Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

[excaza]

That was quick

 

[Dave Rogers]

Another member posted that the fire was "underground" that sounds pretty under the pile to me. Unless the pile was more under than underground. Maybe that's what they mean to say with "everything went to hell that day"?

I'm not responsible for the fact that you can't understand simple concepts. Describing the fire as "underground" is based on the definition that "ground" is the top of the rubble pile. It's a loose definition, but it's useful for people who are interested in understanding the events of 9/11, rather than those who are trying to confuse the issue so that the gullible will believe their fantasies, to compare the rubble pile fires with other underground fires.

BTW, what amount of time do you refer to by "considerable periods of time after the collapses"? Hours, days or weeks?

This is well known, and easy to find out. Since you don't know it, I can only conclude that you don't know much about 9/11, and hence your opinion is relatively uninformed.

False? Then what gave the pieces 3 acres away enough lateral impulse to get there? My theory is that the building collapsed vertically downward on its footprint.

That isn't even coherent. Your theory is self-contrdictory.

I'm not scared to say the f word. Because although related to controlled demolitions it is also seen in other collapses. For example earthquaked induced collapses. I also don't believe that the collapse tower would have kept it shape as one nice block on top of its footprint. Clearly the debris began to flow out as the collapse. There was a lot of collisions and rebounds as the stuff flew outward by ricochet as it fell and "bounced" off the pile.

So you're saying that collapsing into its own footprint doesn't necessarily imply controlled demolition, and that it didn't collapse into its own footprint? Fine, we can agree on both of those things.

To say that some material flew three acres out in a parabolic fall path is to imply the presence of huge impulses. Surely some lighter material did spread out and of course there is the cloud. But to claim that heavy beams could be spread out evenly around 16 acres is to accept explosives.

Wrong. Firstly, the energy available from gravitational potential was many orders of magnitude greater than any conceivable amount of explosives that might have been present, given that none were reported and no appropriate sounds were heard at the time they would have to have been heard for explosives to play any part in the collapses. Secondly, explosives don't selectively throw out large objects and leave smaller ones undisturbed; if the larger fragments had been thrown out by explosives, those same explosions would have thrown smaller fragments further and faster, peppering everything in a line of sight with shrapnel and breaking every window in lower Manhattan that faced the towers. The only rational explanation of large objects being thrown outwards is simply off-axis collisions during the collapses; it's painfully obvious that explosives couldn't have produced the same effect.

Once again the error in your statement is to believe that one implies the other. That footprint collapse means controlled demolition. Footprint collapses are a product of controlled demolition, but controlled demolitions gone bad can end up in nothing like a footprint collapse. So I would say that footprint collapses are what controlled demolitions strive to achieve, but in no way guarantee.

The error in your statement is that you change it to its opposite whenever you feel like you're in danger of looking like you're wrong. The result is that you're now arguing that a collapse into the footprint both is and isn't evidence of a controlled demolition, and that the collapses both were and weren't into their own footprints. As a result, your entire line of argument has become so incoherent as to be unworthy of further attention.

Dave

 

[Jackanory]

My theory is that the building collapsed vertically downward on its footprint. I'm not scared to say the f word. But to claim that heavy beams could be spread out evenly around 16 acres is to accept explosives.

That footprint collapse means controlled demolition. Footprint collapses are a product of controlled demolition, but controlled demolitions gone bad can end up in nothing like a footprint collapse. So I would say that footprint collapses are what controlled demolitions strive to achieve, but in no way guarantee.

Your ignorance and incredulity is noted and expected.

No controlled demolition falls within its 'footprint'. FACTOID.

The word 'footprint' is a trutherism that does not belong in the real world of real CD's. A 'footprint' is the man made supportive 'footings' or 'foundations' of a single structure. Those in the build and construction industry often refer to the 'footprint'..........not those in the CD industry. Safety zone. Safety area. Debris zone. Debris area etc....yes! 'footprint' no! No controlled demolition strives to drop into its own 'footprint'...............because it is physically impossible to do so. Been there, done it, got the 'T' shirt. You're talking crap. Speculation and supposition do not convince those who do it for real. Those are the people who you need to convince.......not the internet kids who do nothing but troll.

The 'footprint' of WTC 1 was width x length = ? Did WTC 1 fall only within this?

The 'footprint' of WTC 2 was width x Length = ? Did WTC2 fall only within this?

If the answer is NO..(TIP/Clue - it is NO) .....then neither fell within their own 'footprint'. Get it ??

Trutherism's such as 'footprint' and 'pull it' are born out of pure ignorance and stupidity and often copied from others born on the very same.

 

[Sabretooth]

Good, now that we got that settled. And thank you for taking the time to set it down in writing. Now we can move on.

Now getting back to the black boxes. How do you guys think the black boxes made it into the underground fires when they were on the topmost floors? Did they race and beat all other debris on the way down?

Where do you get your delusions?

Every hear the term "needle in a haystack"?

Only, in this case, the "needle" is a toothpick made of wood and it's in a haystack the size of a barn. And it's on fire.

I still don't know what theory you're pushing about not finding the boxes. I suspect that even if they were recovered, you'd spin your delusions into some other form of hysteria and controversy.

 

[Travis]

I though we were discussing the distribution of the debris and the relative location of the black box within them. Please explain to me how 10 floors can come crushing down on the black box, entrap it in a fire and yet leave enough debris for a 16 acre field. Were the antennas that large and capable of creating that much debris?

1) The final location of the black boxes is likely near the WTC tower footprints but that wouldn't help if they are just disintegrated pieces 2) you really don't understand just how big those buildings were do you?

 

[Travis]

.....and is Anders really proposing that in addition to shape charges pre-weaking cuts were also made on the columns.....without anyone noticing!?!

 

[Sabretooth]

.....and is Anders really proposing that in addition to shape charges pre-weaking cuts were also made on the columns.....without anyone noticing!?!

yes

 

[Jackanory]

.....and is Anders really proposing that in addition to shape charges pre-weaking cuts were also made on the columns.....without anyone noticing!?!

Yeah....he was also suggesting that the fascade was rigged to cut like an aircraft too. Ya know that flimsy stuff that bends easily with that supersecret and supersilent explosive stuff that only BENDS stuff. lol. Perhaps it was those kevlar jackets that did the trick in not only damping the sound but also directed the explosives not to blast but to BEND into the shape of an aircraft.

Cool stuff this 911 conspiracy business. lol. Hilarity progress and much better than plymouth hubcaps, dont ya think. lol.

 

[Anders Lindman]

.....and is Anders really proposing that in addition to shape charges pre-weaking cuts were also made on the columns.....without anyone noticing!?!

No, no demolition charges were needed for the steel columns (except for the plane impact holes). At least not on the floors other than those who were rigged with Thermite and Kerosene (possibly floor 81 and 83 in the South Tower for example).

 

[Jackanory]

No, no demolition charges were needed for the steel columns (except for the plane impact holes). At least not on the floors other than those who were rigged with Thermite and Kerosene (possibly floor 81 and 83 in the South Tower for example).

Cool stuff. lol. Do you do this often? lol. Do your friends laugh at you too or is this your little secret hobby? lol.

 

[BigAl]

I though we were discussing the distribution of the debris and the relative location of the black box within them. Please explain to me how 10 floors can come crushing down on the black box, entrap it in a fire and yet leave enough debris for a 16 acre field. Were the antennas that large and capable of creating that much debris?

Half a million tons of steel fell an average of 600 ft. I see that as one big grinder acting on all the material that came down with it, black boxes included.

Get away from imprecise labels like "in it's own footprint" and learn what really happened. How you do that 9 years after the fact, I dunno. About a million New Yorkers learned by living through it and seem to have no problem with the basic 9/11 story. I'm one of those people.

No eyewitnesses have joined the Truth Movement.

 

[carlitos]

False? Then what gave the pieces 3 acres away enough lateral impulse to get there?

Here are four reasons:

- Ricochet
- Snapping
- Lateral release of vertical columns
- Tipping over (hinge mechanism)

The stuff "three acres away" was the result of building parts "tipping over."

Here is a video that explains the first three concepts, courtesy of Dave Thomas at NMSR.

 

[BigAl]

Another member posted that the fire was "underground" that sounds pretty under the pile to me. Unless the pile was more under than underground. Maybe that's what they mean to say with "everything went to hell that day"?

BTW, what amount of time do you refer to by "considerable periods of time after the collapses"? Hours, days or weeks?

Ask Bill Smith. He says that fires under the pile were hot enough to melt (and keep melted) thousands of tons of steel for weeks after 9/11.

Anything hot enough to melt steel is hot enough to completely melt a black box.

I think the fires were declared out after 5 weeks. They were removing WTC debris for 5 months, 24x7 non-stop with an estimated 7,000 people involved. Read Nine Months at Ground Zero By Stout, Vitchers, & Gray

 

[carlitos]

Cool stuff. lol. Do you do this often? lol. Do your friends laugh at you too or is this your little secret hobby? lol.

"Rigged with kerosene" tells me that someone has never held a job, been to an office, etc. "Living in mom's basement" is probably over-used, but I think that a non-trivial percentage of these guys must qualify.

Truth guy - You can't "rig a building" with Thermite, kerosene, termites, bombs, nanu-termites, nothing. In the real world, you can't do this. Why aren't you getting this? There is paperwork, security, the annoying fact that there are PEOPLE working in this building every day. Those people have eyes, ears, noses, brains. Can't be done. Stop it.

 

[T.A.M.]

I though we were discussing the distribution of the debris and the relative location of the black box within them. Please explain to me how 10 floors can come crushing down on the black box, entrap it in a fire and yet leave enough debris for a 16 acre field. Were the antennas that large and capable of creating that much debris?

I have no idea how much of the 10 - 30 floors actually came down directly on the black box. You still have not proven that there wasnt enough debris to destroy the black box...it is your theory....burden of proof is on you....when are you going to begin p roving your theory?

TAM

 

[Jackanory]

Here are four reasons:

- Ricochet
- Snapping
- Lateral release of vertical columns
- Tipping over (hinge mechanism)

The stuff "three acres away" was the result of building parts "tipping over."

Here is a video that explains the first three concepts, courtesy of Dave Thomas at NMSR.

Perfect and simple. Simple stuff isnt it. Easy to explain to a 4 year old yet very difficult to explain to a truther hell bent on adding explosives into the mix. All it took was an aircraft, fires, time and our natural magnet to do the rest. A little jiggery and pokery by some deluded cretins and we have a conspiracy. Cool stuff. lol. Long live the stupid.

 

[BigAl]

The existence of "a pile" leads me to believe there was a higher concentration of material in the so called "pile" than the other 16 acres. The existence of material underground in the "basement" leads me to believe it fell from the top into said "basement". Since the basement is underneath the building and thus in its footprint your observations now indicate that the building did indeed fall into its footprint thus creating the "pile" you refer to.

Now the fact that the f word is related to controlled demolitions and thus politically incorrect is quite possibly the reason why you want to stay away from using it. But do realize that sooner or later you'll come around to express position that will imply an "on the footprint" collapse like it or not.

Don't use labels unless all parties agree what the labels mean. You clearly have in mind the meaning of "pile" and "footprint" uninformed by the facts.

Here's a calibrated height map of the pile taken on 9/13 covering WTC nd the immediate area. The "square" in the center is the 16 acre WTC plaza.

Keep in mind that much of the debris collapsed into 5 levels of sub-basement.

The pile isn't big, it isn't little or high or short. It is what it is. Learn about the facts before you declare what must have or can't have happened.



http://www.geo.hunter.cuny.edu/geonews/october2001.pdf

 

[Sabretooth]

.....and is Anders really proposing that in addition to shape charges pre-weaking cuts were also made on the columns.....without anyone noticing!?!

Lest we not forget that the support columns were secretly rigged by engineers during construction so that WTC would completely collapse in an earthquake...for safety!

 

[Architect]

Anders, can you answer some questions for me please?

1. Do you accept that normal fire loadings are sufficient to cause weakening and failure in unprotected structural steelwork?

2. How do you account for the weakening effect of the damage to the steelwork arising from the aircrat impact? Likewise do you accept that the aircraft impact and explosions will have compromised the integrity of any structural fire protection?

3. To what extent to you believe that this is dependent upon your previous guesstimate of safety factors within the structure? So, for example, do you wish to revise your position now you know that there wasn't (say) a FoS of 5?

Anders?

 

[Myriad]

Here's a more detailed rendering of that CUNY LIDAR map:

This shows pretty clearly where the debris went. Most of it is piled up high in and immediately adjacent to the upper tower footprint. Some is scattered over a wider field, but not enough to be piled very high. Some plaza areas are lower than their original level, where debris collapsed and filled basement spaces. Keep in mind that those underground spaces were not, as Anders claims, directly under the tower footprints. There were shopping concourses, subway tunnels and platforms, and parking lots spread over a much larger area. Prior to the collapses, not much of the volume of the concrete "bathtub" foundation was filled with earth. The entire block shown in the center of the image, with the WTC towers, plaza, and buildings 3, 4, 5, and 6 (not including WTC7 across the street) was basically all one big building, with the bottom five floors below the plaza level.

So after the collapses, what you had was a huge concrete vessel, partly filled with collapsed rubble including large amounts of combustible material (some of which is already burning), partly with still intact built spaces also containing combustible material (store stock, parked vehicles, machinery) and air, with large air ducts (the subway tunnels) feeding in at the bottom. When something like that is built on purpose, it's called a kiln.

Respectfully,
Myriad