Continued: (Ed) Atheism Plus/Free Thought Blogs (FTB)

[d4m10n]

I don’t think it's too much to ask men and women not to have the first sentence they utter to someone be a cold proposition for sex, however clumsily veiled.

(Then again, I'm not usually invited to those sort of parties.)

 

[d4m10n]

But from the vlog, given her smiling description of the actual event, I'm convinced she was exaggerating the outrage.

Upon reviewing the video, I'm not seeing much outrage there.

Both PZ and Phil Plait have taken the position they believe whatever women say about feeling harassed because they are not women.

Upon further review, I'm not hearing accusations of harassment.

That same woman promoted and posed for a sexually revealing calendar and sponsored hotel room parties at TAM, as well as the Brothel themed party.

From which we may safely assume she is always DTF, or at least open to an invitation.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, just late at night in an isolated space.

Seems your main interest is that men can get a wet willy as often as possible and anything that gets in the way of that is evil.

My main interest is common sense.

This has all been thoroughly hashed out. Some people see it your way and some think going up one floor in a lift in a first class hotel in Dublin, no matter the hour, is hardly the dangerous dark space you are implying.

In fact people were challenged to find all the elevator assaults they could and people dredged up a few. Then it was pointed out that the denominator was all the billions of elevator rides in the same time frame and it turned out elevators were extremely safe places for women to ride in.

According to RW herself, the guy politely asked for coffee and talk in his room. All the objectifying and accusing him of just wanting sex came from RW's head if we take her account at face value.

 

[Meed]

I don’t think it's too much to ask men and women not to have the first sentence they utter to someone be a cold proposition for sex, however clumsily veiled.

I don't think it's too much to ask men and women not to assume that someone asking someone else to have coffee with them is "propositioning for sex".

 

[d4m10n]

I don't think it's too much to ask men and women not to assume that someone asking someone else to have coffee with them is "propositioning for sex".

He was asking her to come back to his bedroom, yeah? Not out to Starbucks or the Irish equivalent thereof.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Upon reviewing the video, I'm not seeing much outrage there.

And yet you take her 'incredibly uncomfortable' as an accurate description.

Upon further review, I'm not hearing accusations of harassment.

Did you miss the whole year of the sexual harassment and plunge into the depths of extremist feminism that preceded this incident?

I thought you'd been around longer than that.

From which we may safely assume she is always DTF, or at least open to an invitation.

Hyperbole is not helping your case.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

He was asking her to come back to his bedroom, yeah? Not out to Starbucks or the Irish equivalent thereof.

Do you get out much? Most people don't refer to their hotel rooms as their bedrooms.


This is like time travel. You step away from a forum and years later, it's still Groundhog day.

 

[d4m10n]

Do you get out much? Most people don't refer to their hotel rooms as their bedrooms.

I've been to more than a few hotels in my day. Coffee makers are usually a rudimentary one cup affair. Beds are generally the main event.

And yet you take her 'incredibly uncomfortable' as an accurate description.

I'd've been incredibly uncomfortable myself, being asked back to a private space with nothing but coffee, basic cable, and beds for entertainment.

Did you miss the whole year of the sexual harassment and plunge into the depths of extremist feminism that preceded this incident?

I did. Got any links?

 

[Meed]

I've been to more than a few hotels in my day. Coffee makers are usually a rudimentary one cup affair. Beds are generally the main event.

Hotel rooms typically have beds in them, yes. That doesn't change the fact that referring to someone's hotel room as "their bedroom" is an odd and misleading way to put it. Maybe if one had a luxory hotel sweet with multiple rooms and invited someone to their bedroom specifically it would be a fair description.

I'd've been incredibly uncomfortable myself, being asked back to a private space with nothing but coffee, basic cable, and beds for entertainment.

I don't think it's unusual to hang out in someone's hotel room with conversation being the primary purpose / mode of entertainment. It isn't from my experience anyway. The way you put it, I have to wonder why you think anyone would invite someone to a Starbucks, with them only having tables and chairs for entertainment.

 

[surreptitious57]

It is quite amazing how an entirely reasonable comment generated that much internet drama
And especially after you remember that the video in question Rebecca made was not actually
about the incident. That was merely an after thought as the subject was the conference itself
Now the only nitpick I would have with her is that she cannot speak for all women only those
that share her opinion on this issue. Although I would not labour that point given that I am a
man so have no experience of a total stranger seeking to proposition me in a confined space
in a foreign country in the middle of the night. Or indeed of generally being a woman. So my
opinion upon such matters counts for nothing and is something I have no problem with at all

 

[wareyin]

You seem to be reading my posts with a flair for creativity.

If men don't have the right to hit on women when and where they want there will be no sex, no sex, no humans so she was calling for nothing less than the end of the human race.

Seems your main interest is that men can get a wet willy as often as possible and anything that gets in the way of that is evil.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've been to more than a few hotels in my day. Coffee makers are usually a rudimentary one cup affair. Beds are generally the main event.

I'd've been incredibly uncomfortable myself, being asked back to a private space with nothing but coffee, basic cable, and beds for entertainment.

Sheesh, what kind of dives do you stay in? Even Motel 6 has a table and chairs. But did you forget this was a 4 star hotel in a major city?

Rooms in the hotel this happened in, in case you wanted to actually look instead of just imagining.

There are even one bedroom suites with a living room and a bedroom.

I did. Got any links?

All you need to do is find anything on the Skepchicks from 2010 or earlier:

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/22/are-the-skepchicks-too-sexy/

https://skeptopia.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/why-ill-never-return-to-jref-forum-or-the-amazng-meeting/

http://skepchick.org/2010/05/the-skepchick-wild-west-bordello-at-tam-8/

And compare that to any links from 2011 or later:

http://skepchick.org/2012/06/why-i-wont-be-at-tam-this-year/

DJ was blaming women skeptics for creating an unwelcoming environment. I found that claim astonishing, since I was only aware of women speaking frankly about their own experiences and their own feelings. I couldn’t imagine that DJ would be literally blaming the victim for speaking out. To be sure, I asked him in that thread to give us examples of what he was talking about. To my surprise, this was his response:

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It is quite amazing how an entirely reasonable comment generated that much internet drama
And especially after you remember that the video in question Rebecca made was not actually
about the incident. That was merely an after thought as the subject was the conference itself
Now the only nitpick I would have with her is that she cannot speak for all women only those
that share her opinion on this issue. Although I would not labour that point given that I am a
man so have no experience of a total stranger seeking to proposition me in a confined space
in a foreign country in the middle of the night. Or indeed of generally being a woman. So my
opinion upon such matters counts for nothing and is something I have no problem with at all

I believe this has been addressed about a zillion times but as psychology studies have repeatedly shown, it doesn't matter that you correct the information, the incorrect information will be remembered instead.

The kerfuffle was never about the vlog. It was always about RW's outrageous reaction to a couple responses to her vlog.

Also, "total stranger seeking to proposition me in a confined space in a foreign country in the middle of the night" is one description. Dublin is hardly what one thinks of as a 'foreign country'. Going up one floor in an elevator in a 4 star hotel is generally well lit and isn't far from a response to a scream so I have a hard time seeing the 'confined space' as being the most important part of the description. And while it was 4 am it sounds like a lot of people were still up and about in the hotel.

And proposition is akin to calling a hotel room a bedroom. He didn't ask her to come do the nasty with him. He asked if she wanted to stay up and talk.

 

[d4m10n]

There are even one bedroom suites with a living room and a bedroom.

In that case, we can be confident that our mystery host was hoping merely for coffee and chit-chat. Probably just a weird inconvenience that this banter would happen in private with a bed close to hand.

Do you seriously believe this, or are you just trolling?

EDIT: Are you familiar with the idea of an indirect speech act? Here is a brief primer.

All you need to do is find anything on the Skepchicks from 2010 or earlier...

You claimed that there was a "whole year of the sexual harassment" and then gave me a bunch of links which had nothing to do with sexual harassment. Why?

 

[Meed]

In that case, we can be confident that our mystery host was hoping merely for coffee and chit-chat.

The claim was that an invitation for coffee shouldn't be assumed to be a proposition for sex. Not that "we can be confident that our mystery host was hoping merely for coffee and chit-chat".

Probably just a weird inconvenience that this banter would happen in private with a bed close to hand.

How is that an inconvenience? Or weird?

 

[Meed]

Dublin is hardly what one thinks of as a 'foreign country'.

Um. Ireland is a foreign country if you aren't from Ireland. It may be more similar to the US than a lot of other countries are, but this still seems like an odd line of critique.

 

[Meed]

It is quite amazing how an entirely reasonable comment generated that much internet drama
And especially after you remember that the video in question Rebecca made was not actually
about the incident. That was merely an after thought as the subject was the conference itself

I agree that it wasn't a comment that should have generated a bunch of drama, but I think it was more the Stef McGraw thing that made the drama blow up. Further fueled by Myers, Dawkins and others.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Rebecca characterized her experience as "incredibly uncomfortable" in the original video. You can call that just a minor annoyance if you like, through I doubt that she would agree. Had you been in her place, no doubt you would have characterized that infamous encounter in different terms, but everyone sees the world a bit differently.

That is nice and all, and I see no reason to question her reaction but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is what is reasonable and acceptable, not how people feel.

So why is this behavior unreasonable and unacceptable? People like sex and some of them enjoy sex outside a long term committed relationship. This isn't wrong. Yes it would be nice to make the heterosexual dating scene less defined by gender roles but that isn't going to happen any time soon.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don’t think it's too much to ask men and women not to have the first sentence they utter to someone be a cold proposition for sex, however clumsily veiled.

(Then again, I'm not usually invited to those sort of parties.)

Of course she doesn't claim that this was. She admits they might have been hanging out at a bar for quite a while before that. Now I don't see the attractions of bars at all, let alone for dating but they are a broadly accepted location to look for individuals to hook up in.

 

[d4m10n]

What is relevant is what is reasonable and acceptable, not how people feel.

It is reasonable and acceptable to avoid making people feel strongly uncomfortable, unless there is some compelling reason to do so.

So why is this behavior unreasonable and unacceptable?

Because it is foreseeable that it would make someone uncomfortable.

People like sex and some of them enjoy sex outside a long term committed relationship.

Do they enjoy being cornered by strangers and asked for coffee sex without having any prior emotional connection?