Corbyn's days (very) numbered?

[The Don]

When did Corbyn say he wanted to close the hospitals?

Dunno, doesn't sound familiar to me but it doesn't matter - if people believe it's the case then that's good enough these days.

It's the Tories who are deciding the policies for people with accidents and serious illness to be treated by care in the community, supposedly paid for by local authorities.

Possibly for mental illness but I haven't heard of it for physical illness - do you have a link ?

Added to which is a policy to fill the universities with Chinese

Evidence of this ?

As far as I can see, Chinese (and other foreign students) pay their way but the number of British students attending university is growing.


,

and a long-term plan to do away with the state pension, and unemployment and disability benefits.

Evidence ?

As far as pensions go, the financially ruinous triple lock is the opposite of what you claim.

The country needs electricity, even if it is imported and comes from coal, gas and future nuclear accidents.

What's your alternative for baseload ?

Rejoice in the new high speed trains and third Heathrow runways to paid for by billions, at a time when financial weakness is plainly visible.

....and ?

Have any politicians, and the London media, got any wide and practical experience?

Yes, have you ?

 

[ceptimus]

May told Copeland that the hospital would close whatever the result and the Conservatives still secured victory. It goes to show how much trust the voters are prepared to place in what they are promised by Labour.

 

[Undesired Walrus]

The people of Stoke and Copeland, in common with all Brits, hate Blair and Mandleson so much that the mere mention of their names makes turning out to vote Labour less likely.

How often do you get a former Prime Minister and a former senior member of his cabinet campaigning against their own leader and their own party policy in the week of an election?

It's not like Blair and Mandleson are on TV or in the papers very often nowadays. They made a special effort to help secure this defeat.

What is killing the Corbynites is the growing realisation that Blair and Mandleson connected more with the working class and understood them more than Corbyn ever will.

 

[Garrison]

The people of Stoke and Copeland, in common with all Brits, hate Blair and Mandleson so much that the mere mention of their names makes turning out to vote Labour less likely.

Is there a political myth you won't believe? I voted for labour under Blair three times, and would do so again. The truth is there's an unhealthy alliance of the hard left and the right wing press who want to pretend the Blair years were some sort of disaster for the country. What is the point of maintaining some notion of ideological purity under the likes of Corbyn if it denies labour the power to actually achieve anything?

The ones to blame here are Corbyn and the idiots who voted for him as Labour leader.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If Labour supporters pining for the days of Blair genuinely believe the fix is a change of leader then they will be out of power for more than a generation.

The entire party is a soulless mess. Sadiq Khan today says he thinks that anyone who supports independence is no different to a racist or islamophobe. an entirely illogical idea that barely qualifies for the title of a thought and rather ill judged when a sizeable percentage of labour voters were in the yes bucket.

Desperate.

 

[Garrison]

If Labour supporters pining for the days of Blair genuinely believe the fix is a change of leader then they will be out of power for more than a generation.

Yes I think you will find most of us 'pining' for Blair are well aware that a simple change of leader won't fix things, but it is a prerequisite to fix things. Replacing Foot with Kinnock was no panacea but without Kinnock there would have been no reform process to pave the way for John Smith(who would have been a preferably PM for me), or Blair.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Yes I think you will find most of us 'pining' for Blair are well aware that a simple change of leader won't fix things, but it is a prerequisite to fix things. Replacing Foot with Kinnock was no panacea but without Kinnock there would have been no reform process to pave the way for John Smith(who would have been a preferably PM for me), or Blair.

If it's true then why do so many talk about the leader endlessly as if it is the only issue preventing them mounting a challenge?

If you want to replace Corbyn fine. Find someone better. Who ya got? Sadiq Khannae?

 

[dudalb]

If it's true then why do so many talk about the leader endlessly as if it is the only issue preventing them mounting a challenge?

If you want to replace Corbyn fine. Find someone better. Who ya got? Sadiq Khannae?

If Labor cannot find somebody better then Corbyn, then they are truly screwed.
You just do not seem to get how important leadership is.

 

[ceptimus]

If they want a charismatic leader with proven success in achieving a political goal they could do worse than attempting to lure Nigel Farage to join their party.

 

[Garrison]

If it's true then why do so many talk about the leader endlessly as if it is the only issue preventing them mounting a challenge?

Sorry but are you truly this clueless? Try examining the history of the party in the 80s and 90s the leader was key in how well or badly the party performed. Without strong, effective, leadership there is no hope of reform. What passes for a 'grassroots' movement has given us Corbyn. The simple fact is the people who helped elect Corbyn are clueless about the real concerns of the electorate. Right now we need a Kinnock not a Foot do you understand what that means?

If you want to replace Corbyn fine. Find someone better. Who ya got? Sadiq Khannae?

How about you explain your grand alternative? Is it blunder on under Corbyn in the hopes he stumbles across popularity by some random chance?

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Well, this is pretty much the sort of reasoning that means Labour Democrats are going to be out of power for a generation: it's everyone else's fault. "They didn't get the message", "it's because of Blair Bernie", "voters are stupid", "we didn't get our message across"............and never "they don't like our message", "we've failed this community for generations" or "they don't like our leadership or policy direction".

Put this way you could be talking about the DNC after once again electing a party insider over a genuine populist for leadership.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

If Labor cannot find somebody better then Corbyn, then they are truly screwed.
You just do not seem to get how important leadership is.

I get it is important but there is a world of difference between moaning about the current one and coming up with an alternative. There is also the bigger issue of labour being unelectable because they completely lost their way.

You may remember that they just tried to find a better leader and couldn't.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Sorry but are you truly this clueless? Try examining the history of the party in the 80s and 90s the leader was key in how well or badly the party performed. Without strong, effective, leadership there is no hope of reform. What passes for a 'grassroots' movement has given us Corbyn. The simple fact is the people who helped elect Corbyn are clueless about the real concerns of the electorate. Right now we need a Kinnock not a Foot do you understand what that means?



How about you explain your grand alternative? Is it blunder on under Corbyn in the hopes he stumbles across popularity by some random chance?

My grand alternative? Im not a labour voter. Not my concern.

I would suggest they give up and go home personally if the only plan they have is replace Corbyn with another stuffed shirt and hope for the best.

Clueless indeed.

What are the real concerns of the electorate incidentally in your view?

 

[The Don]

You may remember that they just tried to find a better leader and couldn't.

True, and in part this is because the Labour Party membership chose the leader they liked the most - as they are perfectly entitled to do - and not the most electable.

It's a replay of the 1980's, the party worn down to a left wing with the more moderate members and supporters leaving, select a leader who most closely reflects their personal views. In the 1980's that meant Michael Foot, now it's Corbyn.

I suppose it all comes down to the party's aspirations. If they want to be an ideologically pure but electorally irrelevant left wing party then they're going about it the right way. Addressing the issues of and fighting the political battles of half a century ago isn't IMO the way to get elected.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

True, and in part this is because the Labour Party membership chose the leader they liked the most - as they are perfectly entitled to do - and not the most electable.

It's a replay of the 1980's, the party worn down to a left wing with the more moderate members and supporters leaving, select a leader who most closely reflects their personal views. In the 1980's that meant Michael Foot, now it's Corbyn.

I suppose it all comes down to the party's aspirations. If they want to be an ideologically pure but electorally irrelevant left wing party then they're going about it the right way. Addressing the issues of and fighting the political battles of half a century ago isn't IMO the way to get elected.

I keep seeing this ideological purity thing tossed out but I'd love to know what ideology it refers to. It seems you can't find two labour supporters to agree on anything these days so exactly what ideology is it that labour are keeping pure? And what's the better ideology offered by the alternatives?

Corbyn doesn't even seem to have any discernible policies nor do Labour as a whole currently. It's actually impossible to tell what Labour stand for in 2017. Decades of putting red rosettes on monkeys have cost them badly I think. They aren't even particularly left wing. I think people are assigning their view of Corbyn to reality and assuming that he is an old fashioned lefty so that is what Labour is.

Old fashioned lefties that are pro Brexit? Pandering to ukip? Calling scottish nationalists no different to racists? Voting with the Tories?

There no ideology. In fact it's the opposite. They have nothing.

 

[jimbob]

I keep seeing this ideological purity thing tossed out but I'd love to know what ideology it refers to. It seems you can't find two labour supporters to agree on anything these days so exactly what ideology is it that labour are keeping pure? And what's the better ideology offered by the alternatives?

Corbyn doesn't even seem to have any discernible policies nor do Labour as a whole currently. It's actually impossible to tell what Labour stand for in 2017. Decades of putting red rosettes on monkeys have cost them badly I think. They aren't even particularly left wing. I think people are assigning their view of Corbyn to reality and assuming that he is an old fashioned lefty so that is what Labour is.

Old fashioned lefties that are pro Brexit? Pandering to ukip? Calling scottish nationalists no different to racists? Voting with the Tories?

There no ideology. In fact it's the opposite. They have nothing.

Have you come across left-wing student politics?

Think, People's Judean Liberation Front sketch in the Life of Brian.

 

[Strawberry]

I keep seeing this ideological purity thing tossed out but I'd love to know what ideology it refers to. It seems you can't find two labour supporters to agree on anything these days so exactly what ideology is it that labour are keeping pure? And what's the better ideology offered by the alternatives?

Corbyn doesn't even seem to have any discernible policies nor do Labour as a whole currently. It's actually impossible to tell what Labour stand for in 2017. Decades of putting red rosettes on monkeys have cost them badly I think. They aren't even particularly left wing. I think people are assigning their view of Corbyn to reality and assuming that he is an old fashioned lefty so that is what Labour is.

Old fashioned lefties that are pro Brexit? Pandering to ukip? Calling scottish nationalists no different to racists? Voting with the Tories?

There no ideology. In fact it's the opposite. They have nothing.

I agree. If their ideology is anything its a form of Londoncentric middle class version of what left wing politics should be. Khan's unforced blunder of going to Scotland and telling the Scots that independence supporters are racists is a prime example. Preaching about the divisiveness of Scottish nationalism would go down very well in the drawing rooms of Islington, it would strike an immediate chord in the hearts of people like Shami Chakrabati and Polly Toynbee, but to the average Scot it just made Khan sound so utterly out of touch he might as well have flown in from a Galaxy far, far away.

 

[MikeG]

....... Right now we need a Kinnock not a Foot.......

There is one of those available. And a Benn too. They could do worse than the latter. There is also the highly impressive Chuka Amunna.

The thing is, by opening up the Labour party to all comers and inviting in a Momentum coup, there is now no prospect of the party grassroots accepting anyone other than Corbyn, John McDonnell, or maybe Diane Abbott. They are right royally screwed, and better hope that the Lib Dems utterly cock up being her majesty's opposition after the next election .

 

[The Don]

Now it's a plot against Jeremy Corbyn :

Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell says "a soft coup" has been launched against Jeremy Corbyn by "elements in the Labour Party".

Mr McDonnell accuses unnamed "plotters" and the "Murdoch media empire" of a "coordinated and fully resourced" coup.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39102703

I'd say that Jeremy Corbyn's political problems are of his own making...

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Now it's a plot against Jeremy Corbyn :



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39102703

I'd say that Jeremy Corbyn's political problems are of his own making...

While he hasn't helped himself in a lot of ways it's pretty hard to deny that the media have had it in for him since Day 1 and have gone a long way to ensuring that their predictions of failure have come to pass.

As have his own party continually undermining his position.

He was never really given a chance to demonstrate his own incompetence.