Merged Core-led collapse and explosive demolition

Bell,
Remember, what you see above the impact zone is equal or weaker than the structure below. The floor you are showing here is impacted only by the floors above. Those floors are not stronger. If there are 15 floor above, then at best, they would only crush 15 floor below. Nor are the columns above stronger than the columns below.
And, if the upper 15 floor did crush the lower 15 floors, it would have to slow down before it stopped at that 15th lower floor.
Actually what you see in the video footage is that the top part of the TTs collapse in to the lower floors before the lower floors start to disintegrate. So by the time the upper floors collapse, there is no power driver left to crush the rest of the building.

You continue to view the building as one massive object, instead of the thousands of parts it was made of. The upper 15 floors *did not* crush the lower 15 floors. It crushed the lower *1* floor. Then 16 floors crushed the next lower *1* floor etc.

Have you seen my post 39? I would like you to address this.
 
Honestly, I think a lot of it is that people who are just discovering the Twoof Movement for the first time have all the fervor of a religious zealot. They want to get out there and get the word out, convert the non-believers, and make a difference. Why they decide to do that here is beyond me, but it's kind of fun to apply a pin to the balloon of their misguided beliefs and watch them slowly deflate into "But it must be twoo, I read it on the Internet!"

I've posted elsewhere, and have seen opinions on and (I think) a scientific study or two regarding the psychology of Truthers. Part of it is that people want to be thought of as more important than they are, to be one of those names that is written in history books, and if there WERE some giant government conspiracy to perpetrate the events of 9/11 and a group of previously anonymous Internet users uncovered the evidence, they WOULD in fact become those names in history. It's a common human need, to receive recognition for your actions; it's just that most of the time, the only recognition you receive is within your immediate circle of friends, family, and co-workers. The rest of the world moves on comfortably unaware of your achievements and continues spinning whether you get recognized or not.

Another aspect of this is the notion that "I'm right and you're not" that many truthers seem to have, which is a fairly juvenile mindset to have that most people, as they grow older and mature, grow out of. This is why many in the "Truth Movement" are younger people, who already think that adults are stupid and that they, as the teenagers, actually know all there is to know. It allows them to feel as though they are elevated over their fellow man because they "know the truth" and everyone else is a "sheeple" or a "shill". It grants them a sense of superiority that they cannot otherwise get, because in reality they have a lot of hard life lessons left to learn, ones that the adults around them have already learned through experience. That's not to say that this particular mindset is limited to teenagers; one only has to look at the birthers to see that it can affect the elder generation as well; but in general it seems to fall in that area.

Lastly, a lot of truthers seem unable to understand the notion that small actions can have extremely far-reaching consequences; like a single assassination can be one of the final sparks that causes a world war (assassination of Kaiser Wilhelm prior to WWI) or, in the case of 9/11, that 19 men can hijack four planes and cause enough devastation to completely re-write how a country operates on a daily basis. One small rock, dropped into the exact center of a vast lake, will cause ripples that radiate all the way to the shores of the lake, although by the time they reach it they may be so small as to not be visible to the naked eye. Truthers would have us believe that the ripples couldn't have been caused by that tiny rock; it must have been something bigger.

This is, I believe, why Truthers cling so stubbornly to their opinions and ignore the facts; they don't want to let go of the notion that they might be more important than they in fact actually are, and want to receive the maximum accolades possible despite only offering at best their minimum effort. In addition, they need to cling to the belief that far-reaching consequences must, by definition, have elaborate causes, disregarding the fact that it only takes one small pebble in just the right place to start an avalanche that can cause devastating amounts of damage.

tntruther, thus far you have been a polite change to most of the truthers I've seen come and go on this forum, but it doesn't change the fact that your science and your "facts" (read: opinions) are wrong, and have been shown to be wrong, repeatedly, by many many MANY people, some of whom are on this very forum. Before posting again, do yourself a favor and actually READ some of the excellent research that is out there that stacks up the evidence solidly on the side of the "19 terrorists hijacked four planes and flew them into three buildings and a field on 9/11" theory, with all the resulting damage merely being consequences of those relatively simple actions. If, after doing so, you can provide us with evidence and not merely your unsupported assumptions, I will happily discuss the events of that day with you; until then, I'm afraid you're merely re-hashing long debunked twaddle that has absolutely no basis in science.
 
Bell,
Remember, what you see above the impact zone is equal or weaker than the structure below. The floor you are showing here is impacted only by the floors above. Those floors are not stronger. If there are 15 floor above, then at best, they would only crush 15 floor below. Nor are the columns above stronger than the columns below.
And, if the upper 15 floor did crush the lower 15 floors, it would have to slow down before it stopped at that 15th lower floor.
Actually what you see in the video footage is that the top part of the TTs collapse in to the lower floors before the lower floors start to disintegrate. So by the time the upper floors collapse, there is no power driver left to crush the rest of the building. .

Oh brother, that is a an excellent analysis but for the dissappearance of 30 floors worth of falling "material" and the force of gravity.

Verinage
 
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(1) The top part of both Twin towers were actually clocked at 2/3 free fall. (See Davis Chandler)
There is video evidence that explosions were racing down the face of the TTs almost as fast as some of the falling debris.
WTC7 reached free-fall for the first 100 feet. NIST has admitted this.

As I said, one of the buildings fell at close to free-fall for part of its collapse. 2/3 of freefall is not "near"; would you argue against a ticket for doing 100mph in a 70mph limit that you were going at near-speed-limit?

Oh, and your "explosions... racing down the face" are a few broken windows and some puffs of dust. They behave nothing like explosions.

And, of course, all this is irrelevant, because free-fall collapse is not a known feature of controlled demolitions, any more than any particular collapse rate is a known feature of progressive collapses.

(2) No hi-rise has ever collapsed symmetrically due to fire and some have burned much longer. On 911, 3 did.
And, there was melted steel, molten iron in the basements and iron microspheres in the dust.

No high-rise has ever burned for as long, over as large an area, with no firefighting, as any of these without collapsing. And, there are a few unreliable anecdotal accounts of molten metal, a small minority of which mention molten steel but all of which are dishonestly claimed to mention molten steel by truthers, but none of the subsequently solidified steel ever turned up. Truthers like to pretend a known lump of concrete is actually steel, but that's just more lies from the truth movement.

And the microspheres weren't iron. The contained iron, among several other constituents.

(3) No, but the concrete was. All of the floors and the steel decking was pulverized in to dust in mid air.

No, it wasn't. Large amounts of concrete was present as large chunks, as photographs of Ground Zero show. Steven Jones himself has admitted this one.

There was no large pile of floors at the bottom of the collapse.

Strangely enough, the floors didn't survive hitting the ground at 100mph without breaking up into chunks.

(4) 1700 Architects and Engineers have signed a petition calling for a new investigation.

Many of whome are neither architects nor engineers, and none of whom appear to be competent structural engineers. And their claims are nonsense.

((5) And explosives were found in the dust, even though NIST refused to test for them. "Military grade, state of the art, nano-thermite".

Nope. A group of truthers analysed some paint chips and fooled themselves into believing that the results showed the presence of nanothermite, even though they had to ignore the law of conservation of energy to reach that conclusion. Further studies of similar samples show no free aluminium present, proving that they cannot contain thermite.

A progressive collapse would have slowed, not accelerated.

Incorrect. You know nothing about progressive collapses. A progressive collapse would have either continued to accelerate, or terminated.

Bell,
Remember, what you see above the impact zone is equal or weaker than the structure below. The floor you are showing here is impacted only by the floors above. Those floors are not stronger. If there are 15 floor above, then at best, they would only crush 15 floor below.

And this shows just how profoundly you don't understand progressive collapse. It's laughably idiotic. Each floor, as it's crushed, is added to the falling mass. The ability of the falling mass to destroy the structure below increases, rather than decreases, as the collapse progresses.

And what do you say about the molten Iron and the iron microspheres?

Neither of them ever existed.

But this is all futile. Your mind is made up, and you won't even look at anything that doesn't support your beliefs. The sad thing is that you're convinced that you're the only one who sees the truth, when in fact you've swallowed a pernicious pack of lies peddled to you by a group of dishonest idealogues. The best you can hope for is not to feel too stupid when you realise how badly you've been fooled. And the irony is that you think everyone else has that problem.

There's little more to be gained by rehashing these ancient canards. Go to the sticky threads, read the material linked in the Gravysites thread, and then, if you honestly think you have anything new to say, come back and say it. In the meantime, there's no need to demonstrate to us how well you've memorised your catechism.

Dave
 
You're assuming that our latest poster is actually someone new.

Dave

and from my favorite quote
Posted by aaarrrggh
Please don't instantly assume everybody is out to lie to you. It's not very rational of you.
Posted by Dave Rogers
On the contrary, it's solidly based in experience. A great many posters have come here with a post that resembles your OP in every detail - the statement of support for the conventional narrative, the example of skeptical behaviour in an unrelated area, followed by the citation of an attempted rebuttal by truthers of a counter-argument to some fine detail of one of their theories, and the suggestion that that citation, far beyond demonstrating (or, more usually, failing to demonstrate) that some truther theory is stupid not in every conceivable way but rather in every way but one, somehow suggests that the conventional narrative of 9/11 has some shortcomings. The pattern is so familiar that it's known locally as "the mark of Woo", and is usually traced to a sockpuppet of a former member.

As further evidence emerges, I may find that this impression is wrong, in which case I'll be happy to revise my conclusions, but you should be aware that conspiracy theorists pretending not to be conspiracy theorists, for their first few posts anyway, are common enough on this forum to be considered a cliché.

Dave
 
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Bell,
Remember, what you see above the impact zone is equal or weaker than the structure below. The floor you are showing here is impacted only by the floors above. Those floors are not stronger. If there are 15 floor above, then at best, they would only crush 15 floor below. Nor are the columns above stronger than the columns below.
And, if the upper 15 floor did crush the lower 15 floors, it would have to slow down before it stopped at that 15th lower floor.
Actually what you see in the video footage is that the top part of the TTs collapse in to the lower floors before the lower floors start to disintegrate. So by the time the upper floors collapse, there is no power driver left to crush the rest of the building.

Every time the top 15 floors fail a floor it adds another floor of mass to the accelerating top.
15 floors crush one
16 floors crush one
17 floors crush one
18 floors crush one
19 floors crush one
20 floors crush one
21 floors crush one
22 floors crush one
23 floors crush one
24 floors crush one
and so on.

You are confusing an inelastic collision model of the conservation of momentum law within an isolated system with one that has an external force acting upon it. That force is gravity. Ignore gravity at your peril!
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~ssm/ASTR100/lecture7.pdf
Let us demonstrate
 
truthers actually put their own reputation and safety at risk for the betterment of society when they stand up to the government's official conspiracy theory of 911.
I'm a truther, but i'm not trying to exploit anyone. I just want to get to the truth about how those 3 buildings fell. And my major motivating factor is the tragic fate of the victims. So please, don't hate truthers for simply digging in toignoring the science for the sake of justice.their cult beliefs

ftfy
 
(1) The top part of both Twin towers were actually clocked at 2/3 free fall. (See Davis Chandler)

Which proves nothing


There is video evidence that explosions were racing down the face of the TTs almost as fast as some of the falling debris.

You area squibber? SeriouslY? Come back when you buy yourself a clue.

WTC7 reached free-fall for the first 100 feet. NIST has admitted this.

And free-fall speed means what?

(2) No hi-rise has ever collapsed symmetrically due to fire and some have burned much longer. On 911, 3 did.
And, there was melted steel, molten iron in the basements and iron microspheres in the dust.

None of the towers collapsed symmetrically so part 'A' is moot.
There was no molten steel or iron in the basements so part 'B' is moot
Iron microspheres have many origins so what is your point?

(3) No, but the concrete was. All of the floors and the steel decking was pulverized in to dust in mid air.
No it wasn't, and there are ample photos to prove your claim wrong.
There was no large pile of floors at the bottom of the collapse.
Since the floor slabs were not structural except for lateral support that is no surprise to anyone in the construction industry.

(4) 1700 Architects and Engineers have signed a petition calling for a new investigation.

Well, no actually only about 2-300 architects and about 400 engineers (and most not in the structural field) signed. The rest "worked in the industry"
So less than 1/2 of 1% of a profession signed......and you are impressed?

(5) And explosives were found in the dust, even though NIST refused to test for them. "Military grade, state of the art, nano-thermite".

Nope.....when will troofers stop the lies? :rolleyes:
 
Bell,
Remember, what you see above the impact zone is equal or weaker than the structure below. The floor you are showing here is impacted only by the floors above. Those floors are not stronger. If there are 15 floor above, then at best, they would only crush 15 floor below. Nor are the columns above stronger than the columns below.
And, if the upper 15 floor did crush the lower 15 floors, it would have to slow down before it stopped at that 15th lower floor.
Actually what you see in the video footage is that the top part of the TTs collapse in to the lower floors before the lower floors start to disintegrate. So by the time the upper floors collapse, there is no power driver left to crush the rest of the building.

And on that note, where is the pile of 110 floors that should be at the bottom of the pile.

And what do you say about the molten Iron and the iron microspheres?

And thank you for the respectful discussion.

You don't have a clue regarding building structures do you?
 
A progressive collapse would have slowed, not accelerated.

Not just a fallacious bare assertion, but also a claim ignorant of the construction of the building.

Read Bazant's works (plural) for the energy available in the collapse, do a forum lookup search for "momentum" and other key phrases for the concept you're trying to make a claim about.

Bottom line: No, you cannot make such a blanket judgement about collapses like you did. Until you understand the specifics of the Towers construction - specifically, the floor attachments to the columns, and the columns requirement of the floor connections to keep them from falling over - then you do not understand enough about how the towers were designed. That renders statements like the one you made moot, as it's a claim from a position of ignorance.

And yes, you can try the appeal to authority and attempt to claim that one of the AE911T signers knows what they're talking about. When you do that, be prepared to read the links we refer you to in order to demonstrate that no, they in fact do not know what they're talking about. Look up posts by Dave Rogers, Architect, and others (folks, feel free to specify the "others") to see what I'm talking about.
 
Truthers actually put their own reputation and safety at risk for the betterment of society when they stand up to the government's official conspiracy theory of 911.

Oh, you brave heroes! Reputations, sure... it's probably not comfortable to have everyone you know realize that you're a maroon.

Safety? Don't make me laugh! Please list the names and incidents of TM "members" (adherents) who've been killed, arrested, beaten, tortured, other... for their brave actions. This is a fantasy. Jones, Jones, Harrit, Gage, Griffin, Fetzer, Avery, Bermas, Ranke, Balsamo... All those brave soldiers for the cause. Are they rotting away in FEMA camps? Or are they slapping away on their keyboards dreaming up new ways to fleece the gullible out of a few more bucks for a seminar, DVD, book, t-shirt, other?
 
Strongly recommended reading:
 
How is a collapse that slows down "progressive"?

And all that floor crushing is well and good(I know actually it's horrible) but I feel like the walls peeling away don't get enough credit.
 
How is a collapse that slows down "progressive"?

And all that floor crushing is well and good(I know actually it's horrible) but I feel like the walls peeling away don't get enough credit.

I agree, but to be more specific, I personally would say that the perimeter columns peeling away aren't taken into account enough. Yet, a bare understanding (like mine; I'm far, far removed from the field and am the very epitome of a layman) is critical to understanding the collapse dynamics.
 
This memorial is dedicated to the many Truthers maimed in the spread of their knowledge. It shows an acne riddled teenager recoiling in pain from the recently microwaved Hot Pocket filling that spilled all over the hand he uses to copy and paste incorrect science and leading questions into forums that will soon ban him.
 
I agree, but to be more specific, I personally would say that the perimeter columns peeling away aren't taken into account enough. Yet, a bare understanding (like mine; I'm far, far removed from the field and am the very epitome of a layman) is critical to understanding the collapse dynamics.

I think the whole perimiter column issue is what Major_Tom and his ROOSD (I think he called it) theory covers, plus the remaining core that stood for a while, as opposed to the pure block Bazant theory, however the point still stands: nothing shows demoltion as a cause.
 

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