Controlled demolition vs. the towers collapsing

[triforcharity]

I said the detonations in this demolition were barely distinguishable from the fireworks. Somewhat contrary to what Big Al says about the sound produced by standard demolition charges being audible from Hoboken to lower Manhattan.

No, not really, I can tell when the fireworks stop, and when the explosives start, even without looking at it.

This is not even an applicable question. Explosives in the basement alone would not bring down the towers, as the 1993 bombing demonstrated. Again, the core remnants we see for a few seconds after the rest of the building has fallen is not something that "remains standing". The only thing significant about that remnant is that it kind of doesn't fit in with the crush-down mode with an intact upper block, that Bazant postulates.

Correct, explosives in the basement would be useless.

Read for comprehension. Try it something. I said that the core remains standing after the collapse.

Please explain why it doesn't fit Bazant's conclusions. Show us the math.

You realize Bazant and Zhou wrote the first one?

Yes, I do.

Here are the experts.

D.E. Newland
D. Cebon
Zdeneˇk P. Bazˇant,
Yong Zhou
T. X. Yu
Walter P. Murphy

Care to count those?

Real physicists and engineers already have, as you well know from many other threads here.

Where? I haven't seen them. JO911S is a sham journal, concocted by the TM to have a journal specifically for them. I tried to have something published in their "journal" but I was denied. Why you ask? I was not invited. That is NOT how a RESPECTABLE journal operates.

Bentham Open is a sham journal, and accepts anything. Including computer generated nonsense. Bentham has no peer-review process beyond "Did the check clear?". This also is NOT how a respectable journal operates.

Real journals will publish something that is good, even if they do not invite you. (I have published MANY different papers myself) You NEVER have to pay to get something published. This is how respectable journals operate.

They also allow discussions on the subject. JO911S allows none of that. I have tried.

So, start naming those papers that have been published in a respectable journal. I'll wait.....

 

[Sabretooth]

But things like "lose most of its strength" isn't enough! Buildings like that surely must be built at least 5 times the needed strength to withstand decades of aging, severe hurricanes and minor earthquakes. So losing 51% of the steel's strength isn't enough. AND the fire could not possibly have made the steel equally weak everywhere. And since steel is a very good heat conductor you need Thermite do cause enough weakness on some floor.

So buildings are maintenance free?

You are still making assumptions about things you don't understand. Stop being ignorant.

 

[Anders Lindman]

So buildings are maintenance free?

Weren't the core and exterior columns maintenance free?

 

[BigAl]

Weren't the core and exterior columns maintenance free?

Yes, mostly but the immediate environs are maintained.

FWIW, I ran a computer operation in the second sub-basement of the Empire State Building back in the day. All the ESB columns were bare beams passing through our space. There was no place to hide anything.

 

[grandmastershek]

The Jersey shore

Be careful with that phrase. For people in this area it has a very specific meaning in location; which has been diminished by a select group of human trash not from said location.

From the Jersey Shore you could see the smoke. But I get your meaning.

 

[BigAl]

Be careful with that phrase. For people in this area it has a very specific meaning in location; which has been diminished by a select group of human trash not from said location.

From the Jersey Shore you could see the smoke. But I get your meaning.

Thanks. I clarified the post.

 

[Travis]

Actually I have heard of a factor of 3 or something like that being mentioned for the WTC towers. But I don't know the exact figure so I threw in 5 for good measure.

So you just made that figure up thinking no one would call you on it. Interesting.

 

[lapman]

I said the detonations in this demolition were barely distinguishable from the fireworks. Somewhat contrary to what Big Al says about the sound produced by standard demolition charges being audible from Hoboken to lower Manhattan.

Here is the problem with this. The sound of both the fireworks AND the explosives was recorded. Even in the video that was shot behind thick glass, the sound was still there. However, in 100% of all raw video of the collapses of WTC 1, 2, and 7, you hear nothing like that. Every camera had a clear line of sight with nothing to block the sound. In the videos of the towers, you hear the sound of the collapse, but nothing prior to the start of it. That's what you twoofers keep ignoring. The columns would have had to be cut first, and then the bulding collapses. Not the other way around.

 

[lapman]

But things like "lose most of its strength" isn't enough! Buildings like that surely must be built at least 5 times the needed strength to withstand decades of aging, severe hurricanes and minor earthquakes. So losing 51% of the steel's strength isn't enough. AND the fire could not possibly have made the steel equally weak everywhere.

That would be true if 100% of the columns were intact.

And since steel is a very good heat conductor you need Thermite do cause enough weakness on some floor.

If it could conduct the heat away from the fire, the same would be true for the heat generated by thermite. And since it hasn't been shown that thermite would even weaken the columns since the reaction lasts for seconds, it's still only an unproven fantasy. Now, please explain how they were able to do this with a simple camp fire.

Remember, the rails are put on top of the fire, not in the middle of it where it's the hottest.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Remember, the rails are put on top of the fire, not in the middle of it where it's the hottest.

That definitely looks like the kind of weakness of the steel that would have been enough. But I don't know. My amateur guess is that Thermite would have been needed to cause enough weakness. And the molten metal seen pouring out of one of the floors of one of the WTC towers looks suspicious to me.

 

[daws59]

What?

I have a DVD audio and they are all credited, if you do research.

What?

Brian Wilson did it.

excerpt from rumblevillains: "Re Beach Boys .... look at who's shown on the cover of Pet Sounds ... the three Wilsons plus Messers Love and Jardine ... so who made the music? ... Using your standard issue Oxfam Rooster it was obviously the work of the Beach Boys. But who R E A L L Y made that music .... twas Brian Wilson plus members of Phil Spector's Wrecking Crew with a few later vocal additions by brother Carl and the babbling Mike Love. Now explain how that is "complete and utter nonsense", s.v.p. The comparison which is obviously beyond your limited comprehension: maybe it wasn't Al Qaeda at all ... bin Laden did deny any involvement long before his fake video confession."

the poster has yet to explain how this disproves Occam's Razor..

 

[ergo]

So you just made that figure up thinking no one would call you on it. Interesting.

Tony's paper "The Sustainability of the Controlled Demolition Hypothesis for the Destruction of the Twin Towers", April 24, 2007, mentions a safety factor of 5. Hope he doesn't mind me citing this.

Due to the need to withstand rare high wind, ice, and seismic loads, the tower’s perimeter beams had a minimum factor of safety of 5.00, when considering normal gravity loads only.The central cores were designed with the more standard factor of safety of 1.67, since they took normal gravity loads only. Prior to the attacks, on a low wind, warm sunny day, with no earthquakes, such as Sept. 11, 2001, the beams in each tower would have had no more than 33% of their total load sustaining capacity used.

Kevin Ryan also talks about a live load column capability of 2000% before failure could occur. He might have got this from the original Engineering News Record article on the towers.

July 8, 1965

HOW COLUMNS WILL BE DESIGNED FOR 110-STORY BUILDINGS

For record-height towers of New York's World Trade Center, engineers proportion columns to avoid floor warpage when high-strength steels are used for exterior columns and A36 steel for interior columns.

A design procedure that will be used for structural framing of the 1,350-ft high twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City gives the exterior columns tremendous reserve strength. Live loads on these columns can be increased more than 2,000% before failure occurs.

 

[AaronMic22]

My amateur guess is that Thermite would have been needed to cause enough weakness.

And amateur guessing is constructive how? These arguments are best settled by professional scientists and explained in layman's terms to those who are not.

Amateur hypothesizing is a waste of time, especially when the hypothesis has already been discounted.

 

[ergo]

Here is the problem with this. The sound of both the fireworks AND the explosives was recorded. Even in the video that was shot behind thick glass, the sound was still there. However, in 100% of all raw video of the collapses of WTC 1, 2, and 7, you hear nothing like that. Every camera had a clear line of sight with nothing to block the sound. In the videos of the towers, you hear the sound of the collapse, but nothing prior to the start of it. That's what you twoofers keep ignoring. The columns would have had to be cut first, and then the bulding collapses. Not the other way around.

Yes, thanks, Lapman. My point in posting those videos was to show that not all detonations have that loud bang, bang, bang that you can hear echoing through buildings in standard controlled demolitions. In fact I wonder what kind of sound plastic explosives (for example) might make.

It may also be worthwhile to consider what charges placed only on the core structure, or perhaps just a few strategically placed bombs, might sound like on the outside.

And you're wrong that "nothing was heard" prior to the start of collapse. Most of the survivor testimonies that I linked to describe hearing an explosion, or several, before collapse begins. The number might depend on where they were in the building.

 

[daws59]

Yes, thanks, Lapman. My point in posting those videos was to show that not all detonations have that loud bang, bang, bang that you can hear echoing through buildings in standard controlled demolitions. In fact I wonder what kind of sound plastic explosives (for example) might make.

It may also be worthwhile to consider what charges placed only on the core structure, or perhaps just a few strategically placed bombs, might sound like on the outside.

And you're wrong that "nothing was heard" prior to the start of collapse. Most of the survivor testimonies that I linked to describe hearing an explosion, or several, before collapse begins. The number might depend on where they were in the building.

ear witness testimony? please present some actual empirical evidence to bolster that claim, without it, it's meaningless.

 

[Anders Lindman]

I don't know, but what about floor 83? Could it have been floor 83 where the fireball explosion started?

I found something very interesting. First: "NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid." -- From: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

So could it have been floor 81 that was rigged with tons of kerosene and Thermite?

Here comes the interesting part:

"I had imagined huge disguised flower pots of powdered Thermite near the elevators of a normal office floor of the south tower. But even that didn't make sense. Furthermore, if the 81st floor was a normal office floor of Fuji Bank, why doesn't the NIST report simply say so?
Silence was all I ever received from NIST.

Then, suddenly, out of the blue, a former bank employee came forward, a person who had visited the 81st floor on a weekly basis. His information explains more than he probably thought and provides us with a major clue about what really happened on 9/11.

Fuji Bank had torn up the 81st floor, he said, and stripped it down to the bare bone to reinforce the trusses so that the floor could hold more weight. Then they had built a raised floor and filled the entire floor with server-size Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) batteries.

These units were bolted to the raised floor which stood about 3 feet above the reinforced 81st floor. Beneath the raised floor ran the cables and power supply that connected the army of batteries. IT techies had to get down on all fours and crawl around beneath the raised floor to connect cables.

"The whole floor was batteries," he said, "huge battery-looking things." They were "all black" and "solid, very heavy" things that had been brought in during the night. They had been put in place during the summer prior to 9/11, he said.

But were they really batteries?

"It's weird," he said. "They were never turned on."

So, what really was on the 81st floor of WTC 2? What was in these heavy "battery-looking things?" Were they batteries, or were they Thermite?

Only senior Information Technology (IT) personnel from Fuji Bank, or the Japanese banks affiliated with it, had access to the 81st floor computer room, according to the source. The Mizuho Bank was established originally as Mizuho Holdings, Inc. by the merger of Dai-Ichi Kangyo Bank (DKB), Fuji Bank and the Industrial Bank of Japan (IBJ) in 2000.

According to the former bank employee, employees of Shimizu-America Corp. also had access to the floor.

Shortly after 9/11, the IBJ became the biggest player and took over the new corporation that had been created by the merger, primarily because the offices of the DKB and Fuji Bank had been destroyed in the World Trade Center, the source said.

The offices of the IBJ were located on the Avenue of the Americas and became the new headquarters for the bank. The DKB and Fuji Bank personnel soon found themselves out of work.

"Nobody worked on that floor," the source said about Floor 81. The whole floor was taken up with a "whole bunch of batteries" and "enclosed server racks" that were so tall that one could not see over the top of them. The enclosed server racks were locked and the only people who could open them were employees of the Shimizu Corp., he said.

Didn't the host of NIST scientists think that was worthy of mention? They either did not know that the 81st floor was full of "battery-looking things" or decided not to mention it. How odd.

William Torrey, the Atlanta-based senior vice president of Shimizu-America, said he could not say anything about the work that Shimizu did on the 81st floor because of ongoing litigation. Asked about the litigation, Torrey said he could not comment on that either.

Seth Martin, the non-Japanese spokesman for the Mizuho Corp., could not give any comment for this article. Mr. Martin did not respond to repeated calls." -- From: http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Bollyn-Fuji-WTC.html

 

[ergo]

ear witness testimony? please present some actual empirical evidence to bolster that claim, without it, it's meaningless.

Please read the thread. I've posted the link at least three times, and have excerpted from it twice.

 

[BigAl]

Yes, thanks, Lapman. My point in posting those videos was to show that not all detonations have that loud bang, bang, bang that you can hear echoing through buildings in standard controlled demolitions. In fact I wonder what kind of sound plastic explosives (for example) might make.

It may also be worthwhile to consider what charges placed only on the core structure, or perhaps just a few strategically placed bombs, might sound like on the outside.

And you're wrong that "nothing was heard" prior to the start of collapse. Most of the survivor testimonies that I linked to describe hearing an explosion, or several, before collapse begins. The number might depend on where they were in the building.

Lots of air-fuel explosions. No high explosives. We know this due to the lack of barotrauma injuries

 

[daws59]

Lots of air-fuel explosions. No high explosives. We know this due to the lack of barotrauma injuries

is that the same as concusive injuries?

 

[Anders Lindman]

My guess is that in the South Tower, floor 81 and 83 were rigged with tons of Thermite and tons of kerosene.

Floor 81: "Fuji Bank had torn up the 81st floor, he said, and stripped it down to the bare bone to reinforce the trusses so that the floor could hold more weight. ... "The whole floor was batteries," he said, "huge battery-looking things." They were "all black" and "solid, very heavy" things that had been brought in during the night. They had been put in place during the summer prior to 9/11, he said. ... "Nobody worked on that floor," the source said about Floor 81. The whole floor was taken up with a "whole bunch of batteries" and "enclosed server racks" that were so tall that one could not see over the top of them. The enclosed server racks were locked and the only people who could open them were employees of the Shimizu Corp., he said." -- From: http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Bollyn-Fuji-WTC.html

Floor 83: No tenant. -- See: http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/tenants2.html

"At 9:03 AM, a jet, apparently Flight 175, slammed into the southwest face of the tower, creating an impact hole that extended from the 78th to 84th floors." -- From: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc2.html