Corbyn's days (very) numbered?

[Airfix]

Everybody who has won an election since the EU was formed had a pro-EU stance.

Not true:
UKIP won the 2014 EU election.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/vote2014/eu-election-results

The Tories have since the early 1990's had a more Euroskeptic outlook than Labour and the last time Labour won an EU election was 1994.

Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Now if you mean "General Elections", Labour won three of those, but has lost two. The more Euroskeptic Conservative party (which is divided over the EU) has won two elections so far, and increased their number of seats, when they won a slim majority in 2015.
In their 2015 manifesto was the promise to hold an in / out EU referendum.

In 2015 Labour promised not to hold an in / out EU referendum (and lost badly).

 

[Airfix]

Well 2/3 of Labour voters voted to Remain so the parliamentary Labour Party was following the wishes of their supporters.

This is true. But they weren't in tune with the greater public mood.

remind me again why adopting an anti-EU position would be good for the Labour Party ?

Because A) Jeremy Corbyn is a Euroskeptic and it comes naturally to him.
and B) Because the public is clearly more Euroskeptic than the Parliamentary Labour Party and they would get more supporters by adopting a Euroskeptic stance.

 

[The Don]

This is true. But they weren't in tune with the greater public mood.

Only marginally so, and the demographics mean that every day the support swings the other way.

Do you really think that the best way for the Labour Party to build support is to adopt a position at odds with 2/3 of its supporters ?

Because A) Jeremy Corbyn is a Euroskeptic and it comes naturally to him.
and B) Because the public is clearly more Euroskeptic than the Parliamentary Labour Party and they would get more supporters by adopting a Euroskeptic stance.

The public at large includes right wing Tories and far right UKIPers. 2/3 of Labour supporters are Europhiles. It sounds like you're advocating driving away that 2/3 of support in a misguided attempt to attract the support of racists and xenophobes.

 

[Airfix]

Only marginally so, and the demographics mean that every day the support swings the other way.

Do you really think that the best way for the Labour Party to build support is to adopt a position at odds with 2/3 of its supporters ?

By ruling out a referendum, 3.88m people who could have voted Labour voted UKIP instead and Labour lost seats instead of returning to office.

The public at large includes right wing Tories and far right UKIPers.

Whoa! Far right ? Far right ?????

Is that the level of argument here ?

Please!!!!
UKIP are not a far right party.

To the best of my knowledge, far right politicians do not endorse points based systems of immigration, they endorse systems of expulsion and no immigration.

2/3 of Labour supporters are Europhiles. It sounds like you're advocating driving away that 2/3 of support in a misguided attempt to attract the support of racists and xenophobes.

You are trying to make out that Euroskepticism stems from racism and xenophobia.

There may be a minority of racists in the leave camp, but to allege that 17.41m Britons are racist? Jeez, that's one hell of an assumption.

Are you aware that Ed Miliband's constituency (Doncaster North) voted to leave by a majority of 57338?
104260 leave votes to 46922 remain votes.
Are you seriously suggesting that 104260 people in Ed Miliband's constituency are all xenophobic racists ?

 

[The Don]

Please!!!!
UKIP are not a far right party.

I think you are in the minority in this opinion

You are trying to make out that Euroskepticism stems from racism and xenophobia.

It was at the heart of many of the arguments made by the Leave campaign

There may be a minority of racists in the leave camp, but to allege that 17.41m Britons are racist? Jeez, that's one hell of an assumption.

That's quite a strawman you are constructing there

Are you aware that Ed Miliband's constituency (Doncaster North) voted to leave by a majority of 57338?
104260 leave votes to 46922 remain votes.
Are you seriously suggesting that 104260 people in Ed Miliband's constituency are all xenophobic racists ?

No, you are the one who is building that strawman. BTW the electorate for the Doncaster North constituency is only around 73,000 - your figures for the Brexit referendum must refer to a wider area.

You still have not addressed my question which is why is it a good idea to adopt a policy which runs counter to 2/3 or your supporters ?

 

[Airfix]

I think you are in the minority in this opinion

What you think is neither here nor there, we are discussing facts.
Where is your evidence to support your allegation?

It was at the heart of many of the arguments made by the Leave campaign

The Leave campaign suggested a move to points based immigration. Points based immigration rules are neither xenophobic or racist. People are selected by ability, not nationality or ethnicity.

That's quite a strawman you are constructing there

You're not alleging that 17.41m people voted leave out of xenophobia or racism ? Good glad we cleared that up.

No, you are the one who is building that strawman. BTW the electorate for the Doncaster North constituency is only around 73,000 - your figures for the Brexit referendum must refer to a wider area.

Source: http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2016-06-24/eu-referendum-doncaster-votes-to-leave-the-eu/

Ok, I concede that more than Ed Miliband's constituency's votes were counted in Doncaster, however Doncaster's other MPs Rosie Winterton and Caroline Flint are both Labour too.

You still have not addressed my question which is why is it a good idea to adopt a policy which runs counter to 2/3 or your supporters ?

Because the policy will get Labour far more supporters so that the party can form a government.

 

[Tolls]

Ok, I concede that more than Ed Miliband's constituency's votes were counted in Doncaster, however Doncaster's other MPs Rosie Winterton and Caroline Flint are both Labour too..

OK, but how does that change the fact that 2/3rds of Labour voters were pro-EU?

 

[Airfix]

OK, but how does that change the fact that 2/3rds of Labour voters were pro-EU?

No, but it does limit their horizons and their chances of kicking the Tories out as they're not picking up the votes they need from people who aren't pro EU.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Points based immigration rules are neither xenophobic or racist.

That would really depend on the specific rules being proposed. A points based system means nothing much of anything. Points could be allocated for being white and Christian for example.

Or it could be made so difficult to meet the criteria that almost nobody can get accepted.

So yet another meaningless campaign point from the Leave campaign used as a fig leaf for their anti-immigrant rhetoric.

 

[Airfix]

The points system used by Australia was cited by both the Leave campaign and the UK Independence Party.

It works thus:
https://assessments.visabureau.com/australia/assessment/skilled/default.aspx

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

No, but it does limit their horizons and their chances of kicking the Tories out as they're not picking up the votes they need from people who aren't pro EU.

And if they were anti-EU the exact opposite argument could be made to support them switching to a pro-EU stance.

Given that best estimates are somewhere around 50/50 it makes no sense to take a populist stance on the EU - there isn't one. Younger voters however tend to be more pro-EU so demographics would suggest that's the way to go.

Of course a more reasonable approach would be to examine the issue and choose what is right. And only a complete dunderhead would examine the EU issue carefully and think leaving is the clever move.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

The points system used by Australia was cited by both the Leave campaign and the UK Independence Party.

It works thus:
http://www.workpermit.com/australia/point_calculator.htm

Yes and? There are other points systems that were referred to as well. They are all different. It's the criteria for awarding points that matters.

They are also rather rubbish at doing what UKIP want them to do but hey ho if you listen to UKIP on anything there's not much point trying to analyse the issue.

 

[Airfix]

Of course a more reasonable approach would be to examine the issue and choose what is right.

A more reasonable approach would be to do as Labour did in 1975 which was to allow a free vote.

And only a complete dunderhead would examine the EU issue carefully and think leaving is the clever move.

17.41m people are dunderheads ?

I'll have you know I examined the EU issue very carefully and still think (along with Lord Owen and many others) that leaving the EU is the clever move.

It's a protectionist customs union, not a free trade organisation.
One does not have to be a member of it to trade with it or seek a free trade agreement with it.

 

[Tolls]

What you think is neither here nor there, we are discussing facts.
Where is your evidence to support your allegation?

This would be the UKIP that produced an anti immigration poster that bore a striking resemblance to one used by the Nazis?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

17.41m people are dunderheads ?

I never said anywhere near that number were. Hardly any carefully examined the issue.

 

[Giz]

This would be the UKIP that produced an anti immigration poster that bore a striking resemblance to one used by the Nazis?

The poster that resembled the famous "Labour isn't working" poster? That one?

Or is any poster that shows a line of people verboten because Nazis once portrayed a line of people?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

The poster that resembled the famous "Labour isn't working" poster? That one?

Or is any poster that shows a line of people verboten because Nazis once portrayed a line of people?

I think the point was that the poster wasn't just superficially similar but used the same imagery to promote the same message, in both cases it was specifically a queue of immigrants (not just a queue of random people) with the message that they were detrimental to the country they were entering. That's not to say it was deliberate, but the similarity was more than just because it 'portrayed a line of people'.

 

[Airfix]

This would be the UKIP that produced an anti immigration poster that bore a striking resemblance to one used by the Nazis?

It wasn't an anti immigration poster, it was an anti EU poster showing that the EU as an institution was at breaking point in it's ability to handle illegal immigration mostly coming from human trafficking. They could have used the picture of the drowned boy Alan Kurdi whose family left the safe country of Turkey in an attempt to get to the EU, but they didn't.
They could have used a picture of the Jungle at Calais, but they didn't.
They chose to use a picture from the Guardian.

Does it make's them Nazis to point out that the EU's decision to tear up the Dublin agreement has been disastrous ?

If so, what does it make the people who chose to tear up the Dublin agreement, the organisation which tore down borders between EU countries and created an environment in which human trafficking has proliferated, modern day slavery is rife, an environment in which people have died both at sea and on land, because of human trafficking ?

 

[The Don]

What you think is neither here nor there, we are discussing facts.
Where is your evidence to support your allegation?

It's difficult to know where to start on this. It's a bit like being asked whether water is wet.

If you examine UKIP's policies, anti-immigration, anti-environment, low taxes, low spending, they are right wing policies.

They also self-identify as right wing:

Ukip is part of the group Europe of Freedom and Democracy (EFD). The group includes representatives of the Danish People’s Party, the True Finns Party, the Dutch SGP and the infamous Italian Lega Nord

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence

 

[The Don]

Does it make's them Nazis to point out that the EU's decision to tear up the Dublin agreement has been disastrous ?

We're lucky it's a damp day here in Wales, otherwise all that straw could catch alight. UKIP have been accused of using Nazi imagery, not being Nazis.