Cop kills woman during role playing demonstration.

[Bob001]

Seems hard to believe they would intentionally fire a blank round at a person.
.....

Apparently that was their routine practice:

[The chief] .... said his department believed the gun only had blanks available and was not sure how the gun had real bullets nor how it being loaded was missed.

http://www.news-press.com/story/new...ident-punta-gorda-police-department/88500140/

Which takes me back to my comments about inept, ill-trained small-town cops.

 

[arthwollipot]

Which may be true, but appears to have pretty much sod all to do with this story.

Yes, sorry. I'll shut up now.

No, accidents only hapen when you do not have strict control over your gun. You are just attempting to justify poor gun control.

Actually no I won't. Why don't you let me tell you what I was attempting to do rather than trying to tell me what my motivations are?

 

[bruto]

Yes, sorry. I'll shut up now.

Actually no I won't. Why don't you let me tell you what I was attempting to do rather than trying to tell me what my motivations are?

It's true of course that accidents will always happen, and all rules can be forgotten and all laws broken. I'm not sure what that means, though. It still seems relevant to point out instances where the laws of common sense are broken and to criticize them.

 

[ddt]

The police were using a real revolver (no safety) that they thought was loaded with blanks. The cop intended to fire at a civilian, just not to discharge a bullet. I can't imagine that their deadly little exercise was recommended or certified by any recognized authority. And the cop had previously been fired for misconduct by another small-town department.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...uring-citizen-police-academy-training-n626956
http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...-librarian-had-been-ousted-by-miramar/2289035

The story with the bicyclist in that second link is nothing but surreal:

A year and a half after he joined Punta Gorda, Coel ran into a problem when he encountered a shoeless, shirtless man on a bicycle at night with no lights.

Riding without lights, that's a serious offender. And undoubtedly he's a gang member too. Shirtless and shoeless - is that the Crips or the Bloods?

Just for reference: over here, a traffic ticket for riding without lights is EUR 30. I would be amazed if it was very different there. And as traffic violations go, they don't come more harmless: the only one who is really at risk from riding without lights is the bicyclist himself.

He ordered Richard Schumacher to stop, but the man kept riding until he finally reached a driveway. By then, Coel said the defendant had failed to obey numerous warnings to stop.

I timed the video: he kept riding for a whole whopping 33 seconds. And I actually counted only two warnings to stop in that time. Moreover, they weren't warnings IMHO, but threats: the very first was "stop now or I´ll unleash the dog".

A dashcam video showed Schumacher cursed at him and flailed his arms. Coel's report said the man appeared to come at him, but that is not clear in the video, which is posted on YouTube.

I actually see the cyclist holding his hands in the air - and I cannot make out anything of cursing. Moreover, I see a very brave police officer who keeps sitting in his patrol car and shouting he has to get on his knees. What's with just walking over, asking his name and writing a ticket? Is that too difficult or too dangerous? Sheesh.

Finally, Coel triggered the automatic release in the patrol car that allowed Spirit, his police dog, to lunge toward Schumacher.

Yes, a shirtless shoeless man who is obviously unarmed is too dangerous for our brave officer Coel to handle himself.

For nearly two minutes, the dog tore into the defendant, 26, gnawing into his right side under his arm as the man screamed in agony. He was taken to the hospital, where he spent nearly two weeks undergoing surgery and treatment.

Really? Where does this PD procure and train their dogs? From Buchenwald? This is insane. The guy did nothing more than riding without lights, and he gets mauled by a vicious dog.

Ultimately, he was given a warning for riding a bike without lights and was charged with driving under the influence on a bicycle, fleeing and attempting to elude a police officer, a probation violation, and obstructing an officer without violence.

Oh yes, let's tack on everything we can think of. Over here, the police is all too happy when I take the bike when I go out drinking instead of the car.

And this guy is still on the force. What kind of police state do you guys live in?

 

[pgwenthold]

What has the NRA said about this "exercise"?

Being all about safety that they claim to be, they must certainty condemn their methods, yes?

 

[bruto]

.... What kind of police state do you guys live in?

I wish I could toss that off as anti American hyperbole, but it's getting nasty and I don't think it's going to get better for a while.

I recall long ago, a source now long forgotten who opined that you know you've arrived at Fascism when the police stop seeing their job as protecting the people and see it as protecting the state against them. I hope we're not there yet, but I don't think we're headed in the right direction.

 

[Darth Rotor]

What has the NRA said about this "exercise"?

Being all about safety that they claim to be, they must certainty condemn their methods, yes?

Why would they say anything?
Cops have guns as part of their job.
Part of their job is to handle them.
NRA has Nothing To Do With This.

As someone else said: don't point a gun at someone you don't intend to shoot.
Assume all guns are loaded.
IF you are running an exercise, for goodness sake, follow all of the safety rules and safe things up BEFORE the exercise starts.

Negligent Homicide at best, and a large lawsuit for a wrongful death.
I'd like to be on that jury so that we could award triple damages for being so freaking stupid.

 

[a_unique_person]

Why would they say anything?
Cops have guns as part of their job.
Part of their job is to handle them.
NRA has Nothing To Do With This.

As someone else said: don't point a gun at someone you don't intend to shoot.
Assume all guns are loaded.
IF you are running an exercise, for goodness sake, follow all of the safety rules and safe things up BEFORE the exercise starts.

Negligent Homicide at best, and a large lawsuit for a wrongful death.
I'd like to be on that jury so that we could award triple damages for being so freaking stupid.

They seem to have something to say about everything gun. Almost.

 

[catsmate]

If it was stupidity not involving injury, you'd be correct.

The guy's finished, as he should be.

The only thing left to be determined will be criminal charges and what the municipality pays out for his negligence.

I wouldn't be so sure, given his previous history.

 

[Crossbow]

Let's just note that this was NOT an "unloaded" weapon. The cops knew it was loaded, they intended it to be loaded; they were just confused about what it was loaded with. They deliberately pointed a real, loaded gun at a person and pulled the trigger.

OK then. My mistake, so I will rephrase ...

Unfortunately, this is not the first the first time an improperly loaded gun has killed someone and it will not be the last time that a person is killed by an improperly loaded firearm.

I hope this helps.

 

[Joe Random]

Why would they say anything?
Cops have guns as part of their job.
Part of their job is to handle them.
NRA has Nothing To Do With This.

As someone else said: don't point a gun at someone you don't intend to shoot.
Assume all guns are loaded.
IF you are running an exercise, for goodness sake, follow all of the safety rules and safe things up BEFORE the exercise starts.

Negligent Homicide at best, and a large lawsuit for a wrongful death.
I'd like to be on that jury so that we could award triple damages for being so freaking stupid.

My main exposure to the NRA was going through one of their hunter safety courses when I was in my mid-teens. At the time they had quite a rigorous and unflinching stance on firearm safety, down to specifying acceptable ways of confirming that different action firearms were unloaded. To their thinking it was almost impossible to be completely safe when checking a lever action rifle, for example.

Long drills on everything related to firearm handling, from how to properly unload, to how to safely cross a fence, to how to tell if it's safe to fire at your target. They instilled a healthy sense of respect without fear, and made it clear that firearms were something to take seriously, period end.

As such I'd hope that they'd say something about what appears to be a complete and total failure to observe even the most basics of firearm safety. Not to weigh in about politics of things, the legal issues or possible charges/lawsuits. Just a simple "See, this is why you don't **** around with guns. This is serious." would be nice. Maybe that's more appropriate for down the road, though. Wait for some time to pass before they start using it as Exhibit A in the section on "this is why your instructor yelled at you for not confirming the pistol he handed you was unloaded in last night's class".

 

[LTC8K6]

A different story than always using a revolver with blanks...

Heck said in the previous sessions she has been in, "everyone is involved in the role playing scenarios. She said they use "what we call simunition guns" for the session. Simunition products are real-looking weapons that fire a nonlethal projectile with reduced force.

"Exactly what happened last night is still under investigation," Heck said.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...ot-by-punta-gorda-cop-role-playing-as/2288888

 

[theprestige]

Now that is stupid.

It's like double stupid.

 

[marplots]

Sounds like it was an accident though.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I wish I could toss that off as anti American hyperbole, but it's getting nasty and I don't think it's going to get better for a while.

I actually think it is getting better. Through dash cams, body cams and ubiquitous cell phone cams the police are now having to face at least some criticism of their actions and the bad ones are being tossed. Maybe not enough, but I suspect more than they would have been in the past. I think we have passed peak "bad-cop".

 

[Madalch]

And to think that I ignored all those warnings in the 1980s about the dangers of role-playing games.

 

[maximara]

It varies by jurisdiction. The local state's laws will apply. After that, it depends what charges, if any, the prosecutor decides to bring. If charges are brought it will probably be something like involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide. Sentencing varies by jurisdiction, but is usually a prison term that may be mitigated by good behavior and other factors.

There may also be administrative penalties such as suspension or dismissal. This may be at the discretion of the police department or mandated by state or local regulation.

There may also be civil penalties, if the victim's family go to court. These are typically in the form of monetary penalties, and may consist of both compensatory payments and punitive payments. These can run to hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. The police department may also be sued for civil liability.

"In the US" is often far too broad a category, due to the distributed nature of governance and the amount of regional differences.

ETA: How is it penalized where you live?

Not only local laws but possibly state and even federal laws may apply. US law can be very complex regarding situations.

There is also the specter of gross negligence and in the light of the death of actors using guns that fired blanks such as Jon-Erik Hexum and Brandon Lee as well as Tucker Thayer of St. George, Utah in a stage play and depending on the details criminal negligence or criminal recklessness could also apply.

Gross incompetence could also apply.

 

[pgwenthold]

Why would they say anything?
Cops have guns as part of their job.
Part of their job is to handle them.
NRA has Nothing To Do With This.

As someone else said: don't point a gun at someone you don't intend to shoot.
Assume all guns are loaded.
IF you are running an exercise, for goodness sake, follow all of the safety rules and safe things up BEFORE the exercise starts.

Negligent Homicide at best, and a large lawsuit for a wrongful death.
I'd like to be on that jury so that we could award triple damages for being so freaking stupid.

Because they are the largest gun advocacy group in the world, and they claim that their focus is on safe handling of firearms, if they really wanted to lead on this issue, they should be outspoken in their condemnation of high-profile cases of clearly unsafe and irresponsible practice.

 

[maximara]

If they are not mentally equipped to role play a crime then they are NOT MENTALLY EQUIPPED TO BE POLICE OFFICERS! If they cannot unload a gun, cannot turn on the safety, and cannot keep their fingers off the triggers, then they cannot safely serve as law enforcement officers.

ETA
And even if one is using an unloaded weapon as part of a role play, there is no reason to point the weapon directly at a person - pointing the weapon in a person's direction without actually pointing the weapon at the person's vital organs is a perfectly acceptable way of adding another layer of safety.

Very true as several actors have died due to the improper use of guns that were supposed to be filled with "blanks".

Given the occasional story of some kid being shot because the plastic gun they were carrying looked like the real thing you have to ask why didn't the police department use one of those?

 

[bruto]

I actually think it is getting better. Through dash cams, body cams and ubiquitous cell phone cams the police are now having to face at least some criticism of their actions and the bad ones are being tossed. Maybe not enough, but I suspect more than they would have been in the past. I think we have passed peak "bad-cop".

I hope you're right, and do acknowledge that some of what appears to be things getting worse is probably the increased visibility of things. What I don't like at the moment is the adversarial attitude that is appearing in public opinion, and the reluctance of police departments to toss the bad ones. Anyway, I hope you're right, and will happily accept being wrong.