Continuation: 'What about building 7?'

[Grizzly Bear]

We dont charge our students tuition fees here and unlike yourself I have no case to make that would justify a refund.

You have proven the NIST wrong. Please move forward for this curious audience, please state where the debate goes from here

 

[chrismohr]

The argument here that WTC 7 was anything but a controlled demolition is pure bogus nonsense.

The fact that the exterior of the building comes down in a symmetric free fall can't possibly have been caused by anything but controlled demolition by the simultaneous removal of all 24 core columns over a number of stories low in the building.

The fact that the NIST model does not replicate the free fall or actual building condition during the failure and has severe exterior deformation, which is not observed in the actual collapse, along with it being discovered that those who authored the report needed to omit pertinent structural features to even make it superficially plausible, negates the NIST WTC 7 report as a viable explanation.

If WTC 7 had some form of demolition devices in it they had to be pre-positioned before Sept. 11, 2001. This means it was a planned event.

The horizontal propagation of the failure in WTC 1 (the North Tower) occurs in less than a second across the entire 98th floor which is virtually impossible to have happen naturally, and the fall of the upper section shows no sign of deceleration during its fall, meaning it could not be a naturally produced vertical propagation and that some form of demolition devices were removing the structural integrity below the falling mass above.

Finally, the results of 911 were the use of the U.S. military to remove governments involved in oil and gas production and pipelines that were not friendly to certain U.S. fossil fuel corporations.

Most sane and rational people have acknowledged that we have a carbon dioxide overabundance problem in the earth's atmosphere that is being caused by excessive consumption of fossil fuels, that this excessive carbon dioxide is preventing heat from being radiated back to space in the right proportion and causing a global temperature rise and climate change. They also recognize that the only way to curb it is to go to cleaner energy technologies and electric cars in massive ways to get to break even. We don't need to eliminate carbon dioxide in the atmosphere but only keep it to where the trees and vegetation can keep it in the proper balance.

It is clear that 911 was done for oil corporation purposes and the sad part on top of that is that they were trying to get the public to deny climate change. Ultimately, climate change will lead to massive problems for everyone if it is not addressed.

Most realize that the wealthy perpetrators of 911 will never be indicted or even publicly exposed. However, they do have a moral obligation to humanity in general, which includes their own children and grandchildren. They have the money to make a difference and can move us forward. They can induce the use of clean energy and natural gas to get the carbon dioxide levels down below break even and most would not mind them making a profit doing it. The Rockefeller family recently moved its trust fund investments into renewable clean energies.

We can make all of the electric we could ever use with wind, solar, tidal turbines, parabolic solar reflectors, and even natural gas (which is much more abundant than petroleum and much cleaner) and this can power electric cars. With about 50% electric cars and clean energy powering them we will probably get below break even with carbon dioxide. However, the investment money for the clean energy and electric car infrastructure needs to come from those with it and that is the oil companies. They need to become "energy companies", as they were at least hinting at a few years ago, and help move us back from the abyss.

This is what the 911 shills here should be telling their bosses instead of trying to incessantly spin away from and cover up the obvious controlled demolitions of the three buildings in NYC on Sept. 11,2001. We know there won't be any indictments or trials so just do the right thing overall. Even David Ray Griffin mentioned a truth and reconciliation commission with immunity like what was done in South Africa. Even if that doesn't happen, hopefully the oil barons will do the right thing. We will be watching.

Tony, I couldn't agree more with the second half of your post. At some point I have to say goodbye to the 911 argument. I mean really, look at all the posts about who da boss. I became an activist during the Vietnam War and demonstrated against it (and set myself up to move to Canada if I had a low draft lottery number). In the Reagan years I fought hard against torture and wrote a book about the Central American dictators. Then I ran the Colorado Peace Mission and raised money to fly people to Washington to lobby for peace and nuclear sanity. Then I ran an international prison meditation program. And now... rebutting 9/11 Truth theories?
A year ago I decided to just create a final video, stick around a few months to respond and answer questions, then say goodbye to 911. I got bogged down in my low tech skills re video editing, but I think it's soon time to slow down my posts here, teach myself the damn program, put out the video, and eventually move on.
I don't know where to go from after that, I know I will want to contribute in some way politically or socially as I have all my life. But your suggestion is really a good one. The whole fossil fuel infrastructure is making such a mess of our planet, and inspires wars and pollution. You're right, we can do better. Maybe some day you and I will be on the same side of something for a change.
Ziggi I'll respond when I have time, it's a full weekend.
Peace,
Chris

 

[Animal]

We dont charge our students tuition fees here and unlike yourself I have no case to make that would justify a refund.

Yep.....they get what they pay for.

 

[NoahFence]

The argument here that WTC 7 was anything but a controlled demolition is pure bogus nonsense.

Wait - I thought you said it was arsonists. Even your (actual) boss Richard Gage says it was CD. It can't be arson AND CD. Pick one and stick with it.
Pro tip: Self contradictions can be rectified by being honest, and sticking with the facts. Try it.

The fact that the exterior of the building comes down in a symmetric free fall can't possibly have been caused by anything but controlled demolition by the simultaneous removal of all 24 core columns over a number of stories low in the building.

Which can only be done by explosives. Not arsonists. Two different things. So was it arson or CD?
Pro tip: You need to understand both are physically impossible at that site at that time.

The fact that the NIST model does not replicate the free fall or actual building condition during the failure and has severe exterior deformation, which is not observed in the actual collapse, along with it being discovered that those who authored the report needed to omit pertinent structural features to even make it superficially plausible, negates the NIST WTC 7 report as a viable explanation.

Except for that which was reported. I notice that you guys wait to add qualifiers into your theories until they've been addressed by proper experts. Why is that?

If WTC 7 had some form of demolition devices in it they had to be pre-positioned before Sept. 11, 2001. This means it was a planned event.

Well, since they didn't we're ok with that. If they DID, then it would stand to reason (well, for reasonable people) that it was connected with the rest of the day's events. I think you people need to go back and watch the events of the day. NYC was not the only place where doo-doo hit the fan, you know.
Pro tip: Honesty. It's aawweeesooommeee!

The horizontal propagation of the failure in WTC 1 (the North Tower) occurs in less than a second across the entire 98th floor which is virtually impossible to have happen naturally, and the fall of the upper section shows no sign of deceleration during its fall, meaning it could not be a naturally produced vertical propagation and that some form of demolition devices were removing the structural integrity below the falling mass above.

This is the texas sharpshooter fallacy, right? You do know planes hit those buildings? Serious answer please. How did the magical floating thermite explosive quiet bombs survive the impact and raging inferno?

Finally, the results of 911 were the use of the U.S. military to remove governments involved in oil and gas production and pipelines that were not friendly to certain U.S. fossil fuel corporations.

13 years later you can point to one?

Most sane and rational people have acknowledged that we have a carbon dioxide overabundance problem in the earth's atmosphere that is being caused by excessive consumption of fossil fuels, that this excessive carbon dioxide is preventing heat from being radiated back to space in the right proportion and causing a global temperature rise and climate change. They also recognize that the only way to curb it is to go to cleaner energy technologies and electric cars in massive ways to get to break even. We don't need to eliminate carbon dioxide in the atmosphere but only keep it to where the trees and vegetation can keep it in the proper balance.

la-la land time I see. None of that drivel can account for the fact that none of your asinine theories are even physically possible.

It is clear that 911 was done for oil corporation purposes and the sad part on top of that is that they were trying to get the public to deny climate change. Ultimately, climate change will lead to massive problems for everyone if it is not addressed.

And, driving a plane into the ground in Shanksville furthers this agenda how?

We will be watching.

And nobody will care. Ever.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Tony, I couldn't agree more with the second half of your post. At some point I have to say goodbye to the 911 argument. I mean really, look at all the posts about who da boss. I became an activist during the Vietnam War and demonstrated against it (and set myself up to move to Canada if I had a low draft lottery number). In the Reagan years I fought hard against torture and wrote a book about the Central American dictators. Then I ran the Colorado Peace Mission and raised money to fly people to Washington to lobby for peace and nuclear sanity. Then I ran an international prison meditation program. And now... rebutting 9/11 Truth theories?
A year ago I decided to just create a final video, stick around a few months to respond and answer questions, then say goodbye to 911. I got bogged down in my low tech skills re video editing, but I think it's soon time to slow down my posts here, teach myself the damn program, put out the video, and eventually move on.
I don't know where to go from after that, I know I will want to contribute in some way politically or socially as I have all my life. But your suggestion is really a good one. The whole fossil fuel infrastructure is making such a mess of our planet, and inspires wars and pollution. You're right, we can do better. Maybe some day you and I will be on the same side of something for a change.
Ziggi I'll respond when I have time, it's a full weekend.
Peace,
Chris

Chris, if you recognize and understand what I am saying about fossil fuels and climate change and that it is the oil companies who are in a position to change things then we are on the same page.

I am not saying we have to completely get rid of fossil fuels, but to limit their use ultimately to where we need them. This will allow us to husband what is left so it lasts longer, while we transition to biofuels for where liquid fuel will be necessary. You can't power planes or ships with electric only. They will always need liquid fuels or in the case of ships nuclear can work as it is inherently safe being in water for cooling if it sinks.

I propose all electric utilities who use steam turbine generators go the way that Florida Power and Light is doing with parabolic solar reflectors and natural gas to make steam for their turbines. Wind mills can replace coal mines in West Virginia and elsewhere while keeping more than enough jobs in the communities. West Virginia has a lot of hills and that is good for wind power as it reduces the friction and lets the wind speed pick up more so than over flat land.

I also don't think the actual people behind 911 (those with oil interests) were necessarily evil, but rather that they may have thought they had no other out. They should now realize there is and move in that direction. They can be forgiven for their blindness if they thought they were doing the right thing for humanity and did not realize there were viable alternatives in the 1990's when the 911 plan would have been formulated. However, they can not be forgiven once they know there are viable alternatives now in 2015 if they don't take them.

I do think a lot of what is said on here is to keep the conversation muddied so no action is ever taken. What I am doing is appealing to the human side of those making these decisions and bringing the alternatives and their viability to their attention. There is a better way and we are all ultimately in it together. Nobody will escape the consequences of climate change if we don't do what we can to get back to break even with carbon dioxide and wars for oil aren't right or smart if they aren't necessary.

I personally am somewhat done with arguing the minutia as it is clearly about energy and whether we stay mainly with fossil fuels or diversify and solve the carbon dioxide overabundance in the atmosphere problem. I hope those in control will do the right thing and pick the latter.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Are you getting the side plates mixed up with the stiffener plates.
Run the c79-44 girder through your expansion program and tell us whether or not the girder expands to become trapped on the inside of the side plate.

Yes it does walk off in the program because the side plates cause thermal distortion of the column because of uneven expansion.

My program is no where as as complex as NIST's but in a 3d thermal expansion the height of the column rises, and bows and deforms do to unequal thermal expansion of the side plates.

That is the key to understanding girder walk off.

 

[Animal]

Chris, if you recognize and understand what I am saying about fossil fuels and climate change and that it is the oil companies who are in a position to change things then we are on the same page.

I am not saying we have to completely get rid of fossil fuels, but to limit their use ultimately to where we need them. This will allow us to husband what is left so it lasts longer, while we transition to biofuels for where liquid fuel will be necessary. You can't power planes or ships with electric only. They will always need liquid fuels or in the case of ships nuclear can work as it is inherently safe being in water for cooling if it sinks.

I propose all electric utilities who use steam turbine generators go the way that Florida Power and Light is doing with parabolic solar reflectors and natural gas to make steam for their turbines. Wind mills can replace coal mines in West Virginia and elsewhere while keeping more than enough jobs in the communities. West Virginia has a lot of hills and that is good for wind power as it reduces the friction and lets the wind speed pick up more so than over flat land.

I also don't think the actual people behind 911 (those with oil interests) were necessarily evil, but rather that they may have thought they had no other out. They should now realize there is and move in that direction. They can be forgiven for their blindness if they thought they were doing the right thing for humanity and did not realize there were viable alternatives. However, they can not be forgiven once they know there are viable alternatives if they don't take them.

I do think a lot of what is said on here is to keep the conversation muddied so no action is ever taken. What I am doing is appealing to the human side of those making these decisions and bringing the alternatives and their viability to their attention. There is a better way and we are all ultimately in it together. Nobody will escape the consequences of climate change if we don't do what we can to get back to break even with carbon dioxide and wars for oil aren't right or smart if they aren't necessary.

I personally am somewhat done with arguing the minutia as it is clearly about energy and whether we stay mainly with fossil fuels or diversify and solve the carbon dioxide overabundance in the atmosphere problem. I hope those in control will do the right thing and pick the latter.

Wow...you keep digging the rabbit hole even deeper.

 

[NoahFence]

I personally am somewhat done with arguing the minutia as it is clearly about energy and whether we stay mainly with fossil fuels or diversify and solve the carbon dioxide overabundance in the atmosphere problem. I hope those in control will do the right thing and pick the latter.

Excellent!

So we'll be getting your theory on how the entire day unfolded, which is going to be different than 19 Terrorists + 4 planes?

Yes, Tony - 4 planes.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Wow...you keep digging the rabbit hole even deeper.

There is significant logic in what I am saying and your dismissal of it shows you to be a closed minded person with an agenda that isn't altruistic. It isn't hard to imagine you don't believe in God.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

Chris, if you recognize and understand what I am saying about fossil fuels and climate change and that it is the oil companies who are in a position to change things then we are on the same page.

I am not saying we have to completely get rid of fossil fuels, but to limit their use ultimately to where we need them. This will allow us to husband what is left so it lasts longer, while we transition to biofuels for where liquid fuel will be necessary. You can't power planes or ships with electric only. They will always need liquid fuels or in the case of ships nuclear can work as it is inherently safe being in water for cooling if it sinks.

I propose all electric utilities go the way that Florida Power and Light is doing with parabolic solar reflectors and natural gas to make steam for their turbines. Wind mills can replace coal mines in West Virginia and elsewhere while keeping more than enough jobs in the communities. West Virginia has a lot of hills and that is good for wind power as it reduces the friction and lets the wind speed pick up more so than over flat land.

I also don't think the actual people behind 911 (those with oil interests) were necessarily evil, but rather that they may have thought they had no other out. They should now realize there is and move in that direction. They can be forgiven for their blindness if they thought they were doing the right thing for humanity and did not realize there were viable alternatives. However, they can not be forgiven once they know there are viable alternatives if they don't take them.

I do think a lot of what is said on here is to keep the conversation muddied so no action is ever taken. What I am doing is appealing to the human side of those making these decisions and bringing the alternatives and their viability to their attention. There is a better way and we are all ultimately in it together. Nobody will escape the consequences of climate change if we don't do what we can to get back to break even with carbon dioxide and wars for oil aren't right or smart if they aren't necessary.

I personally am somewhat done with arguing the minutia as it is clearly about energy and whether we stay mainly with fossil fuels or diversify and solve the carbon dioxidoverabundance in the atmosphere problem. I hope those in control will do the right thing and pick the latter.

Wind mills will not work in West Virginia, Tony for the same reason the test mills failed around here, turbulence causing bearing chatter.
It's an engineering problem of wind mills in hills that no engineering team has solved,
This should be right up your alley as a mechanical engineer, so why have you been wasting time on ridiculous CD, instead of improving the world as you say you want to by solving real world problems?

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Wind mills will not work in West Virginia, Tony for the same reason the test mills failed around here, turbulence causing bearing chatter.
It's an engineering problem of wind mills in hills that no engineering team has solved,
This should be right up your alley as a mechanical engineer, so why have you been wasting time on ridiculous CD, instead of improving the world as you say you want to by solving real world problems?

The bearings and housings can be made rigid enough to avoid problems with turbulence.

Wind mills designed several decades ago had fatigue problems and it was learned that they need to be designed to avoid resonance and fatigue like aircraft. I believe that has been done and don't think you are as up to date on it as you suppose you are.

Getting the people in control to move in the right direction is just as much a part of solving real world problems as generating a design that does it too. If they won't use the design what's the use?

 

[pgimeno]

Who do you think Chris Mohr's bosses are?

The bosses of Reverend Chris Mohr? Hmmm...

 

[pgimeno]

It is clear that 911 was done for oil corporation purposes

What do the SEC investigations have to do with that? Why did those same people demolish WTC7?

 

[gerrycan]

Duplicate post

 

[Animal]

There is significant logic in what I am saying and your dismissal of it shows you to be a closed minded person with an agenda that isn't altruistic. It isn't hard to imagine you don't believe in God.

Only in your mind is their "significant logic" Dismissing such fantasies is not being closed minded, it is accepting reality, some troofers have refused to do for 13+ years, Imagine what you want.

You keep digging the hole deeper

 

[Grizzly Bear]

There is significant logic in what I am saying and your dismissal of it shows you to be a closed minded person with an agenda that isn't altruistic. It isn't hard to imagine you don't believe in God.

Several people have outlined some of the prima fascia problems with your arguments... including your literal take on a Bazantian model to real-world collapse mechanisms. The funny thing is, had you limited your criticism scope to the same as Bazant's you wouldn't be criticized for similar blunt issues. The "mistake", "lie", or "judgements" turning point was misapplying the scope which was clearly iterated on the preface. These are easily corrected problems that you continually stack on top of each other compounding the size and scale of the errors....

Thus, a lot of the criticism you face are of your making, and completely, unnecessarily so...

 

[gerrycan]

Yes it does walk off in the program because the side plates cause thermal distortion of the column because of uneven expansion.

My program is no where as as complex as NIST's but in a 3d thermal expansion the height of the column rises, and bows and deforms do to unequal thermal expansion of the side plates.

That is the key to understanding girder walk off.

So how much of an expansion gap is there between the girder and the column face?

 

[DGM]

It isn't hard to imagine you don't believe in God.

 

[Matthew Cline]

In fact there was no investigation at all initially, Rudy Giuliani's minions just started getting rid of the steel. This also implies they knew why/how it came down.

So, instead of photographing unusual looking pieces of steel, they should have kept all the unusual pieces in a warehouse? Kept all of the steel in a warehouse? Left it all on-site so as to not disturb the evidence? What?

 

[tsig]

I would think you are aware that there was a large Securities and Exchange Commission office on the 12th and 13th floors of WTC 7 with a significant number of paper intensive case files against some big players. These cases were never resurrected.

Of course, a number of individuals here have speculated that they could have just used paper shredders. That notion isn't even worth commenting on.

Any names of those players? Case numbers?

Was getting rid of those papers the primary reason for the building demolition or was that just a collateral benefit?