I didn't seem to suggest an earthquake. That's your strawman. I suggested a whole lot of unhappy Labour MPs. Twenty-plus of them abstained. Plenty more will have thought that the leadership's final decision was correct, but the way of getting there was lunacy.
Corbyn did win, what's next?
- Thread starter Darat
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Antony
Graduate Poster
So tell us something new. A faction among Labour MPs have been in a state of despair since the start of the leadership election. The fact that a handful of them are making a fuss over this, is hardly worthy of comment - although inevitably there are sections of the press who will seize on the undignified sound-bites emanating from them, for the purpose of mischief-making.
I have to say that my eyebrows were raised at John McDonnell's original announcement that he would support the government on this particular detail of the welfare bill - a decision which seemed at odds with the wish to make the Labour Party a genuine party of opposition. Now that has been put right, and it's regrettable that news media are focussing on this disagreement rather than the actual vote.
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
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- 36,414
Unsurprising, though.
Having so vitriolic prior to the leadership vote, the right-wing media didn't have much choice but to continue it after he swept to victory.
What does it say about how the right see him that they demonise him this way? Fear that his brand of socialism might catch on and rich people are scared they might have to give up some of their wealth?
Listen fellas, there is a split thread for all this discussion of Al Quaeda, Bin Laden, WW2, Operation Anthropoid, and so on. Do you think you could take yourselves over there for the continuation of that conversation, and leave this thread for the discussion of Labour politics?
Clearly, when the mods split the thread they inadvertantly left some posts behind, and people are still responding to those. I've reported it, but haven't seen any mod activity to resolve the situation.
Clearly, when the mods split the thread they inadvertantly left some posts behind, and people are still responding to those. I've reported it, but haven't seen any mod activity to resolve the situation.
Antony
Graduate Poster
Actually, it's 100% predictable, and as soon as an anti-establishment figure comes to a prominent position, there's a shift in how he's portrayed. Throughout the leadership campaign, it was "hard-left extremist", "loony", "unelectable policies" and similar wild, subjective, misrepresentations.
Now there's a big risk that social justice, human rights and environmental responsibility will catch on with the public, so it's scale back on Corbyn's allegedly "evil intent" and start questioning his leadership and organisation. It won't be long before the popular press image is of a well-meaning moderate battling the unruly left-wing in his party. It happened with Foot and Kinnock, and we can see the process beginning with Corbyn.
Nope. None of the above.Why are you so bothered by what the press say? People's perception of him is a left winger who would be profligate with money he doesn't have. It doesn't matter how well meaning his social justice agenda is, his plans for the economy are disastrous. That's all you need to know about Corbyn.
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
I think former Citibank economist Michael Burke and former Bank of England Monetary Committe member Marion Bell seem to think along similar lines to the Labour party with regard to budget policy. They might be able to suggest some improvements to Jeremy Corbyn, and help him out in debates with pasty tax Osborne.
Part of the trouble is that Tory politicians don't seem to understand that London and the Home Counties, and perhaps part of the Midlands, are only a fraction of England. They know nothing about the industrial towns in the north, or in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Mrs Thatcher wanted deindustrialisation, as well as cuts and closures, and her British steel adviser Ian McGregor, from a New York bank, told the unemployed steel workers to get jobs in the financial services sector, or as footballers. That was not on. I suppose some of them got jobs in the off shore oil business. That started just in time for Mrs Thatcher.
The disastrous result is that UK manufacturing capacity and capability is now at below optimum level. Whatever happened to the British motor cycle industry?
Part of the trouble is that Tory politicians don't seem to understand that London and the Home Counties, and perhaps part of the Midlands, are only a fraction of England. They know nothing about the industrial towns in the north, or in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Mrs Thatcher wanted deindustrialisation, as well as cuts and closures, and her British steel adviser Ian McGregor, from a New York bank, told the unemployed steel workers to get jobs in the financial services sector, or as footballers. That was not on. I suppose some of them got jobs in the off shore oil business. That started just in time for Mrs Thatcher.
The disastrous result is that UK manufacturing capacity and capability is now at below optimum level. Whatever happened to the British motor cycle industry?
Really? Got any evidence for that?
My memories of that time were that she had to get rid of government owned industries which were just a joke, such as British Leyland, and she had to curtail the unbridled power of the unions (hence confrontations with the miners etc) because those silly sods held the country to ransom time after time ("who rules Britain?"). The by-product of sorting that mess out was partial de-industrialisation. It wasn't an aim in itself.
Corbyn was elected in 1983 and was part of the Bennite faction in the Labour party, which even then was considered extremist and unelectable (see the 'longest suicide note in history'). Since then he has hardly changed his views while the world has changed dramatically - with the fall of the Soviet Union it has been to argue that socialism is a viable alternative.
That applied to the large state owned industries - what squeezed private sector manufacturing was the anti-inflation policies - high interest rates and an overvalued exchange rate.
Again, the so-called de-industrialisation was a by product of other policies rather than an end in itself, as stated by Henri McPhee.
Antony
Graduate Poster
Of course, if you only listen to what people say about Corbyn and not what the man himself says, then you would arrive at those conclusions. It's all subjective, with no substance; it doesn't cut any ice once the target of it has a genuine platform.
For example, it sounds good to make an assertion about the world changing and leaving Corbyn behind - but it's nonsense. Political thinking isn't fundamentally different from one generation to the next. If anything, it's the cold-war thinking of the political establishment that is stuck in the past. Events change, but principles don't - and the injustices of the last 30 years make Corbyn's reforms more urgent than ever.
Political thinking does change, as the world sees how experiments in different options work out. Repeating failed experiments on the grounds that 'this time it will be different' is simply perverse.
Henri McPhee
Illuminator
I remember once as a kid attending a political meeting in a local hall with Wedgie Benn and another Lord whose name I have now forgotten. I think it was something to do with nuclear disarmament. He came across as quite reasonable. It was after that that I became interested in bugging. I don't know why I went there. It wasn't my idea at the time. It was probably my mother's idea.
I agreed with him about industrial strategy, and Europe being a banker's Europe but I didn't agree with his ideas on abolishing the monarchy and a United Ireland. Northern Ireland was vitally important to Britain in the second world war. I don't think he was a semi-lunatic as Murdoch and his journalists tried to portray him. That applies to Netanyahu in Israel. Most important countries have a manufacturing base.
A capitalist government consists of a private sector and a public sector. I think one of the reasons Scotland is now so fearfully aggrieved is because the mediocre business leadership in London closed Scottish shipbuilding and the Scottish coal and steel industry and fishing and the Scottish car industry. I don't know about Scottish engineering. In a global world you can't just depend on speculation in currency and property speculation. What about first class products like in Germany? The only reason Thatcher could get away with it is because of the North Sea oil revenues.
The recent troubles in Northern Ireland started when the Cyril Lord privately owned carpet factories went bankrupt.
I'm not a great admirer of the Trade Unions and their so-called industrial muscle. They have never protected my interests. I had a Trade Union official as an MP once and he was a plonker. Going back to the 1950's rail strikers were reporting back to their executive committees. Plus ca change if you pardon my French.
I agreed with him about industrial strategy, and Europe being a banker's Europe but I didn't agree with his ideas on abolishing the monarchy and a United Ireland. Northern Ireland was vitally important to Britain in the second world war. I don't think he was a semi-lunatic as Murdoch and his journalists tried to portray him. That applies to Netanyahu in Israel. Most important countries have a manufacturing base.
A capitalist government consists of a private sector and a public sector. I think one of the reasons Scotland is now so fearfully aggrieved is because the mediocre business leadership in London closed Scottish shipbuilding and the Scottish coal and steel industry and fishing and the Scottish car industry. I don't know about Scottish engineering. In a global world you can't just depend on speculation in currency and property speculation. What about first class products like in Germany? The only reason Thatcher could get away with it is because of the North Sea oil revenues.
The recent troubles in Northern Ireland started when the Cyril Lord privately owned carpet factories went bankrupt.
I'm not a great admirer of the Trade Unions and their so-called industrial muscle. They have never protected my interests. I had a Trade Union official as an MP once and he was a plonker. Going back to the 1950's rail strikers were reporting back to their executive committees. Plus ca change if you pardon my French.
Antony
Graduate Poster
What "failed experiments"? Again, you're talking in terms of what politics are ascribed to Corbyn rather than what he really represents.
Indeed, if you want an example of failed experiment, it's the endless military interventions perpetrated by the ideologues in the Tory and Blairite governments, which Corbyn has always opposed. They always try to tell us that they're going to put the world to rights, and they always make things worse.
Yeah, always. Liberia? Kosovo?Belfast port and airbases covering the north west approaches in the battle against U-boats.
Socialism as practised in Eastern Europe (a holiday destination for Corbyn and his girlfriend) and the Soviet Union would be a big one.
Indeed. North Korea is an example of the society at least some of Corbyn's acolytes aspire to.