Merged Core-led collapse and explosive demolition

What makes you think explosives would be necessary or used in the first place?

After nine years, you still don't know the answer to this question? If you have no idea what 9/11 skeptics are saying, what are you doing here? Jibber jabbering?

Grab a clue. Carlhole's post addresses this question, but I have asked mods to move that discussion to a new or existing thread, as it is a more general, and separate topic from what is stated in my OP.
 
To pile up on the demolition of Carlhole's first and failed post, here some additional thoughts:

...
7. Ok, now let's add back in structural strength. How many MORE seconds of collapse time can be attributed to the resistance due to the immense structural strength of the towers' undamaged infrastructure below the impact zone? Remember, you have to not only overcome supporting strength but you also have to shred it to bits as well and pulverize all the concrete and other materials to fine powder. All of this work takes energy that is only available from gravitational potential energy if the official story is correct.

Your argument, even if it had been okay so far (which it hadn't), breaks down in this post severalfold:

7.1 So far you (or rather whoever whispered those arguments to you) did physics and math (albeit incorrectly). Here, you stop using physics and math and appeal to incredulity, and invite the reader to speculate on things that are far removed from human intuation. It does take engineering, physics and math to estimate just how much additional delay structural resistance would give you (answer: a lot less than your intuition tells you). Instead, you start to "Just Ask Questions" (we call that "JAQing off"). JAQing off is often a sign that you have run out of sound arguments.

7.2 The "shred it to bits as well and pulverize all the concrete and other materials to fine powder" part is not something in addition to the momentum transfer described in 1.-6., but it is a side effect and happens because of momentum transfer. You see, the collisions of floors are inelastic. Inelastic collisions, by definition, eat up kinetic energy. Where does the energy go? Into buckling and breaking stuff (mostly - and a smaller part into heat)! The 2 seconds that the fall is slowed down translates directly into energy absorbed by crushing material.

7.3 Of course, "pulverize all the concrete and other materials to fine powder" is a flat-out lie. Only a very small part of the building mass was crushed to powder. It just happens to look quite impressive during the collapse as the dust clouds, which are 99% air, obscure all the stuff that's left in huge unbroken chunks.

8. ...overcoming the steel infrastructure's strength can only INCREASE the total collapse time still further - by many more seconds...

Where is the math that proves it would be "many more seconds"? You just made a bare-assed assertion.

9. Do you actually believe that the steel infrastructure's strength was hardly stronger than the surrounding air? No? Well, there you go: a gravitationally-driven collapse is absurd.

Strawman. It's your own absurd idea.

10. Even if you assume a collapse time of 20 seconds, this is like saying that the Towers' strength gave up the ghost with little resistance at all.

Why do you keep incrementing the paragraph number? This only repeats the previous (erroneous) arguments, and adds nothing.

Imagine trying to crush and shred the monstrous strength of a WTC Tower's steel infrastructure in 1 second or two! -- all those immensely strong core columns and peripheral columns tied together in an integral steel framework of enormous sturctural integrity. How much energy does it take to do that? Humongous amounts of energy!

Your argument is really this:
  • Energy needed to crush building = Eneeded
  • Energy available from gravity alone (potential energy) = Eavailable
  • Eneeded > Eavailable
However, you fail to estimate Eneeded and Eavailable, and since you don't have the numbers, you can't possibly say whether one is greater or smaller than the other.

Where is the flaw in this logic?
...

1. You misquote your own source
2. You think energy dissipation and momentum transfer are disjoint processes; they are not
3. You stopped doing engineering, physics and math when you should have continued to provide numbers
4. You implicitly claim that, of two numbers, one is greater than the other, when in fact you don't know either. You must know both to support your claim.

Enough flaws in logic?
 
Thanks, Grizz. Now, was that so hard?

Interestingly, Jim McGlynn is the only firefighter out of this list whose testimony appears in the oral histories.

Billy Butler, Tommy Falco, Jay Jonas, Michael Meldrum, Sal D'Agastino, and Matt Komorowski of Ladder 6; Firefighter Mickey Kross of Engine Company 16, Rob Bacon, Jeff Coniglio, and Jim Efthimiaddes of Engine 39, despite surviving miraculously, apparently had nothing to contribute to the oral histories.

Grizzly, here is James McGlynn's testimony. Would you care to point out to us where he states he did not hear any explosions? He talks about hearing floors "imploding" one on top of the other. What do you think he means by that?

While you're at it, could you maybe tell us what he said that's been blacked out on pgs. 7, 20 and 33? Was it something risky to national security?

He mentions the word "explosion" one time. That's it. And he's referring to the second plane impact.

Since after that redacted part, he starts talking about someone crying, he might be rferring to a patient that was with him. As such, you're not privileged to that information. It's a HIPPA thing.

Based on the other pages, it looks like he starts talking about a patient.
 
After nine years, you still don't know the answer to this question? If you have no idea what 9/11 skeptics are saying, what are you doing here? Jibber jabbering?

Grab a clue. Carlhole's post addresses this question, but I have asked mods to move that discussion to a new or existing thread, as it is a more general, and separate topic from what is stated in my OP.
I know what they're saying. None have started at step one.

Convincing rubes (or believers) is much easier than convincing engineers and professionals. That's why AE 9/11 has so few.
 
Grizzly, here is James McGlynn's testimony. Would you care to point out to us where he states he did not hear any explosions? He talks about hearing floors "imploding" one on top of the other. What do you think he means by that?

Why don't you read the rest of it. It explains exactly what he is experiencing.

Don't be stupid.

ETA: Also, did you figure out if there were people that experienced barotraumatic injuries in the OKC bombing yet?
 
... Putting detonation charges on only the core columns, at intervals, would mitigate the sound. ...
Why was the core still standing? Why did people survive in the core?

OOPS, you are wrong, the sound would still be there and there would be blast effects on the steel, and heard. Sound would still be heard. The fact people survived in the core is proof of not explosives, they would be dead, their heads mush.

But the funny part of your moronic delusion, the core was still standing, took over 30 seconds for the core to finish falling.

You think a mass the size of the moon would not crush the WTC, you have no skill using physics, or the knowledge to comprehend why you failed.

The big fail for you and 911 truth, you have no support past 0.01 percent of engineers supporting your lies, and delusions.
The big fail for you and 911 truth is your lack of evidence.
The big fail for you and 911 truth is your inability to break this story and earn a Pulitzer Prize for what would be the biggest story of the decade, but your delusions is not going to join reality as you make up lies like the mass of the moon can't crush the WTC. The list goes on, but mowing the lawn is much more important than your failure to make an impact, or your inability to understand 911.
 
Ergo - for the 1,000th time, EXPLOSIONS do NOT equal EXPLOSIVES.

Get your head out of your :eek:

I'm not concerned with whether they heard explosions. Every competent individual who has a seen a large scale fire knows that combustibles of various kinds will explode. It's part of fire behavior. The point of asking ergo about the people in the stairwell is at their proximity they will have been in the most vulnerable position to experience injuries only attributable to blast trauma. It was his opportunity to prove unequivocally that the explosions people reported were explosive detonations

The stairwell was located within the core. That places them within range of injuries associated with the effects of a bomb detonating.

Ergo has not, will not, and cannot prove that these survivors suffered such injuries.

He has not, will not, and cannot provide evidence that similar injuries were experienced by onlookers in close proximity to the collapses.


Pretty much ends his case, whether he chooses to persist at it or not.
 
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Why are you assuming they're ten feet away from one? If you had read the OP and understood what this thread was about, you'd know that I'm talking about only a few strategically placed explosives along the core.

What else haven't you understood about this discussion?
 
Why are you assuming they're ten feet away from one? If you had read the OP and understood what this thread was about, you'd know that I'm talking about only a few strategically placed explosives along the core.

But there's no evidence of any "strategically placed explosives along the core"--for neither installation, nor for detonation, nor for residue. How can a rational person simply declare explosives were used?
 
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Why are you assuming they're ten feet away from one? If you had read the OP and understood what this thread was about, you'd know that I'm talking about only a few strategically placed explosives along the core.

What else haven't you understood about this discussion?



....which wouldn't have a prayer in the world of taking down the towers.
 


See also this, this and this.

What was falling? The huge steel columns that were connected vertically in the elevator area in systems of 1/3 of the building? Like an accordion?

The first "this" reference clearly states
It's important to realize that this process does not necessarily "break" the vertical support columns. We know that the perimeter walls peeled off to the sides, and also that tottering remnants of the core columns - the "Spires" - did not fall until several seconds after the main collapse. What was breaking at each impact were the connections of the floors to the vertical supports. The floors themselves were quickly pulverized by the tremendous energy of the collapses.
 
Let's get back to this claim that explosions were not heard by any of the survivors. Still unsubstantiated, and obviously contradicted by countless eye/earwitness testimonies. But bee dunkers claim that there were survivors in the core, during the collapses, who stated that they did not hear explosions.

No, I'd rather stay where you stepped on your dick in public (again).

So how many folks at the OKC bombing had noticeable barotrauma again? What was that number? You can even just say that you were wrong (again) and admit that you were full of **** and got your ass handed to you...

then we can move on to you inability to differentiate between simple prepositions (into vs onto)...
 
Uh, uh, uhh... not so fast, Grizz.

And where have Billy Butler, Tommy Falco, Jay Jonas, Michael Meldrum, Sal D'Agastino, Matt Komorowski, Mickey Kross, Rob Bacon, Jeff Coniglio, and Jim Efthimiaddes stated that either there were no explosions or that they did not hear any?

You mean beyond the stuff they stated here?
http://www.drgpsych.com/PSY101/Articles/Miracle+Survivors.pdf

I'm not sure if they have directly stated there were no explosives that they heard... but then again I'm not sure if they stated explicitly that MOTHRA wasn't there... or that there was No pixie dust in the towers...

Or do you mean these quotes from them
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/analysis/theories/acfd_miraclecompany_6.htm

so where in this do you hear them say there were BANGS or EXPLOSIONS????

Matt Komorowski: “The first thing I really felt was the incredible rush of air at my back. And maybe I felt it before everybody else, because I was the last guy.”
Stone Phillips: “Like a gust of wind, behind you.”
Matt Komorowski: “Gust of wind. Wind tunnel. It was the most incredible push at your back, that you can feel.”
Stone Phillips: “A rumbling sound, this gust of wind? And then what happened?”
Sal D’Agostino: “When I hit the fourth floor landing, I remember the plaque on the door. And that’s when the building started shaking. And you heard the rumble. And I said, ‘Oh, here we go. This is it for me.’”
Sal D’Agostino lurched toward a doorway, thinking its metal frame might protect him from what was to come.
Sal D’Agostino: “I didn’t even make it to the doorknob. The door got blown open at me. Just missed my face. Hits my shoulder. And that’s when the gust of wind blew me backwards. I got on my side and I crawled to the doorway, and then I just laid there. And waiting for it to come. This is it. This is horrible, and this is it. And I said a prayer.”
Stone Phillips: “You were ready to die at that point. Expecting to die.
Sal D’Agostino: “Yes. I kept waiting to get hit. Kept waiting to get hit with something really big.”
Stone Phillips: “Tommy, what do you remember?”
Tommy Falco: “I remember I was on the stairs with Josephine. And I imagine we got knocked down the stairs. I just remember laying down, and ‘OK, this is it.’ You know. ‘What’s it going to feel like?’
‘It was the furthest thing from my mind, that building coming down. I didn’t think that building could come down.’
— TOMMY FALCO
Firefighter And I said, ‘This is how it ends for me.’ I just kind of like covered my head. And, you know. Just, you know, it was just shaking and everything coming down, and the noise. It was, it was terrible.”
Richie Picciotto: “We’re like rag dolls. Getting tumbled. And I had that feeling of falling, too.”
After clearing those civilians around the 12th floor, Chief Picciotto had joined up with Ladder 6.
Richie Picciotto: “You know, when this happened, I got hit, I fell. My wife and my children flashed in front of me. And then, I prayed. I said, ‘Please God, make it quick.’ Because I just knew, you know, that we weren’t gonna survive. And I wanted to, I wanted to die quick.”
John Jonas: “I felt the floor actually moving you know, it felt like I was in a funhouse almost. The way things started heaving a little bit.”
Mike Meldrum: “I remember covering up, and saying, ‘This is it.’ And, you know, my kids, my wife. You know, my family. And it rumbled and rumbled. And it was pitch black. And then the next thing I know, I remember the dust starting to clear some. And I’m wondering if I’m, you know, where am I? Am I here? Am I not here? You know, I was guessing. I didn’t know at that point.”
Stone Phillips: “Were you all wondering, ‘Am I alive, am I dead? Where am I, what happened?”
Sal D’Agostino: “Stunned. The dust and smoke was so thick, I remember gagging, and pulling something out of my mouth. And gagging really bad. And couldn’t get a gasp of air.”
John Jonas: “We all had at least six inches of dust on us that we had to use our fingernails to get out of our eyes and our mouths.”
Stone Phillips: “Had it occurred to any of you that this building could come down like that?”
John Jonas: “No.”
Tommy Falco: “It was the furthest thing from my mind, that building coming down. I didn’t think that building could come down.”

OH they don't. Go figure.

ETA: OH wait I was wrong... they do mention explosions...AFTER THE *********** COLLAPSE HAS HAPPENED. Doh
John Jonas: “And we were hearing explosions. We were hearing rumblings right after this happened. And where I was there was like a little hole in that double sheet rock wall and I could see out and all I could see is twisted I-beams and steel. Like, just a big maze of wreckage. That was like no man’s land. We didn’t know what that was.”
Remember, that day, the stairwell was not exposed as it is today. It was surrounded by tons of fallen debris that rose like mountains around it.

Damn NWO crappy CD companies... can't even get the explosions to be timed right.
 
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Why's that, Noah?

Because they're a full three times the size of the world record, and that can't be achieved in a populated building. It's pure fantasy.

The largest of the demos require TONS of explosives, and you're taking that information, multiplying the size by three, and subtracting the amount of explosives needed?


How's them pyroclastic clouds doing?
 
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Because they're a full three times the size of the world record, and that can't be achieved in a populated building. It's pure fantasy.

By "they're" you mean the Twin Towers?

The largest of the demos require TONS of explosives, and you're taking that information, multiplying the size by three, and subtracting the amount of explosives needed?

So the largest (by that I guess you mean tallest?) building to ever be demo'd was 50 storeys high?
 

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