Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

[JeanTate]

So,

67P C-G:
Aphelion: 5.68 AU
Perihelion: 1.24 AU
Eccentricity: 0.64
Period: 6.44 yr
Volume: 21.4 km^3
Mass: 10^13 kg
Density: 0.47 g cm^-3

4179 Toutatis
Aphelion: 4.12 AU
Perihelion: 0.94 AU
Eccentricity: 0.63
Period: 4.02 yr
Volume: 23.8 km^3
Mass: 5 x 10^13 kg
Density: 2.1 g cm^-3

Anybody see a problem here?

ETA:
Just for clarity, 4179 Toutatis is an S-type stony asteroid, consisting primarily of silicates.

This is very interesting, jonesdave116.

Would you mind citing your source(s) for the orbital and physical parameters of 67P C-G and 4179 Toutatis? That way any reader can check your inputs, for themselves.

"The changing electrical stress on a comet is due to its highly elliptical orbit. The Sun has a weak radial electrical field. A comet spends most of its time far from the Sun and becomes adjusted to the voltage there. As it zips in for a quick fly-by of the sun, the voltage and charge density of the solar plasma changes rapidly, generating increasing electrical stress on the comet. When the electrical stress is high enough, the comet¹s plasma sheath lights up to form the classic cometary spectacle. The comet nucleus begins discharging and the resulting cathode jets sweep back to form a tail that is "blown" in a direction aligned with the Sun¹s electric field.

The same thing would happen to an object of any size on a cometary orbit through the Sun's electric field. If the Earth, which is a charged body, were on a cometary orbit, its magnetosphere would glow. Similarly, the objects forming the cometary knots of the Helix Nebula are responding to the strong electric field centered on the star outside the picture at bottom right."

A quote from Thunderbolts, in a previous post by Haig. My bold.

And has been pointed out - many times, by RealityCheck, Dancing David, and many others - a very large number of asteroids have 'comet-like' orbits, yet are not observed to have comet-like tails at any point in their orbits.

Then there are the comets which have orbits that would seem - from these quotes - to not be capable of becoming comets. For example, take the many comets with low e, in this list of comets ... 158P/Kowal-LINEAR, as one example, has an eccentricity of just 0.031!

Compare this with Mercury's, 0.206 ... by the logic in the EU quotes, Mercury should be a far more intensely active comet than 158P/Kowal-LINEAR.

Don't you just love DIRECT EVIDENCE?

 

[jonesdave116]

Once again, if EU was true, those that understand it would potentially be able to solve the earths energy crisis permanently, create a new way of (space)flight and get obscenely rich in the process by exploiting that knowledge. Why are they not doing that but putting up youtube video's?

I suspect, because a) the high priests of this religion know that it is complete rubbish, and b) due to this, and their lack of scientific ability, their only hope of making a quick buck from it is to sell books, DVDs and conference tickets to poor deluded souls like Haig, who don't have the scientific ability to see through the scam.

 

[JeanTate]

So who is the author of these Misconception pages, sschirott?
This is probably Susan Schirott. No information that is easily available about her.
Judging by the latest post she is either ignorant or deluded - it is a mindless parroting of a "Grand Canyon is electrical" video from a professional photographer !
Anyone who is not in denial of science could find the scientific explanation of the Grand Canyon - basically a river winds across a plain that gradually rises up abut 2 miles into a plateau while the river erodes into a canyon.
The video is likely to be an ignorant of geology photographer pointing at features and going "ohhh electricity"!

The "Misconception pages" do seem rather full of numpty-like material, don't they?

One other thing which Haig may not have appreciated: unlike here in ISF - where he is free to post - no comments on, or discussion of, any of these "Misconceptions" is permitted. This is consistent with the (fundamentalist) religious cult-like nature of "the EU".

 

[jonesdave116]

This is very interesting, jonesdave116.

Would you mind citing your source(s)

Ahh, that would be the scientific goldmine that is Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4179_Toutatis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko

It is amazing that within a handful of minutes of reading Haig's quote I was able to find this info, having decided to look for asteroids with eccentric orbits, and well constrained physical parameters. This was the asteroid visited by Chang'e 2 a little while back. Amazing that none of the faithful over at Thunderdolts have never done the same, and started to question those who shouldn't be questioned.

 

[jonesdave116]

In comment #601, which I'm no longer able to edit, I made reference to Harvey Rutt's calculations and estimates on the Rosetta blog. I've finally found the original comment (I'd previously taken a screenshot), and it is here: http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2015/04/09/giada-investigates-comets-fluffy-dust-grains/#comment-432278

 

[Sol88]

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Once again, if EU was true, those that understand it would potentially be able to solve the earths energy crisis permanently, create a new way of (space)flight and get obscenely rich in the process by exploiting that knowledge. Why are they not doing that but putting up youtube video's?

I suspect, because a) the high priests of this religion know that it is complete rubbish, and b) due to this, and their lack of scientific ability, their only hope of making a quick buck from it is to sell books, DVDs and conference tickets to poor deluded souls like Haig, who don't have the scientific ability to see through the scam.

Ummmm.....we have!!!

Electrodynamic tether


so what's the hold up?

 

[Sol88]

So still sticking to the sublimation?

 

[Haig]

Surface tension doesn't matter at large scales because the surface-to-volume ratio drops as objects get larger. That's why surface tension is irrelevant to, say, large ocean waves. The droplets seen in those EDM experiment form because of surface tension, because they are tiny and surface tension is important at those scales. Domes inside craters do not form because of surface tension, because those domes are large and surface tension is irrelevant. Note that we do not have to decide how craters are formed in order to know this. It is basic and obvious, but your link still got it wrong, and you didn't even notice.

So you think Ziggurat but you still misunderstand

check out the videos below

Now, about those black and white photos: what is the material in each of those photos? How can you tell? This is your claim, so I can't answer this one for you.

Mmm they look like bunny rabbits

To give a opinion of what material they may be you need context and scale. Without those it's just a frivolous game !

With context and scale ESA have said comet 67P was rock like !

Others say it plainer than that ... rock / rocky (my bold) ...

Eerie Comet Landscape Revealed by Rosetta Spacecraft Photos
"taken by the Rosetta spacecraft during its closest approach to the 2.5-mile-wide (4 kilometers) space rock. The photos emanate an eerie stillness on the rocky, lifeless surface."

Photos: Europe's Rosetta Comet Mission in Pictures
"This image of the rocky, lifeless surface of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko, taken by the NavCam instrument on the Rosetta spacecraft on Oct. 27, 2014, and released on May 26, 2015"

I'm no expert, but I'd have thought something powerful enough to blast away as colossal an amount of rock as the Grand Canyon, not to mention Valles Marineris, would leave behind a geomagnetic signature. Unless this rock was just peacefully levitated away to somewhere else without any thermal shock and associated melting. Valles Marineris seems to be in a particularly non-magnetised area of Mars.

Have you got the span of attention to look at the EU case for the electrical scaring of Mars ?

Episode 2 Symbols of an Alien Sky: The Lightning Scarred Planet, Mars (Full Documentary) 1:23:27

or just dip in from here ..

EDM evidence

Surface etching

Electrical events are scalable

 

[JeanTate]

[...]

Have you got the span of attention to look at the EU case for the electrical scaring of Mars ?

Episode 2 Symbols of an Alien Sky: The Lightning Scarred Planet, Mars (Full Documentary) 1:23:27

or just dip in from here ..

EDM evidence

Surface etching

Electrical events are scalable

More copypasta Haig?

Got any links to primary sources, such as published papers (in relevant, peer-reviewed journals)?

Science by numpty-videos? Good for promoting the anti-science values of a (fundamentalist) religious cult I guess; not much good for planning, designing, operating, and publishing-the-results from space probes though.

Why are the proponents of the ech so parasitic?

 

[Ziggurat]

To give a opinion of what material they may be you need context and scale.

In other words, you can't tell. The black and white pictures don't provide sufficient information to determine composition. You need other information to make that determination.

Let me clue you in, Haig: you need more information than the pictures to make that determination about comets, too.

With context and scale ESA have said comet 67P was rock like !

Not based on the pictures, they didn't. And ice at low temperatures is indeed rock like.

Others say it plainer than that ... rock / rocky (my bold) ...

Again confusing press reports with the actual science. Do you ever tire of such amateur efforts?

Have you got the span of attention to look at the EU case for the electrical scaring of Mars ?

I have no interest in sitting through your ridiculous YouTube links. Your written links are bad enough, and filled with errors. There's no reason to think your YouTube links will be any better, they'll just waste more of my time.

 

[Haig]

In other words, you can't tell. The black and white pictures don't provide sufficient information to determine composition. You need other information to make that determination.

Let me clue you in, Haig: you need more information than the pictures to make that determination about comets, too.



Not based on the pictures, they didn't. And ice at low temperatures is indeed rock like.



Again confusing press reports with the actual science. Do you ever tire of such amateur efforts?



I have no interest in sitting through your ridiculous YouTube links. Your written links are bad enough, and filled with errors. There's no reason to think your YouTube links will be any better, they'll just waste more of my time.

Have it your way but you are missing a lot

It's thought the source of the majority of electric comets recent origin is the electrically scarred planet Mars according to EU / PC understanding.

Also it played a huge part in sparking the ancient myths and religions we have today.

Pity you can't be bothered

 

[Ziggurat]

Have it your way but you are missing a lot

No, Haig, I'm really not.

It's thought the source of the majority of electric comets recent origin is the electrically scarred planet Mars according to EU / PC understanding.

And I should care what a bunch of scientifically illiterate Velokovskians believe... why?

Also it played a huge part in sparking the ancient myths and religions we have today.

Well, no. Rather, the ancient myths have sparked modern myths, and you believe them. You keep on yammering about why Zeus turned into a swan to seduce Leda, but a bull for Europa, but the reasons don't matter: none of it is real.

 

[jonesdave116]

Have it your way but you are missing a lot

It's thought the source of the majority of electric comets recent origin is the electrically scarred planet Mars according to EU / PC understanding.

Also it played a huge part in sparking the ancient myths and religions we have today.

Pity you can't be bothered

Electrical scarring would likely leave behind a geomagnetic signature. Valles Marineris, not to mention most of the northern hemisphere of the planet, shows sod all evidence of such. The most likely mechanism for its formation is due to crustal stretching from the enormous Tharsis bulge. Later this would have been added to by liquid water flowing in the valley. Age determinations of the canyon, from the crater record, estimate it to have been formed around 3.5 Ga. Believe it or not, the only mythology it could have worked itself into at that time is that of the prokaryotes and maybe the 'group mind' of stromatolites!
Yet again, neo-Velikovskian garbage, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, and perfectly good mainstream hypotheses, backed by observation to explain it.
Has anyone ever seen electrical scarring occurring on a planet? What are the currents, voltages, charges, temperatures involved? What would happen given those things? Is it caused from within or on the planet? Or is it down to Thor throwing down a mighty thunderbolt?

 

[Dancing David]

"The changing electrical stress on a comet is due to its highly elliptical orbit. The Sun has a weak radial electrical field. A comet spends most of its time far from the Sun and becomes adjusted to the voltage there. As it zips in for a quick fly-by of the sun, the voltage and charge density of the solar plasma changes rapidly, generating increasing electrical stress on the comet. When the electrical stress is high enough, the comet¹s plasma sheath lights up to form the classic cometary spectacle. The comet nucleus begins discharging and the resulting cathode jets sweep back to form a tail that is "blown" in a direction aligned with the Sun¹s electric field.

The same thing would happen to an object of any size on a cometary orbit through the Sun's electric field. If the Earth, which is a charged body, were on a cometary orbit, its magnetosphere would glow. Similarly, the objects forming the cometary knots of the Helix Nebula are responding to the strong electric field centered on the star outside the picture at bottom right."

A quote from Thunderbolts, in a previous post by Haig. My bold.
So,

67P C-G:
Aphelion: 5.68 AU
Perihelion: 1.24 AU
Eccentricity: 0.64
Period: 6.44 yr
Volume: 21.4 km^3
Mass: 10^13 kg
Density: 0.47 g cm^-3

4179 Toutatis
Aphelion: 4.12 AU
Perihelion: 0.94 AU
Eccentricity: 0.63
Period: 4.02 yr
Volume: 23.8 km^3
Mass: 5 x 10^13 kg
Density: 2.1 g cm^-3

Anybody see a problem here?

ETA:
Just for clarity, 4179 Toutatis is an S-type stony asteroid, consisting primarily of silicates.

This sort of thing has been pointed out before, there are many bodies in the solar system which have the same sort of orbits as comets and spend the same amount of time in similar regions of space. yet they show no comas...

Especially when it comes to the five asteroid belt objects that do show comas and the hundred that do not.

Usually the 'dark mode' fairy is invoked.

 

[Haig]

Electrical scarring would likely leave behind a geomagnetic signature. Valles Marineris, not to mention most of the northern hemisphere of the planet, shows sod all evidence of such. The most likely mechanism for its formation is due to crustal stretching from the enormous Tharsis bulge. Later this would have been added to by liquid water flowing in the valley. Age determinations of the canyon, from the crater record, estimate it to have been formed around 3.5 Ga. Believe it or not, the only mythology it could have worked itself into at that time is that of the prokaryotes and maybe the 'group mind' of stromatolites!
Yet again, neo-Velikovskian garbage, for which there is no evidence whatsoever, and perfectly good mainstream hypotheses, backed by observation to explain it.
Has anyone ever seen electrical scarring occurring on a planet? What are the currents, voltages, charges, temperatures involved? What would happen given those things? Is it caused from within or on the planet? Or is it down to Thor throwing down a mighty thunderbolt?

You seem to claim mainstream science has a good hypothesis on the puzzles of Mars.

Not when I last looked

NASA Mars Rover Opportunity Reveals Geological Mystery

"They seem to be crunchy on the outside, and softer in the middle," Squyres said. "They are different in concentration. They are different in structure. They are different in composition. They are different in distribution. So, we have a wonderful geological puzzle in front of us. We have multiple working hypotheses, and we have no favorite hypothesis at this time. It's going to take a while to work this out, so the thing to do now is keep an open mind and let the rocks do the talking."

Science Theme: Landscape Evolution

A review of existing images of Mars reveals a diverse landscape. In some instances, such as around volcanoes and in valleys, a casual glance suggests the features are much like those here on Earth. Closer inspection, however, often confirms differences in scale and or subtle characteristics relative to their more familiar terrestrial counterparts.

These same images also reveal a Mars that is often very different form the Earth. Some locations are marked by huge jumbles of blocks forming chaotic terrain, whereas others are buried beneath blankets of dust. Bizarre “thumbprint,” “Swiss cheese,” and other surface textures also occur.

10 Unsolved Martian Mysteries

For decades, humanity has been launching missions to Mars, in hopes of making sense of the enigma that is our solar system's most Earth-like planet. And as with all good mysteries, many of our investigations have simply led to more questions.

Mars' Geological Oddities

Bell also sees a serious side to those whimsical sightings. “The first impression I get from the Mars pictures is that the place looks familiar. Then I take a closer look and realize, wow, this place is fundamentally different. We see crazy protrusions and weirdly carved surfaces, almost Dr. Seuss-like — things that tend not to get preserved [permanently] on Earth,” he says. The juxtaposition of exotic-looking forms in an ordinary-looking setting gets the mind going, “and of course, as humans, we like to see faces and people and structures and geometric forms all over the place.”

Strange Terrain

The Red Planet abounds with geologic oddities. Here are some of our favorites (in no particular order).

1. Mystery Mounds - Bright mounds sporting central depressions (in false color).

2. Spiders from Mars - Escaping underground gas carves the ground into these spidery shapes.

3. The Flying V's - Sand, wind and topography created these figures.

4. Martian Forests - Darker, cascading sands create the illusion of trees.

5. Dust Devils - Dust devils leave tracks on Mars, just as they do on Earth.

6. Blueberry Spherules - “Blueberries,” ancient mineral deposits about an eighth of an inch wide, dot many areas.

7. Hole in Mars - This “skylight,” about 115 feet across, formed on the volcano Pavonis Mons when underground lava flows dried up, leaving the ground unsupported.

8. Brain Terrain - Even though we know they’re mostly water ice, these shapes can’t be explained by scientists.

9. Raised Ridges - Maybe these largely unexplained features resulted from ancient ocean activity?

10. Shapely Sand - Winds still blow these crescent-shaped dunes around.

Maybe you should think again jonesdave116 ?

Here try to grasp this approach ...

Scars Of The Planetary Wars

Numerous probes have sent back images of decimated planets and moons. Every moon of the gas giants Jupiter and Saturn presents violently sculpted surfaces, precisely the opposite of what astronomers had expected of small bodies that had been "cold and dead" for billions of years. Scientists remain baffled by the stark surface features on both Mars and Venus, the two planets that figure most prominently in Velikovsky's reconstruction. The chasm of the Martian Valles Marineris would swallow hundreds of Grand Canyons, and would stretch from San Francisco to New York. Its very presence defies every expectation of planetary scientists. The planet Venus, a super heated cauldron with a surface temperature of nine hundred degrees Fahrenheit, has been completely resurfaced by forces the specialists still struggle to comprehend.

Consider, for example, this simple rille on our moon, shown on the left above. When geologists looked at the picture, they hastily identified it as a channel cut by flowing lava. They did not stop to realize that the "tributary" of the primary channel shows a feature that is NEVER true of flowing liquid. The "tributary" connects with the channel at BOTH ENDS! In electrical discharge, however, this is not uncommon, as seen in the picture on the right * a tract left by an electric arc on a dusted metallic surface.

But there is much more to this. Electric arcs can traverse a surface in ways that are inconceivable for water -- disregarding elevation. This mystery of lunar rilles was never resolved; they incessantly travel up and down! An extraordinary example of this enigma is the Baltis Vallis on Venus, extending at least 6800 kilometers across the planet's surface. Scientists say it MUST be a lava flow, but are mystified as to how it retained a consistent width (between 2 and 5 kilometers) along its entire length. But even more mystifying is the vertical profile of Baltis Vallis, which moves UPHILL and DOWNHILL dozens of times, with an incomprehensible range of 2 kilometers from its highest to lowest points. (See Venus and the River Styx.)

Now look again at the picture of the electric arc above. Notice that down the center of the primary channel, there is a virtually continuous stream of small pits. A traveling electric arc is the only phenomenon known to produce this feature.

That should make you reconsider

This sort of thing has been pointed out before, there are many bodies in the solar system which have the same sort of orbits as comets and spend the same amount of time in similar regions of space. yet they show no comas...

Especially when it comes to the five asteroid belt objects that do show comas and the hundred that do not.

Usually the 'dark mode' fairy is invoked.

Oh dear DD

67P C-G vrs 4179 Toutatis

One is a electric comet the other is not. So why ?

No it's not the 'dark mode' fairy DD it's CHARGE !

How often to you need to be told ?

Electric Comets are charged bodies and that is the difference ... the AMOUNT of out-of-balance charge compared to the solar electric field.

So what IS the charge on 67P C-G and 4179 Toutatis ?

 

[ben m]

Hey, I clicked on a YouTube link.

Haig, the link you label "Electrical events are scalable" features someone intoning the sentence "electrical events are scalable". The speaker then resumes the usual EU/PC "slideshow of crater photos and welding photos".

"Electrical events" are NOT scalable, Haig. The speaker in this video is just fantasizing.

 

[ferd burfle]

So who is the author of these Misconception pages, sschirott?
This is probably Susan Schirott. No information that is easily available about her.
Judging by the latest post she is either ignorant or deluded - it is a mindless parroting of a "Grand Canyon is electrical" video from a professional photographer !
Anyone who is not in denial of science could find the scientific explanation of the Grand Canyon - basically a river winds across a plain that gradually rises up abut 2 miles into a plateau while the river erodes into a canyon.
The video is likely to be an ignorant of geology photographer pointing at features and going "ohhh electricity"!

I watched the video and it wasn't the usual EDM/lightning nonsense; it was new and different nonsense about geologic feature formation. Turns out the photographer who made the video is something of a freethinker among EU proponents. It occurred to him that maybe canyons aren't formed by erosion caused by ligntning bolts; maybe dirt and dust rain down on the earth and a river carries away the dirt that falls on it, leaving accumulated dirt on the dry areas surrounding the river. Voila!, a canyon!

The evidence for this comes from an experiment done by someone named Billy in a garage. Billy ran a trickle of water across a sloping piece of sheet metal while he sprinkled dust down on it. Sure enough, the water carried away the dust locally, leaving a "plateau" of dirt next to it. Now all of this would of course be EU heresy without including some electricity in the mix, so Billy has some electtrodes positioned above the sheet metal which presumable are at some (undisclosed) voltage relative to the sheet metal. So there you have it, proof positive of an additive electromagnetic mechanism can create geologic features . There was something too about the sun rising in the west and rivers flowing backwards but I viewed the video before I had my coffee so all I could make of it was that it was something he tossed in to keep the Velikovskians happy. In any case, I'm pretty sure it would take sconsumption of omething much stronger than caffeine to make any of it seem plausible to real scientists.

Oh, and the voice-over narration in the video gives credence to JeanTate's comparison of EU folks with fundamentalists. The narrration had that very same reasonable tone and phrasing fundies use to make you think they're rational and scientific just before they start spouting total nonsense.

 

[jonesdave116]

You seem to claim mainstream science has a good hypothesis on the puzzles of Mars.

Not when I last looked

NASA Mars Rover Opportunity Reveals Geological Mystery


Science Theme: Landscape Evolution


10 Unsolved Martian Mysteries


Mars' Geological Oddities



Maybe you should think again jonesdave116 ?

Here try to grasp this approach ...

Scars Of The Planetary Wars



That should make you reconsider





Oh dear DD

67P C-G vrs 4179 Toutatis

One is a electric comet the other is not. So why ?

No it's not the 'dark mode' fairy DD it's CHARGE !

How often to you need to be told ?

Electric Comets are charged bodies and that is the difference ... the AMOUNT of out-of-balance charge compared to the solar electric field.

So what IS the charge on 67P C-G and 4179 Toutatis ?

None of that garbage you posted has anything to do with electric anything on Mars. I'll look at it later, assuming it isn't links to crank science.
The question regarding Toutatis, is that it is a rock, as you claim 67P is, it has an eccentric orbit very similar to 67P, it has similar aphelion and perihelion distances to 67P, it is moving through exactly the same medium. So, if it's made of the same stuff, has a very similar eccentricity and similar orbital parameters, why the hell is it NOT charging in the same way as 67P. Get it? Because Thunderdolts says, as you posted, "The same thing would happen to an object of any size on a cometary orbit through the Sun's electric field". Comprende? Why is one charging and not the other? What is so special about one lump of silicate rock that causes it to be charged, but not the other lump of silicate rock?
And as has already been explained before, a body like this CANNOT build up a significant charge in the solar wind. There are free electrons (negative) and free ions (positive). What happens when the body takes on a charge of either sign? That's right, it repels like charges, and attracts opposite ones. It neuitralises. Electrickery 101.
What is the charge on 67P? Miniscule, otherwise it would have been noticed! And certainly not 33 Gigavolts, which is what you need to explain the density.

 

[JeanTate]

[...]
Oh dear DD

67P C-G vrs 4179 Toutatis

One is a electric comet the other is not. So why ?

No it's not the 'dark mode' fairy DD it's CHARGE !

How often to you need to be told ?

Electric Comets are charged bodies and that is the difference ... the AMOUNT of out-of-balance charge compared to the solar electric field.

That's pretty amazing, Haig.

I never thought I'd see the day when you posted material that is heretical in direct contradiction to a core aspect of the ES!

Per the material to which you have provided links (a great many times), "the AMOUNT of out-of-balance charge compared to the solar electric field" is a function of only two things, the distance of the body from the Sun, and the eccentricity of its orbit. Thus 67P C-G and 4179 Toutatis are required to have very similar charges.

(but I promise not to tell Talbott or Scott about your, um, contrarian beliefs opinion )

So what IS the charge on 67P C-G and 4179 Toutatis ?

I dunno, but you clearly do ... care to share the answers with us?

 

[JeanTate]

[...]

Oh, and the voice-over narration in the video gives credence to JeanTate's comparison of EU folks with fundamentalists. The narrration had that very same reasonable tone and phrasing fundies use to make you think they're rational and scientific just before they start spouting total nonsense.

Amazing isn't it?

Once you become aware of this aspect of "the EU", it becomes obvious, and pretty much ubiquitous in all their material ...