Continuation The Electric Comet Theory Boogaloo (Part 2)

[jonesdave116]

And that's it, "jets" issuing from the RIM of a pit?

There are thousands of pictures and they release ONE that could be interpreted as a "jet" issuing from a subsurface pressurised chamber?



and no ice was seen at this location so what exactly was sublimating?

Sounds more like a effect to me!

Talking rubbish, as usual. How does this electrostatic effect that has been modelled (not observed) relate to jets coming from a pit wall? Are you suggesting that we have to go through all the already unambiguous evidence for ice at comets, yet again? On the surface, beneath the surface and in the coma?
And this has nothing to do with jets from a pressurised chamber. Does it look pressurised to you? The explosive outbursts of perihelion may well have been from pressurised gas beneath the surface. The spacecraft wasn't close enough to see. It will be soon. You also keep forgetting that the sublimation of surface ice has already been seen: "The diurnal cycle of water ice on comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v525/n7570/abs/nature14869.html
That there is ice on and below the surface of comets is a done deal. Unambiguous. Pointless even arguing about it. EU has well and truly lost that one.
Perhaps you could now list the observations of electric woo on the surface that we should have seen by now, as promised by D. Talbott et al. Or is this just the usual pseudoscience 101 trick of trying (very badly) to pick holes in actual science to cover up for the fact that the proposed woo has no evidence whatsoever after 15 months at this comet, and a number of visits to other comets?

 

[jonesdave116]

If the previous wasn't clear enough for Sol (and I know how you like piccies), then this should illustrate that we don't need to invoke any kind of electric woo to explain how the dust is getting into the coma:

MIRO: http://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full_html/2015/11/aa26094-15/aa26094-15.html

OSIRIS: http://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/full_html/2015/11/aa25961-15/aa25961-15.html

 

[tusenfem]

Sounds more like a effect to me!

Yeah, we don't really care what it sound like to you, and neither does nature.

 

[tusenfem]

Here are the titles of the talks and the posters on Rosetta at the upcoming AGU fall meeting:

Talks

• Evolution of H2O related species in the neutral coma of 67P
• The Activity of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko as Seen by Rosetta/OSIRIS
• First Detection of a Diamagnetic Cavity at 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
• VIRTIS/Rosetta Observes Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko: Nucleus and Coma Derived Composition and Physical Properties
• Coma dust environment observed by GIADA during the Perihelion of 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko.
• The Nucleus and Coma of Comet 67P/C-G at Millimeter and Submillimeter Wavelengths as seen by MIRO
• Ultraviolet emission from CG's coma: fluorescence versus electron-impact excitation
• Constraining the bulk Dust to Ice Ratio and Compressive Strength for Comet Churyumov Gerasimenko Using CONSERT Radar Observations

Posters

• COSIMA at Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko After Perihelion
• Implications for the Ice Phase of 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko from ROSINA/DFMS
• Rosetta/ROSINA observations of the volatiles in the coma of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko during the nominal mission
• Measurements at Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko with the Dust Impact Monitor (SESAME-DIM)
• The Magnetic Response to Sudden Mass-loading of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko’s Induced Magnetosphere
• RPC-IES observations of the development and variability of plasma interaction regions near 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
• Evidence of Inhomogeneous Coma Composition at 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
• High-energy pickup ions measured at Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko by the Rosetta Ion and Electron Sensor (IES)
• Solar Wind Interaction with Comet 67P/C-G: Impact of Corotating Interaction Regions
• Evolution of the Plasma Environment of Comet 67P
• The Evolution of Comet 67P as Seen by a Mass-Resolving Ion Spectrometer
• Study of the coma of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko based on the ROSINA/RTOF instrument onboard Rosetta
• Isotopes and Minor Volatiles in the Coma of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko Observed by the Rosetta/ROSINA Instrument: Planetary Implications
• Combining DSMC Simulations and ROSINA/COPS Data of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko to Develop a Realistic Empirical Coma Model and to Determine Accurate Production Rates
• Modeling of the Inner Coma of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko Constrained by VIRTIS and ROSINA Observations
• Halogens at Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko seen with ROSINA-DFMS
• Rosetta Mission Status: Toward and From Perihelion Passage
• The Electron to Neutral Number Density Ratio as a Proxy for Processes at Play in the Coma of 67P
• The Gravity field of Comet 67 P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko Expressed in Bispherical Harmonics
• Atomic Oxygen Green and Red Emissions in the Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
• Near Nucleus Dust Coma Analysis on the Base of In Situ GIADA Observations and Aspherical Dust Grain Model.
• Mapping of the cometary plasma density around comet CG/67P at perihelion.
• Morphology of the nucleus of Comet 67P/Churyumov--Gerasimenko from stereo and high spatial resolution OSIRIS-NAC images
• A study of the variation of physical conditions in the cometary coma based on a 3D multi-fluid model
• Four-fluid MHD Simulations of the Plasma and Neutral Gas Environment of Comet Churyumov-Gerasimenko Near Perihelio
• MIRO Observations of the Southern Regions of 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko: From Deep Polar Night, to Summer at Perihelion.

 

[Sol88]

Talking rubbish, as usual. How does this electrostatic effect that has been modelled (not observed) relate to jets coming from a pit wall? Are you suggesting that we have to go through all the already unambiguous evidence for ice at comets, yet again? On the surface, beneath the surface and in the coma?
And this has nothing to do with jets from a pressurised chamber. Does it look pressurised to you? The explosive outbursts of perihelion may well have been from pressurised gas beneath the surface. The spacecraft wasn't close enough to see. It will be soon. You also keep forgetting that the sublimation of surface ice has already been seen: "The diurnal cycle of water ice on comet 67P/Churyumov–Gerasimenko." http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v525/n7570/abs/nature14869.html
That there is ice on and below the surface of comets is a done deal. Unambiguous. Pointless even arguing about it. EU has well and truly lost that one.
Perhaps you could now list the observations of electric woo on the surface that we should have seen by now, as promised by D. Talbott et al. Or is this just the usual pseudoscience 101 trick of trying (very badly) to pick holes in actual science to cover up for the fact that the proposed woo has no evidence whatsoever after 15 months at this comet, and a number of visits to other comets?

http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/11/11/the-singing-comet/

RPC consists of five instruments on the Rosetta orbiter that provide a wide variety of complementary information about the plasma environment surrounding Comet 67P/C-G. (Reminder: Plasma is the fourth state of matter, an electrically conductive gas that can carry magnetic fields and electrical currents.)

Just in case you are a little confused JD116

 

[Sol88]

@Tusenfem, can't wait

 

[tusenfem]

Just in case you are a little confused JD116

That still does not explain any of the EU claims, put some more effort in it solly, non-sequitur comments like this are a waste of electrons.

 

[jonesdave116]

http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/11/11/the-singing-comet/



Just in case you are a little confused JD116

Confused about what? Dust coming off comet. Water coming off comet. Same place, same time = no electric woo. Not sure why you would link to articles about plasma, which nobody in EU seems to understand anyway; = irrelevant.
15 months, and still evading and obfuscating. Where is the woo? Zero evidence, like I said. Go read D. Talbott's predictions again (http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10359420&postcount=2441).
Go read Thornhill and Talbott's description of what an electric comet is supposed to be (http://aetherforce.com/the-electric-comet-by-wallace-thornhill-and-david-talbott/).
Not looking good, is it?

 

[jonesdave116]

Here are the titles of the talks and the posters on Rosetta at the upcoming AGU fall meeting:


Posters
[*]The Magnetic Response to Sudden Mass-loading of Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko’s Induced Magnetosphere

I'm sure this one will be the highlight!

 

[tusenfem]

I'm sure this one will be the highlight!

I quite agree haha!!

 

[aleCcowaN]

It's going to be a buzzing event.

 

[Reality Check]

http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/11/11/the-singing-comet/

You are totally confused, Sol88 ! Your delusions about electrostatic charging of dust are not your delusions about plasma.

List of 64 items of ignorance, lies and delusions from Sol88

1. 24 November 2015 Sol88: A delusion about jets issuing from the RIM of a pit when we have a jet issuing from inside a pit.
2. 24 November 2015 Sol88: Ignorance of English where "jets have also been spotted rising from pits" is plural!
3. 24 November 2015 Sol88: Repeats a delusion that a jet has to come from "a subsurface pressurised chamber".
   This is based on the previous idiocy that a paper with a proposed mechanism to create narrow jets applies to all jets.
4. 24 November 2015 Sol88: The delusion that no ice is in images of the ices and dust on the surface of 67P!
   We have an image of a jet-like feature issuing from a pit that has formed in the ices and dust on the surface of 67P. The jet is coming from sublimating ices!
5. 24 November 2015 Sol88: Lies about the contents of a Surface charging paper.
   Surface charging and electrostatic dust acceleration at the nucleus of comet 67P during periods of low activity is not about the jets from the ices sublimating on 67P.
6. 24 November 2015 Sol88: Cannot count to 2 (the number of images of jets from pits cited on 16 Nov)
7. 24 November 2015 Sol88: Misses again yet another nail in the coffin containing the dead, stinking EC corpse (jets from pits) pointed out 4 July 2015!
8. 25 November 2015 Sol88: A deluded answer to a post about an electrostatic effect with a citation to plasmas environment of comets.

146 days and counting of fear of physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.

 

[Sol88]

It's going to be a buzzing event.

Anything on the RPC-LAP instrument at the next AGU?

 

[Reality Check]

Anything on the RPC-LAP instrument at the next AGU?

Why would we think that you would attempt to understand this instrument, Sol88, when you have a track record of denying and lying about science in this thread?
I suspect you are looking for fodder for your delusions that comets are rocks and electrical.
List of 72 items of ignorance, lies and delusions from Sol88
147 days and counting of fear of physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.

ETA: RPC-LAP instrument

A Langmuir probe is a device to measure weak electric currents flowing between the spacecraft and the surrounding space. "Empty space" is never empty: it always contains a tenuous gas of electrically charged particles, known as a plasma. By measuring the current to the Langmuir probe while varying its potential, we can find out quantities like the density, temperature and flow speed of the plasma. As pressure is density times temperature, we measure the three fundamental properties of all weather stations: temperature, pressure and wind speed: hence we sometimes call our instrument a "space weather station".

So it looks like Sol88 has picked this instrument because of "weak electric currents".

 

[Reality Check]

P31E-2112: Mapping of the cometary plasma density around comet CG/67P at perihelion.

In August 2015, comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko, target of the ESA’s Rosetta mission, reached its perihelion at 1.3 AU from the Sun. The Rosetta Plasma Consortium (RPC) onboard the Rosetta spacecraft offers a unique opportunity to analyze the plasma environment during this period. Combining observations from the Mutual Impedance probe (RPC-MIP) and the Langmuir probes (RPC-LAP), we estimate the cometary plasma density. We will present its spatial distribution around the comet when close to perihelion. Combined Mutual impedance and Langmuir probes density measurements are also compared to the density derived from particle measurements (RPC-ICA and RPC-IES). In addition, we will focus on localised, strong variations of the cometary plasma density over short timescales (~ minutes to seconds) observed during this period. These strong plasma density enhancements are interpreted taken into account the electron energy spectrum measured by the Ion and Electron Spectrometer (RPC-IES). Possible correlations of these plasma enhancements with variations in the magnetic field direction measured from the Magnetometer (RPC-MAG) will be discussed.

 

[Reality Check]

P31E-2100: Evolution of the Plasma Environment of Comet 67P

Since the arrival of Rosetta at comet 67P in August 2014, the plasma environment around the nucleus has been dominated by plasma of cometary origin, as witnessed by a strong modulation by the rotation of the nucleus on the plasma density from the Langmuir probe (RPC-LAP) and Mutual impedance probe (RPC-MIP) instruments. As 67P is not a particularly active comet, coma densities have mainly been too low to efficiently cool the electrons emitted by ionization of neutrals, keeping the electron temperature well into the eV range and driving the spacecraft to a potential often below -10 V. The plasma density has evolved from tens of cm-3 at the early stage to hundreds and thousands of cm-3 during the approach to perihelion. In addition to the large scale structures and slow evolution, the data also show a multitude of transient features of which we will also provide some examples.

 

[Reality Check]

P31E-2108: The Electron to Neutral Number Density Ratio as a Proxy for Processes at Play in the Coma of 67P

The electron to neutral number density ratio, ne/nN, can provide insights into processes at play in the inner coma of comet 67P. Based on a field free and chemistry free radial expansion model and from computed photoionization frequencies of dominant cometary neutrals we derive a benchmark expression of ne/nN as a function of cometocentric distance, r, and heliocentric distance, d. For mid-October 2014 when r=10 km and d=3.1 AU the model gives a ratio of ne/nN = 9.8×10-7, which is in good agreement with the ratios of 1-2×10-6 derived from observations by the dual Langmuir probe (LAP), the Mutual Impedance Probe (MIP) and the Rosetta Orbiter Spectrometer for Ion and Neutral Analysis (ROSINA). ...

 

[Sol88]

I'm sure this one will be the highlight!

reckon?

I reckon the talk on the RPC-LAP instrument would be the highlight!!

Rosetta and LAP in a nutshell
Rosetta is an ESA (European Space Agency) mission to a comet, launched in 2004 and arriving in 2014. We have built a "space weather station", the Langmuir probe instrument (LAP) to investigate the cometary environment. En route to the comet, we can do measurements in interplanetary space and in the environments of Earth and Mars when we pass by these planets.

The picture below shows Rosetta in space. The large bluish "wings" are the solar panels which provide electricity for all systems onboard the spacecraft. The red circles show the locations of the two sensors of our instrument, LAP. One of the two sensors is enlarged at the bottom of the picture. The sensor itself is a titanium sphere 50 mm in diameter, looking goldish because of its titanium nitride coating.

A Langmuir probe is a device to measure weak electric currents flowing between the spacecraft and the surrounding space. "Empty space" is never empty: it always contains a tenuous gas of electrically charged particles, known as a plasma. By measuring the current to the Langmuir probe while varying its potential, we can find out quantities like the density, temperature and flow speed of the plasma. As pressure is density times temperature, we measure the three fundamental properties of all weather stations: temperature, pressure and wind speed: hence we sometimes call our instrument a "space weather station".

The main target of Rosetta is a comet known as 67 P/Churyomov-Gerasimenko. Comets have always been fascinating to mankind. Nowadays, we understand that they are not only beautiful, but that they also may hold important clues to the formation of the solar system, as they are a sort of uncooked leftovers from the time when the solar system was baked into its present shape, preserved in a kind of cosmic freezer for some 4 billion years.

http://space.irfu.se/exjobb/2005_claes_weyde/Weyde2006a.pdf

 

[jonesdave116]

reckon I reckon the talk on the RPC-LAP instrument would be the highlight!!

May well be. There won't be anything in it for EU to get excited about, though.
I think Tusenfem will know all about those results, and if there were something to confirm EU fantasies (despite all the evidence so far to the contrary), he would probably be rather sheepish right about now!
Seems to be his normal self!

ETA:
You obviously didn't read RCs posts above from the upcoming meeting. Nor this from back in April:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2015EGUGA..17.7157E

 

[Reality Check]

I reckon the talk on the RPC-LAP instrument would be the highlight!!

Sol88 - do you think that this basic physics about plasma is about your delusions that comets are rocks and electrical?
That highlighted quote "A Langmuir probe is a device to measure weak electric currents flowing between the spacecraft and the surrounding space. "Empty space" is never empty: it always contains a tenuous gas of electrically charged particles, known as a plasma." needs a

And citing the Plasma parameters from the Rosetta LAP instrument PDF might need another! Once again science that is not your delusions that comets are rocks and electrical.

ETA: But this may be science that debunks one of your delusions. You advocate the Thunderbolts cult dogma which includes the delusion that multiple techniques of measuring comet density are magically wrong because of their fantasies about electric fields. One of the Thunderbolts delusions (and so yours) is that charging of the Rosetta spacecraft changed its apparent mass many-fold through electrostatic forces. And the RPC-LAP instrument has measured the Rosetta spacecraft voltage! Of course the Thunderbolts cult is too ignorant and lazy to turn this into actual science.
W.T."Tom" Bridgman did the science almost a year ago: Electric Comets III: Mass vs. Charge
The potential on the Rosetta spacecraft was estimated to be of the order of 35 gigavolts.
The measured potential is ~10 V