama).

Too many convenient "rules" without a precedent. Thx

 

[Pixel42]

There's some genuine causes for concern there, but I'm still not seeing how quibbling about the exact wording of how Covid19 related deaths are described is helping.

 

[varwoche]

I agree with your scenario or at least the premise of why we are being told to wear them.

(1) First, if a person is wearing an N95 it is a Respirator and not a face mask (I understand you are not making this claim). Yet this highlights one of the problems of conformity bias which is a driving force in this compliance. People are being bombarded with scattered information, conflicting information and ever changing information. In this panicked state people are grabbing anything and not doing proper due diligence on how to combat the virus. This is like diving into water without checking the depth.

(2) Second, if a person needs to wear a mask due to an illness... stay home and don't put others at risk. There was a reported case where a driver blacked out driving a vehicle while wearing an N95. Why the driver wore one in a car would be interesting but the driver claims the face mask established a condition (hypercapnia?) for the accident. Lack of understanding creates problems.

(3) Third, does the face mask completely stop the virus? It will stop some of the virus but certainly not all of them. Does wearing the face mask reduce the amount of virus leaving the person wearing one? Absolutely but it only reduces it and not eliminate it. So, if people know they are sick and still insist on leaving the home... then it is the infected that are playing Russian Roulette with OUR lives.

(4) Fourth, there are plenty of test sites available for everyone to be tested, if they want to be tested. There is a ground swell of information being disseminated saying even though you tested negative for the Covid, it could be a false negative. This is creating fear, uncertainty and doubt in the public. It becomes a "no win" situation.

(5) Fifth, quarantine is restricting the movement of sick individuals, what do you call it when you restrict the movement of healthy people?

(6) Final... How many people on this thread have been tested? If you tested negative, do you still wear a face mask? If yes... then why do you still wear it?

(1) Trivial. It's true though, the public is misinformed due in large part to a certain Very Stable Genius. Especially the segment of the population comprising the cultists.

(2) A one-off incident that informs us of nothing in the grand scheme.

(3) A measure need not be perfect. If perfection is a requirement, good bye to pretty much all medicine.

(4) This in no way negates the value of masks, unless people are getting tested daily.

(5) Something that happens in a pandemic, especially when there are asymptomatic carriers.

(6) See #4.

 

[No Other]

(1) Trivial. It's true though, the public is misinformed due in large part to a certain Very Stable Genius. Especially the segment of the population comprising the cultists.

point taken but it still remains that terms are being thrown around compliments at a beauty pageant without knowing what they mean or the impact it will have on an individual.

(2) A one-off incident that informs us of nothing in the grand scheme.

True a one-off example does not constitute a generalization; I was only pointing this out as a contrast not a blanket cause for NOT wearing the N95.

(3) A measure need not be perfect. If perfection is a requirement, good bye to pretty much all medicine.

Nobody is asking for perfection, what needed to be in place was a process to deal with this situation like the one we are in. Fauci stated in 2017 that this Administration would face a pandemic and that we need to be prepared. The pandemic came and we were not prepared but I never saw a recommendation from Fauci on how to manage a situation. The burden was on Fauci to 1) inform the Administration and he did. 2) Provide a plan. If a plan was provided it was poorly developed or poorly implemented. We also need to see if we deviated away from the proposed plan to our detriment (assuming a plan was laid out).

(4) This in no way negates the value of masks, unless people are getting tested daily.

As I stated masks prevent portions of the virus escaping. Should healthy people or at least people who think they are healthy be ordered to wear a face mask?

(5) Something that happens in a pandemic, especially when there are asymptomatic carriers.

We have experienced other pandemics and never have we reacted like this. Comparing 1918 to 2020 is apples and oranges. Not one time in the history of the world have we quarantined or limited activity of healthy people due to a virus. I have experienced instances where I could not go outside due to crop dusting yet that quarantine/confinement/restricted movement was lifted after 48 hours... not indefinitely.

Have you been tested? Thx

 

[varwoche]

No I haven't been tested.

 

[No Other]

There's some genuine causes for concern there, but I'm still not seeing how quibbling about the exact wording of how Covid19 related deaths are described is helping.

Doctor Deborah Birx stated clearly that if a person died that tested positive for Covid-19 the death will be recorded as a death due to Covid-19 even if there were pre-existing conditions. The late great John Prine died during this Covid-19 outbreak. He battled cancer twice and was able to go on tour only to have his death be announced as a Covid-19 death. What is not widely publicized is that his wife who occupied the same environment as her husband was also positive with Covid-19 and she is fine. The difference is the comorbidity that John Prine had with cancer. The actual stand alone Covid-19 related deaths is infinitesimal compared to those with pre-existing conditions but all the numbers are rolled into "Covid-19" or least that is how the media portrays it. This does not diminish the impact and significance of any death related to Covid-19, what makes this an issue is that it unnecessarily produces fear in society.

 

[No Other]

Thanks again!

 

[Trebuchet]

Trump is now suggesting JAQing that China intentionally allowed the virus to spread to damage other economies. Moron.

 

[Axxman300]

The traffic light did not cause the accident. People were not being careful when faced with the problem just like a multiple car rear end collision(s). If 10 cars are involved in a chain of rear end accidents... each driver behind the initial car will be charged a violation of hitting the car in front of them.

Exactly the same as idiots who don't get vaccinated and ignore public health advisories and orders. Traffic Laws are Health Laws, each one exists because of a body count. You can't rear-end someone if you maintain two-car-lengths distance, and pay attention to road conditions. Cars must have airbags and seatbelts, and all occupants must belt up - just as citizens are asked mask up now.

Even with airbags and seat belts people still die, nothing is 100% in the real world. Just FEWER people die in accidents, and that is the victory.

 

[bknight]

"Viruses kill people" and "Viruses cause conditions that kill people" is a distinction without a difference. Juvenile sophistry, at best.

Exactly.

No Other do you know the definition of an internet troll?

Your posts smell an awfully lot like trollish writing, IMO.

 

[Aridas]

As before, I'm just going to poke at couple things.

Second, if a person needs to wear a mask due to an illness... stay home and don't put others at risk.

Of course. Again, though, the masks were and are being stressed because a person is frequently contagious before they have any indication that they're sick, and may well not ever have sufficient indication to know that they were sick.

Fourth, there are plenty of test sites available for everyone to be tested, if they want to be tested.

It's more complicated than that - including the fact that without notable basis and insurance, you can potentially be charged a notable amount of money to get tested. Going beyond that, testing capacity is NOT sufficient to test everyone right now, even if more can likely be handled than are currently being tested.

 

[No Other]

As before, I'm just going to poke at couple things.

Of course. Again, though, the masks were and are being stressed because a person is frequently contagious before they have any indication that they're sick, and may well not ever have sufficient indication to know that they were sick.

I do not wish to put words in your mouth so I am asking... "are you suggesting that unless we KNOW the person is Covid-19 free that we wear mask?"

It's more complicated than that - including the fact that without notable basis and insurance, you can potentially be charged a notable amount of money to get tested. Going beyond that, testing capacity is NOT sufficient to test everyone right now, even if more can likely be handled than are currently being tested.

I will modify my statement. Everyone that I know who went to get a test... was able to do so.

 

[No Other]

Exactly.

No Other do you know the definition of an internet troll?

Your posts smell an awfully lot like trollish writing, IMO.

I am not on this site 24/7 and I post when I think it is an interesting topic with a lot "chatter". I really thought this site was for Skeptics... and I am a Skeptic. What this has turned into is a site for smart little quips that want to stir up rhetoric while putting somebody down that disagrees with either their opinion or other opinions. Instead of having a dialog it turns into an attack on character while guessing the intention of one's post.

Yes, I know what trolling means and to infer that on one person... you better know that person or their habits. It could be that your sense of smell is not very good.

If you have issues with me or my posts, I am open for discussion but I am not tolerant of blanket indictments especially when they are incorrect. You may wish to understand my qualifications prior to making a claim.

If everyone on this thread agreed with each other... then only one person is needed. To attack because it is opposite of you or others is the ultimate of conformity bias.

Their are some people on this site that abhor a counter opinion and I can't do anything about that other than exclude myself. As Groucho Marks said when asked why he didn't challenge the Riviera Country Club of no Jewish members... "why would I want to be a part of a group that doesn't want me there?"