Continued: (Ed) Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Uh oh. Looks like PZ might have his FREEZE PEACH taken away...

http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/8993



I'm conflicted. Isn't it a professor's job to police what the students think and say outside of the classroom? That's the only way to protect the free and open marketplace of ideas, right?

I don't think a letter from a right-wing Conservative religious group is going to hold much sway with the board of a liberal arts college.

Which is not to say that Myers was right, of course. If he wants the paper censored, then I'm sure there are official channels he could take and, if that didn't work, I'm sure there are some ears he could whisper in to in order to have the students organise a peaceful, lawful protest.

 

[d4m10n]

I wonder how the ratio of male FtBloggers who have first hand experience with false rape accusations compares to that of the general population.

2 falsely accused (Avicenna and Thibeault) with around 17 others presumably never accused.

To my understanding, PZ was not accused of rape.

 

[SimplyAghast]

2 falsely accused (Avicenna and Thibeault) with around 17 others presumably never accused.

To my understanding, PZ was not accused of rape.

I forgot all about Avicenna. My goodness. So if .06% of all rape accusations are false, what are the odds that ALL of these were unfounded?

As for PZ's situation, we don't know the age of the young woman; the (probably) hypothetical encounter could have been statutory. PZ has also failed to go into extreme detail, so we have no idea what happened. Further, many on the FTB/A+ side point out that any sex that occurs between people with a massive power differential (teacher/student) can't be truly consensual. What should we do in such a situation? Well, PZ would urge us to "Believe the Victim."

PZ also has a history of directing sexually charged comments toward women and even repeatedly told a stranger he would be having sex with her in his hotel room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OhbLDFeE4w

Feminist blogger Rebecca Watson even commented in public upon the strangeness of PZ's libidinous drooling.

So I don't even know WHAT to think!

 

[d4m10n]

Ah, Skepticon 3. Back when FtB was still friendly with JREF and it was still okay to joke about sex onstage. I remember it like it was just a few years ago.

 

[tsig]

Ah, Skepticon 3. Back when FtB was still friendly with JREF and it was still okay to joke about sex onstage. I remember it like it was just a few years ago.

I knew PZ before he became the Devil Incarnate.

 

[squealpiggy]

It's amazing someone prominent on "Free Thought Blogs" appears to only approve of free thought that agrees with his thought./QUOTE]

Actually when Thunderf00t was a bit free with his thought on Free Thought Blogs and they kicked him off he made the argument that the name Free Thought Blogs is a bit of a misnomer. PZ and others made it very clear that Free Thought doesn't mean you are free to think what you like!

They were slightly less clear on what it does mean though.

I'm lead to wonder, who is the most prominent American atheist man yet to be accused of some sexual impropriety?

He's not American but I'm not sure Richard Dawkins has been accused of sexual impropriety. He was accused of being a rich white man though, and that seems to amount to the same thing.

On second thoughts while Dawkins is not American he was born in Kenya. Like your president...

Heh.

EDIT

Does marrying Romana from Doctor Who count as impropriety?

 

[d4m10n]

Does marrying Romana from Doctor Who count as impropriety?

If by impropriety you mean pure awesome.

I knew PZ before he became the Devil Incarnate.

Me too.

 

[tsig]

If by impropriety you mean pure awesome.



Me too.

With hindsight I wonder if I could have done something when I met him to avoid the evil to come but how could I know that he would blow an innocent invitation to coffee into an Internet boom and then strategically torpedo all the other atheist leaders til he was left with the sole power. The reign of blood and terror he has instituted has left many out in the cold as Paul the Zealous hordes attacked them with vicious invective and ruthless insults til their spirit broke.

The horror!

 

[GDon]

He's not American but I'm not sure Richard Dawkins has been accused of sexual impropriety.

A few years back, the Rational Response Squad accused Dawkins of sleeping around while travelling in the USA. They offered no evidence for this though, and no-one believed them.

 

[SimplyAghast]

A few years back, the Rational Response Squad accused Dawkins of sleeping around while travelling in the USA. They offered no evidence for this though, and no-one believed them.

Well, I'm glad to say we now have the FTB Squad to police skepticism, many of whom have been accused of the same crimes they seek to prosecute.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Well, I'm glad to say we now have the FTB Squad to police skepticism, many of whom have been accused of the same crimes they seek to prosecute.

It's sort of a thing that anti-gay crusaders often turn out to be gay. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if some of the men most dedicated to outing others as sexual predators were fighting their own demons too (although obviously I support outing actual sexual predators and support equal treatment for LGBTetc people).

 

[SimplyAghast]

It's sort of a thing that anti-gay crusaders often turn out to be gay. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if some of the men most dedicated to outing others as sexual predators were fighting their own demons too (although obviously I support outing actual sexual predators and support equal treatment for LGBTetc people).

Funny you should say that. I don't know the JREF board's policy regarding such a thing, but a prominent FTB commenter has confessed to...let's just say VERY bad things.

Instead of urging him to get help or turn himself in to try and help the victims he (if he's to be believed) created years ago, they give him hugs and pretend that anyone who points out what he said is a liar.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Funny you should say that. I don't know the JREF board's policy regarding such a thing, but a prominent FTB commenter has confessed to...let's just say VERY bad things.

Instead of urging him to get help or turn himself in to try and help the victims he (if he's to be believed) created years ago, they give him hugs and pretend that anyone who points out what he said is a liar.

I am not a mod or admin, but my understanding is that as long as X is not a member of the JREF forums, it is perfectly okay to say "X admitted on the FTB boards to being a rapist" or whatever.

Exactly what would happen if X was in fact a member here under another pseudonym is an interesting question, but even in a worst-case scenario I can't imagine anything worse would happen than the post in question getting deleted.

There are rules against attacking other board members, as a mechanism to enforce civility, but I can say "George W. Bush is a war criminal" or "Russell Crowe molests goats at children's parties" if I want to say that as long as they aren't forum members.

 

[SimplyAghast]

I am not a mod or admin, but my understanding is that as long as X is not a member of the JREF forums, it is perfectly okay to say "X admitted on the FTB boards to being a rapist" or whatever.

Exactly what would happen if X was in fact a member here under another pseudonym is an interesting question, but even in a worst-case scenario I can't imagine anything worse would happen than the post in question getting deleted.

There are rules against attacking other board members, as a mechanism to enforce civility, but I can say "George W. Bush is a war criminal" or "Russell Crowe molests goats at children's parties" if I want to say that as long as they aren't forum members.

Well, I have no idea if this person is a JREF member. I will provide links and quotes.


In August of last year, Ogvorbis, a commenter at FTB, confessed to raping a few children. Now, there is indeed a complicating detail or two. Yes, according to his posts, a "scout leader" abused him and compelled him to rape another girl.

If you can stomach the painstaking description of the episode, here are links to the images:

http://i.imgur.com/sQIwq8E.png

Anyone who reads the posts will indeed be sad about humanity. But then the commenter points out that when he was "much older," he...did terrible things to two girls he was babysitting.

See above images and the posts in this thread:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/30/stunned-silence/comment-page-2/#comment-682206

Again, I'm sure we can all acknowledge that it's a bit of a complicated situation. Either way, we all wish that Ogvorbis had gotten the help he needed as a child and hadn't created additional victims because of the "monster" he says is inside him.

The ultimate point is the monumental hypocrisy of the FTB folks. Dr. Shermer was accused of serial rape...and they join in. Krauss? He's an abuser, too. Why, Ben Radford MUST be guilty of SOMETHING, take my money!

But when they have an honest-to-goodness confession of child rape on their own board? They offer the confesser pounce hugs and babysitting gigs.

How can we take them seriously about ANYTHING?

Ogvorbis analysis:

http://skeptischism.com/moseszd/2013/11/04/ogvorbis-yes-hes-an-admitted-rapist/

 

[Foolmewunz]

Well, I have no idea if this person is a JREF member. I will provide links and quotes.


In August of last year, Ogvorbis, a commenter at FTB, confessed to raping a few children. Now, there is indeed a complicating detail or two. Yes, according to his posts, a "scout leader" abused him and compelled him to rape another girl.

If you can stomach the painstaking description of the episode, here are links to the images:

http://i.imgur.com/sQIwq8E.png

Anyone who reads the posts will indeed be sad about humanity. But then the commenter points out that when he was "much older," he...did terrible things to two girls he was babysitting.

See above images and the posts in this thread:

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/08/30/stunned-silence/comment-page-2/#comment-682206

Again, I'm sure we can all acknowledge that it's a bit of a complicated situation. Either way, we all wish that Ogvorbis had gotten the help he needed as a child and hadn't created additional victims because of the "monster" he says is inside him.

The ultimate point is the monumental hypocrisy of the FTB folks. Dr. Shermer was accused of serial rape...and they join in. Krauss? He's an abuser, too. Why, Ben Radford MUST be guilty of SOMETHING, take my money!

But when they have an honest-to-goodness confession of child rape on their own board? They offer the confesser pounce hugs and babysitting gigs.

How can we take them seriously about ANYTHING?

Ogvorbis analysis:

http://skeptischism.com/moseszd/2013/11/04/ogvorbis-yes-hes-an-admitted-rapist/

I'm not sure if I should thank you for that or not. The FTB thread is an eye-opener. I just sat glued to the screen for over an hour-and-a-half reading the comments. Even when the subject of the article which inspired the comments (Elyse) comes in and tells them that she can't stand reading the comments, particularly from child rapists, they continue hugging the Og person because they are "certain" he/she/zir/zod/whatever is a "good person".

Certain? From comments on the flipping internet?

It's like cathartic confession in fundamentalism. Come to Jesus and testify and all will be forgiven! No, it won't. All will be forgiven when that person types those words in a letter to the authorities in the jurisdiction where this occurred and makes some effort to make sure those little girls lives were not totally ruined. Og is addressing an audience of victims and only one or two of them speak up for the victims of his predation? The knee-jerk circling of the wagons (which they openly refer to as "circling the wagons", fer crissake... talk about total lack of self-awareness) is, frankly, quite disgusting.

But, again, to me the real problem is that they're taking what amounts to an internet persona and assuming the best about that persona. In a thread about abuse, with abuse victims participating, they're patting a perpetrator on the back and saying "Good you got that off your chest, now go and sin no more, we still love ya." You DO NOT KNOW the person you're communicating with on the internet. You DO NOT KNOW a person from their thought-out introspective letters - just ask Norman Mailer re Jack Abbott, fer crissake.

Every single person on those comments should have been saying, "Look, I suppose it's a good start that you're getting all of this off your chest, but now... the next step is...." And that next step would not include "tell us more", but would include contacting the authorities and starting to make things right - which is nigh onto impossible, but it would be a start that I could respect instead of this "oh, boo hoo, I done bad things because people did bad things to me".

 

[Stout]

The ultimate point is the monumental hypocrisy of the FTB folks. Dr. Shermer was accused of serial rape...and they join in. Krauss? He's an abuser, too. Why, Ben Radford MUST be guilty of SOMETHING, take my money!

But when they have an honest-to-goodness confession of child rape on their own board? They offer the confesser pounce hugs and babysitting gigs.

How can we take them seriously about ANYTHING?

Just speculation on my part but I'd say it has to do with none of these guys self identifying as being screwed up atypical

Just suppose one of them came out as being trans or gay or as having serious mental health issues and offered up their behaviour as being a way to mask those traits. Throw in a heartfelt apology and they too might be the recipient of pouncehugs.

 

[Meed]

It appears from my reading of it that Ogvorbis was 12 at the time of the incident he described.

"The last year that I lived out west, I was offered a summer job babysitting two girls (aged about 4 and 7(?)). Divorced father who worked with my dad. Good job for a twelve-year-old -- $6.00 a day."

The analysis SimplyAghast linked to seems to claim otherwise:

"I do not see how any reasonable person can deny that Ogvorbis has admitted to raping four girls. The three girls he raped as a teenage babysitter as well as the girl he was forced to help rape when he was younger (12)."

So if my reading is correct he was 12 and had been sexually abused at the time that the events he described took place. Doesn't make it okay, but it's enough that I wouldn't harp on about him being a rapist as a way of attacking FTB the way some people do.

I could be reading something wrong or missing something though (?).

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

This post in another thread on FTB (where ironically there is still knee jerk defence) says it best:

Al Dente said:

Pitguess (sic) @6 I’m impressed. You hate FTB so much that no lie is too despicable for you to utter. You must be really proud of yourself that you’ll accuse someone of vile crimes just so you can show your hatred for them.
Hey, Dente, since when is quoting someone verbatim a lie?

Ogvorbis said:

I didn’t stop before raping three young girls (all were, give or take, the same age as ‘S’, the girl I was forced to abuse while a scout). I was older. The age difference was even greater. I knew it was wrong even as I joined in and I still did because it may be wrong but its what I was used to.

(My emphasis.)

Ogvorbis’s words. You get that Dente? His words.
There is a lot of implied horsehit in that paragraph. For example: The first issue is Ogvorbis’s tacit implication that he is/was not guilty/responsible for his actions — “its what I was used to” — which is ******** anyway. Victims of abuse do not always, do not even frequently become abusers because they were abused. In fact, it is a fairly rare phenomenon. Also, and this is critical, he states, unequivocally, that he was aware, you see that Dente, he was aware that it was wrong. But he did it anyway.

And it goes on. All of Ogvorbis’s self-scourging is designed to achieve what he did in fact succeed in achieving: hugs and the blessings from his rape-apologist pals at Pharyngula. His entire series of confessions is based upon a litany of fallacies: recovered memory; lack of responsibility for actions due to past abuse; self-scourging as soul-cleansing; the devil made him do it, and so on. And his victims have, throughout his chain of obscene confession, been ignored; utterly ignored so that the Pharyngulates can wallow in their chthonic glee at absolving the pentitent of his crimes, that’s right folks, crimes of rape so as to clear their own guilty consciences of who knows what sort of vile behaviours they themselves performed in the past.
The confessional booth in the church of Pharyngulates. Lord PeeZus; what have you wrought? Amazing, simply amazing blatant hypocrisy.

Bolding mine.

The histrionic self-flogging whilst offering rationalizations is what does it for me, in combination with no apparent thought for the girls. And he states right there that he knew it was wrong at the time. His claimed recovered memories also lead to questions of veracity, in addition to the general concerns about anonymous internet postings. But they didn't seem to care about any of that.

I have something to get off my chest:

I haven't abused any children. I am sick a monster, that happens to volunteer at an animal shelter, because I am a monster! Oh, also I am so fat. 6'2" and 185 lbs, waistline 32". God, I am morbidly obese! Also, I am so stupid. I may have graduated at the top of my class in high school, but I can't figure out why they embraced this guy. Moron!

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

It appears from my reading of it that Ogvorbis was 12 at the time of the incident he described.

Anyone who has read this thread knows I'm no admirer of the FTB community, or A+, but as you say this Ogvorbis character (if anything they say is true, which I'm skeptical about) was twelve at the time.

That's far below the age of legal responsibility, so calling for Ogvorbis to go turn themselves in to the authorities seems kind of pointless. They couldn't be charged with anything even if they did try to turn themselves in. It's also below the age at which people are generally held to be morally responsible for their actions in the same was that adults are held responsible.

Frankly Ogvorbis' whole story, complete with miraculous recovered memories of how they beat up a larger bully, seems far more consistent with them being a narcissistic attention-seeker or deluded than anything else. I wouldn't be surprised if they really were a paedophile, but I also wouldn't be surprised if nothing else about their stories were factual.

I don't think anything about the incident shows the FTB community in a positive light, but I think the criticism aimed at them over it is somewhat excessive. I wouldn't let anyone who claimed to have a history of child sex offences anywhere near a child, even if they did seem nice now on the internet, but I also wouldn't break out the torches and pitchforks to hunt them down if they claimed to realise it was wrong and hadn't offended since they were twelve.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Anyone who has read this thread knows I'm no admirer of the FTB community, or A+, but as you say this Ogvorbis character (if anything they say is true, which I'm skeptical about) was twelve at the time.

That's far below the age of legal responsibility, so calling for Ogvorbis to go turn themselves in to the authorities seems kind of pointless. They couldn't be charged with anything even if they did try to turn themselves in. It's also below the age at which people are generally held to be morally responsible for their actions in the same was that adults are held responsible.

Well, as a once-twelve-year-old who used to babysit, I can recall that I was sexually curious with girls in my own age group but it would never have occurred to me to take that curiosity out on the six year old girl I was baby-sitting and teaching to swim.

I, too, don't buy all the histrionics and all the stories. Neither Og's nor all of the others. It's just too pat a hand and seems to be all part and parcel of the I'm More Screwed Up Than You Are game. And I sure as hell won't take rantings on the internet as any kind of data set.

Frankly Ogvorbis' whole story, complete with miraculous recovered memories of how they beat up a larger bully, seems far more consistent with them being a narcissistic attention-seeker or deluded than anything else. I wouldn't be surprised if they really were a paedophile, but I also wouldn't be surprised if nothing else about their stories were factual.

I don't think anything about the incident shows the FTB community in a positive light, but I think the criticism aimed at them over it is somewhat excessive. I wouldn't let anyone who claimed to have a history of child sex offences anywhere near a child, even if they did seem nice now on the internet, but I also wouldn't break out the torches and pitchforks to hunt them down if they claimed to realise it was wrong and hadn't offended since they were twelve.

I'm really not "after" Og. I'm more interested that their instinct is to offer what is largely an anonymous fictitious character (for all intents and purposes) caring and nurturing support but nearly no one - in a group of people who all claim to be screwed up because they were abused sexually - addresses the issue of his victims. Are those three girls out there as current "walking wounded" trying to put their lives together? Did they grow up to be abusers, serial double-parking violators, arsonists, shoplifters, murderers? Yes, I'm being facetious..... but NO ONE cares, apparently. It's more important to protect your own than to do what's right... in their world.