Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

[Reality Check]

The Sun blasts matter off it's SURFACE with exploding double layer ...

Sorry, Haig, but that looks lie a Thunderbolts lie yet again.
Solar flares and CME are blasted from above the Sun's PHOTOSPHERE by magnetic reconnection. Strong stuff real science about the Sun and actual electromagnetism !

 

[tusenfem]

Just as an aside, about Alfvén's "unipolar inductor" from the book Cosmic Plasma [1981]



This part comes after Hannes Alfvén has discussed the current systems in the Earth's magnetosphere and he moves to the heliosphere.

111.4 .3. PROPERTIES OF THE HELIOSPHERIC CIRCUIT
The model described above has the following characteristics, which should be compared with observed properties of the Sun and the heliosphere.
The central body acts as a unipolar inductor and the e .m.f. is produced in region A (see Figure III .7) . The mechanical force on the solar atmosphere dF = I ds x B tends to decelerate the rotation of the central body . The current transfers angular momentum from the central body to the surrounding plasma . Hence, we have a decelerating force applied to the solar atmosphere in the polar region . This should produce a non-uniform
rotation of the Sun of the type which is observed (angular velocity decreasing with increasing latitude . Whether this interpretation is the correct quantitative explanation of the non-uniform rotation is an open question.
In region Bl , the currents are field-aligned . It seems to be a general rule of cosmic physics that field-aligned currents frequently manifest themselves as luminous filaments (II.4) . If the current in Bl is spread over an extended region, we should expect filaments. Equatorial streamers in the solar corona may be explained in this way.
Similarly, in the polar region, the vertical currents near the solar surface may produce the polarplumes in the solar corona.
The model predicts that there should be currents near the axis strong enough to match the current in the equatorial plane. Such currents should be observed when a spacecraft is sent to the high latitude regions . It is an open question to what extent they flow very close to the axis . They may be distributed over a large region and may in part flow at medium latitudes.
Electrostatic double layers (and/or mirror produced voltage drops) may be formed, especially by the axial currents . This means that we may have regions D far away from the Sun, where energy is released without any observable indication of how it is transferred . This is analogous to the release of energy in the double layers of the auroral zones . If a double layer is formed far out from the Sun, it may emit radio waves or plasma waves which could be detected . A possible application of this is discussed
in the next section.

(my bold)
The emission of radio waves by double layers was the topic of my PhD thesis, actually.

 

[Haig]

You mean mythology. Like I said, you're stuck of figuring out why Zeus turned into a swan to seduce Leda, and a bull to seduce Europa. That's not eyewitness testimony, and we don't need to figure out the reason, because it didn't happen.

Hell, eyewitness testimony directly from the actual eyewitnesses in person isn't even reliable, Haig. And you don't have anything close to that.

You need to deal with this IN THE BEGINNING

No, I don't see how a blast capable of hurling a rock from the surface of Mars into outer space wouldn't also reduce that same rock into rubble.

By inducing charge and the opposite polarity in shallow layers of the crust possibly ? Thus breaking it up and blasting electric comet sized rocks into highly eccentric orbits ?

Right, so when Thornhill says the ions formed close to the comet are negatively charged, and then turn out to be positive, and caused by photo-dissociation, this is a win for ECH, because positive and negative are essentially interchangable terms?

If you'd even bothered to read that link you provided (and I don't know who the bloke is, or what he's on about, and it isn't peer reviewed, just somebody's view), then you would have seen; "Instead, *all* positive charges in objects and in circuits are created by protons. Removing an electron just reveals the positive charge which was already hidden in the atom." And that is what photo-dissociation does. Removes an electron. Google it. Leaving, yes, you got it, a POSITIVE ion. Which is the opposite of what the numpty Thornhill is saying.

Have it your way

So much wrong, Haig .
Ben Franklin's labels of charges are correct - the carriers of charges in metals are electrons!
But the direction of conventional current is arbitrarily defined as the same direction as positive charges flow.

You cite a criticism of K-6 textbooks for 11 year old school children !
BEN FRANKLIN SHOULD HAVE SAID ELECTRONS ARE POSITIVE? Wrong.
Franklin's labels make it easier to understand a list of 7 misconceptions 11 year old children might get about electricity from K-6 textbooks.

Yip, that's the level I seemed to be dealing with RC

Maybe the moderators will allow me this question as it relates to Haig's "Electric comet's are needed because the electric universe is true" line of reasoning.

If so, Haig, would you be so kind as to explain what STOPS nuclear fusion from occuring in the sun given the following well-experimentally known facts?
1 We know the sun is mainly hydrogen with a large amount of helium due to spectral analysis and its weight/volume.
2. We know in great detail how gravity works and how much gravimetric pressure is exerted in the center of the sun
3. We know in great detail how much pressure needs to be applied to hydrogen to get it to undergo nuclear fusion (and have some blown up islands to prove it)
4. We know how much energy a fusion reaction gives.
5. With the previous four points we know how much energy would be produced by the sun if it were powered only by nuclear fusion.
6. The energy coming from the sun conforms what would be expected from 5.

Given all that, for your electric sun to be true (which you claim is needed for electric comets), what mechanisms stop the nuclear fusion in the sun to such an extent that the electrically generated power is exactly the same as the amount we would expect from a fusion only sun?
Is all nuclear fusion stopped? Part?

Let's be clear the evidence is in favor of the Electric Sun hypnosis. There is no real confirmation of any 15 million degree temp at the core or nuclear fusion taking place.

The temperature gradient that is actually measured is going the wrong way. All the main action is in Sun's atmosphere particularly the Corona where fusion is understood to be taking place. Nothing much is happening at the center of the Sun.

That's my take (briefly) on what I've read of the Electric Sun hypothesis.

Sorry, Haig, but that looks lie a Thunderbolts lie yet again.
Solar flares and CME are blasted from above the Sun's PHOTOSPHERE by magnetic reconnection. Strong stuff real science about the Sun and actual electromagnetism !

Not according to Hannes Alfvén !

Just as an aside, about Alfvén's "unipolar inductor" from the book Cosmic Plasma [1981]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_254845575603cc889c.jpg[/qimg]

This part comes after Hannes Alfvén has discussed the current systems in the Earth's magnetosphere and he moves to the heliosphere.



(my bold)
The emission of radio waves by double layers was the topic of my PhD thesis, actually.

Thanks for posting this tusenfem

 

[Sol88]

Well Duh - that is some basic physics of comets, Sol88.
We are not so stupid as to think that comets are rocks or any of the other delusions in the electric comet idea.
No matter how many times Haig quote mines the internet for the words "rock" in the context of comets, we will not become ignorant about science.
No matter how many times you or Haig link to the Thunderbolts cranks, we will not become ignorant about science.
No matter how many times you or Haig show that you are incapable of understanding fairly basic science (e.g. the measured densities of comets), we will not become ignorant about science.
No mater how many times Haig sticks with the delusion that Mars is a comet, we will not become ignorant that Mars is a planet !

Still no surface "ice" RC?

So it HAS to be subsurface to power the "jets" and to stay collimated there HAS to be nozels and some pressure behind them....so how's that coming along RC?


Seems there (ESA) are slowy coming around step by step and telling us comets are indeed an electrical phenomena.

As the threads title is all about ELECTRIC COMETS and you KNOW they are not, why do you persist in arguing with nutters, cranks and deluded people like me?

 

[tusenfem]

Seems there (ESA) are slowy coming around step by step and telling us comets are indeed an electrical phenomena.

I assume that you mean that Rosetta researchers are finding interesting and sometimes surprising (e.g. the secondary electron impact dissociation as observed by ALICE) plasma physical effects. Two examples of recently published papers by the Rosetta Plasma Consortium:

The Rosetta Ion and Electron Sensor (IES) measurement of the development of pickup ions from comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Spatial distribution of low-energy plasma around comet 67P/CG from Rosetta measurements

However, this all contradicts basically everything that the ech is claiming.

 

[Ziggurat]

You need to deal with this IN THE BEGINNING

No I don't. This is religion. You're spouting religious beliefs. But I don't care about your religious beliefs. This is a science forum.

By inducing charge and the opposite polarity in shallow layers of the crust possibly ?

No, it's not possible. If the rock has accumulated sufficient charge to repel it from a planet at escape velocity, that charge will also be sufficient to rip that rock apart into small pieces from self-repulsion. Fracturing rock is MUCH easier than accelerating it to escape velocity.

The temperature gradient that is actually measured is going the wrong way. All the main action is in Sun's atmosphere particularly the Corona where fusion is understood to be taking place. Nothing much is happening at the center of the Sun.

You are deeply confused about the difference between temperature, energy, and power. The corona may be at a higher temperature, but it is radiating FAR less power than the photosphere is radiating. The source of that power is, in fact MUST be, below the photosphere. Thermodynamics permits nothing else.

But then, you don't understand thermodynamics either, so no doubt this will be lost on you too.

That's my take (briefly) on what I've read of the Electric Sun hypothesis.

Ah yes, the Juergens model of the sun. The one which would explode. We've been over this, Haig. The calculations are not ambiguous, they're conclusive. The Juergens model is ridiculous. You claim that I'm wrong, but cannot show how. Nobody from the EU side can.

 

[jonesdave116]

No I don't. This is religion. You're spouting religious beliefs. But I don't care about your religious beliefs. This is a science forum.

Which is why none of us will ever convince him he's wrong. Thornhill, Talbott et al can't possibly be wrong, despite far more qualified and accomplished scientists showing that they are. They are his high priests. One does not question their teachings. And especially not that of the Archbishop, Velikovsky!
Point out that Thornhill is wrong due to eccentrically orbiting asteroids? Nah, just invent an initial charge on the comet, despite Thornhill never having said this, and it actually contradicting his own words about charges equalising in distant orbits.
Show that he cocked up by predicting negative ions close to the comet, when observation shows this to be wrong? Nah, just decide that there is really no difference between positive and negative!

No, it's not possible. If the rock has accumulated sufficient charge to repel it from a planet at escape velocity, that charge will also be sufficient to rip that rock apart into small pieces from self-repulsion. Fracturing rock is MUCH easier than accelerating it to escape velocity.

I did some rough calculations a few days back, and worked out that the energy required to lift 5 x 10^13 kg (that's what 67P should weigh, if it's rock) to escape velocity is about 3.0 x 10^21 J. I may be wrong, but searching for comparable energies in various volcanoes, impacts etc, I think it was roughly the same as the Toba eruption. All imparted within a fraction of a second! Highly likely.

Edit: the above is to attain escape velocity on Earth. It would be lower on Mars, but not enough to make an appreciable difference. That is, it'd still be vapourised to all intents and purposes.

 

[jonesdave116]

Still no surface "ice" RC?

Far more evidence for ice (CO2 & H20) than there is for anything electrical happening. No glows, no discharges, nothing of any note picked up by the instruments that would pick up such things. So I'd say, on balance, I know which team I'd rather be on.

 

[phunk]

How can a chunk of rock be blasted electrically from the crust of a planet and NOT receive an initial charge ?

I think this is a better question.

 

[phunk]

Well grmcdorman sussed the obvious. The Sun blasts matter off it's SURFACE with exploding double layers Strong stuff that E/M force

The sun blasts PLASMA off, it does magically lift mountain sized solid objects without smashing them to rubble.

 

[phunk]

By inducing charge and the opposite polarity in shallow layers of the crust possibly ?

That wouldn't lift it, that would hold it down. You know opposite charges attract, right?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Let's be clear the evidence is in favor of the Electric Sun hypnosis. There is no real confirmation of any 15 million degree temp at the core or nuclear fusion taking place.

The temperature gradient that is actually measured is going the wrong way. All the main action is in Sun's atmosphere particularly the Corona where fusion is understood to be taking place. Nothing much is happening at the center of the Sun.

That's my take (briefly) on what I've read of the Electric Sun hypothesis.

What confirmation of nuclear fusion in the sun's core would you dispute then?
Do you dispute the pressure in the sun's core, or the fact that hydrogen can fuse at that pressure?
Both of which are just the logical result of known experiments. We know how much force the gravity of a sphere of that much hydrogen would exert in the core and we have seen that at that pressure fusion occurs.
So, why would it NOT occur?

 

[Haig]

The sun blasts PLASMA off, it does magically lift mountain sized solid objects without smashing them to rubble.

Thanks for agreeing that it may be possible ! That IS what you meant to say, right ?

That wouldn't lift it, that would hold it down. You know opposite charges attract, right?

Opposite charge to the plasma thunderbolt causing the blast and the same charge as the bulk of the crust of Mars. Like Hannes Alfvén exploding double layers !

It's interesting to note mainstream speculation on Phobos and Deimos being blasted from the surface of Mars after finding material from those moons are the same as Mars.

Martian moon Phobos may have formed by catastrophic blast

Transfer of Impact Ejecta Material from the Surface of Mars to Phobos and Deimos

FORMATION OF PHOBOS AND DEIMOS VIA A GIANT IMPACT PDF

 

[Haig]

What confirmation of nuclear fusion in the sun's core would you dispute then?
Do you dispute the pressure in the sun's core, or the fact that hydrogen can fuse at that pressure?
Both of which are just the logical result of known experiments. We know how much force the gravity of a sphere of that much hydrogen would exert in the core and we have seen that at that pressure fusion occurs.
So, why would it NOT occur?

That's right ! From what I've read.

Has there been any fusion done here on Earth ? Give a source if you claim it has.

 

[Ziggurat]

Has there been any fusion done here on Earth ? Give a source if you claim it has.

Wow. Just... wow. Do you not know what a hydrogen bomb is?

 

[Haig]

Wow. Just... wow. Do you not know what a hydrogen bomb is?

Yip, but I was thinking of fusion power I don't think that has been achieved in a continuous process here on Earth ?

 

[Ziggurat]

Yip, but I was thinking of fusion power I don't think that has been achieved in a continuous process here on Earth ?

Producing controlled fusion is not the problem. We've been doing that for decades. Hell, you can even do it with table top devices. The problem is getting more useable power out than you need to start the reaction. But the fact that we have a tough time isn't relevant to stellar fusion. The sun's core is at far higher pressure than we can contain, and the core is also very well insulated so that the rate of power loss per unit volume is actually very low, far lower than we can achieve.

 

[ben m]

By inducing charge and the opposite polarity in shallow layers of the crust possibly ? Thus breaking it up and blasting electric comet sized rocks into highly eccentric orbits ?

Lord love a duck. "Blasting" things into "highly eccentric orbits"?

Have you ever thought about what delta-V you'd need to "blast" something from an inner-planet circular orbit onto a comet-like orbit? You're talking about tens of kilometers per second. (Halley's Comet was going 70 km/s when it passed Earth.) That's ten or twenty times the speed of sound in rock---i.e., far faster than the fastest shock wave you can imagine.

In other words, the laws of physics say you can't "blast" rocks from Mars orbit into comet-like orbits. Juergens (or whoever is claiming this) is using cartoon physics. Cartoon physics can do anything, I guess.

 

[Dancing David]

I think that it is appropriate to report posts that are not about electric comets for being off topic.

 

[JeanTate]

Yip, but I was thinking of fusion power I don't think that has been achieved in a continuous process here on Earth ?

Let's see if I can follow ...

• blasting mountains off the Earth, intact, with exploding double layers has not been achieved (by EU fundies, or anyone else for that matter) here on Earth;
• producing copious, continuous, neutrino emission from 3000-4000K hydrogen plasmas has not been achieved (by EU fundies, or anyone else for that matter) here on Earth;
• creating EDM discharges (sufficient to create craters ~1m in diameter, and bigger) without also producing magnetic fields >a few nT and without also generating strong radio and microwave emission has not been achieved (by EU fundies, or anyone else for that matter) here on Earth;
• (I'll stop here; it's a very long list).

Forget double layers; central to EU dogma is double standards!

But hey, in religion you don't ever have to claim to be consistent ...