Continuation Part Eight: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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I believe all profiles were direct contact. There's no source DNA for contamination to occur. You must have a source. DNA isn't floating in the ether.

You know Italian?

How do other profiles explain how Raffaele's DNA ended up on the clasp, if there is no source DNA of his in the house other than tiny amount mixed with Knox's on a cig in the kitchen?

The simple explanation is Raffaele touched the bra clasp that night which jives with the fact he has no alibi. Every guilty person cries contamination. I think we would have to eliminate using DNA in murder trials if we accept this is contamination.

Or he kissed Meredith on the cheek when he said hello (as Italians do) - she then went to get dressed and wiped her face before doing up her bra. Or possibly he had used the towels in Meredith's bathroom or possibly he touched her laundry in the days previous or perhaps Meredith used a glass Raffale had just drunk from - and on and on and on. This is why Professor Gill argues that it is not appropriate to use LCN DNA to convict people who have been in contact with the victim or have legitimate reasons to be at the crime scene

And again, how do you know how much DNA of anyone was at the house? Do you really believe they tested every inch of the property for DNA? I assumed they concentrated mainly on Meredith's room and possessions, rather than swabbing every kitchen item and every inch of the floor, walls, furniture etc.
 
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I believe all profiles were direct contact. There's no source DNA for contamination to occur. You must have a source. DNA isn't floating in the ether.

You know Italian?

How do other profiles explain how Raffaele's DNA ended up on the clasp, if there is no source DNA of his in the house other than tiny amount mixed with Knox's on a cig in the kitchen?

The simple explanation is Raffaele touched the bra clasp that night which jives with the fact he has no alibi. Every guilty person cries contamination. I think we would have to eliminate using DNA in murder trials if we accept this is contamination.

The better explanation is contamination, four routes of which for that clasp were admitted to by Stefanoni at the Massei trial. I listed for you those four routes upthread.

You should read the Massei report.
 
No, Gill does not say that "the most likely explanation is secondary transfer". He says it could be a possibility. But he says this in an interview, we don't know how much of this case he has actually investigated, if anything. The actual pro and cons are taken into consideration and weighed by the court. ---

I agree with you. I made this point above. In the end the judges (or the jury) decide. It is however false to claim that no possibility of secondary transfer exists. The court has to decide whether the possibility of secondary transfer is of such likelihood that this invalidates this as a piece of evidence. Prof. Gill thinks it does. I do not know how likely secondary transfer needs to be to as an explanation to invalidate it under Italian law; 1%, 10%, 51%?

What should be considered is

1) Is there a possible route of contamination? Here Gill argues that there is; from the external handle of the bedroom door, onto the gloves of the forensic scientist, onto the bra hook.
2) Were appropriate precautions taken to prevent secondary transfer, both when collecting, transferring, and analysing the sample. Here the answer is no.
3) Is the result corroborated by other tests? Here unlike Guede's samples no. This was an isolated finding with no other transfer of blood, fibres, or DNA between Sollecito and Kircher (or Guede).
4) The sample is mixed containing DNA of several individuals (unidentified) apart from Sollecito.

Having considered these issues the court can draw its conclusions. However Nencini just dismissed secondary transfer. In my opinion, (and Prof. Gill), the LCN sample of DNA on the bra hook is sufficiently likely to be attributable to innocent secondary transfer as to render this as non contributory to the case. I am not required to agree with Nencini, and we all know wrongful convictions do occur.

I've gotten a kick out of the pages and pages on this forum about Nencini and the "Y-stuff". All mostly from this Luca Cheli person's bizarre interpretation of what Nencini has actually written.

---

I agree, the discussion about XY females was silly and I said so. I am guilty of contributing to it. The crumble discussion was better.
 
I believe all profiles were direct contact. There's no source DNA for contamination to occur. You must have a source. DNA isn't floating in the ether.

You know Italian?

How do other profiles explain how Raffaele's DNA ended up on the clasp, if there is no source DNA of his in the house other than tiny amount mixed with Knox's on a cig in the kitchen?

The simple explanation is Raffaele touched the bra clasp that night which jives with the fact he has no alibi. Every guilty person cries contamination. I think we would have to eliminate using DNA in murder trials if we accept this is contamination.


Wow. So you're sure that the crack forensics team swabbed every single surface in the house for DNA? You're sure that the crack forensics team even swabbed the entire outer (hallway-facing) door of Meredith's room for DNA? You know: the door that Sollecito says he pushed hard against several times on the morning of the 2nd November?*

You're also quite clearly unaware of where the boundaries of low-template DNA analysis lie. You have repeated the entirely misleading nonsense of "abundant amounts" of Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp, when in fact it's firmly in the low-template range. It's only "abundant" relative to the ludicrously minuscule quantity of the victim's DNA that was allegedly found on the blade of Sollecito's kitchen knife (and which is by every single accepted standard an unreliable and inadmissible result).

The amounts of DNA that are apparently present on the bra clasp call for sophisticated low-template testing protocols (oops, they weren't followed....), and for scrupulous care to be taken in collecting and storing the item being tested (oops, the bra clasp was kicked around on the floor for six weeks, passed round like a birthday present when it was finally collected, and it's since been destroyed as evidence by crack forensic specialist Ms Stefanoni....). The apparent presence of other male profiles on the clasp DOESN'T mean or imply that other as-yet-unidentified men were also complicit in the attack and murder. Rather, it implies that grossly insufficient care was taken (whether in the lab or at the crime scene) to prevent widescale contamination of the bra clasp.

Lastly, time once more to nail the myth that "we would have to eliminate using DNA in murder trials if we accept this is contamination." This is a lazy and/or ignorant "argument" that does no more than indicate a fundamental failure to understand the very real issues surrounding low-template DNA evidence. You manifestly fail to (or refuse to) understand that when dealing with such tiny quantities of DNA, the results are meaningless and invalid UNLESS extremely strict protocols and processes are scrupulously adhered to from identification of exhibits all the way through to testing and interpretation of results. This type of DNA analysis is an entirely different ball game from "standard" DNA work where any contamination is totally swamped by the (true) abundance of source DNA. Unfortunately, neither the crack forensics team nor the crack world-renowned testing technician (who, oddly and improperly, also headed up the forensics crime-scene team!) seemingly had the first idea of what they were doing when it came to the extreme care, skill and safeguarding that are absultely mandatory when dealing with low-template-level samples.


* Hint: the police didn't do any such swabbing. All that the known DNA results tell us is that of those items which the crack forensics team did swab, Sollecito's DNA was only present on that cigarette butt. But that is entirely different - both logically and in practice - from making the incorrect and misleading assertion that the only place within the cottage where Sollecito's DNA was present was upon that cigarette butt. (Unless one is either ignorant or confirmation-biased of course, in which case it's just fine to bandy around that kind of stuff :D )
 
That was a great and very sensible post Planigale - and same to LondonJohn - sadly I think that both informative and sensible posts will be ignored and another random tangent or anomaly of the case, will be spouted instead
 
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I believe all profiles were direct contact. There's no source DNA for contamination to occur. You must have a source. DNA isn't floating in the ether.

What makes you BELIEVE that all profiles were direct contact? Even DNA experts CANNOT know this. In fact Aiken there is no way to prove that all profiles were direct contact or what the source happens to be and DNA does float like in an ether. We live in DNA soup. Every exhale of your breath is a legitimate source for DNA. Everything you touch can leave DNA which someone else can pick up and deposit elsewhere. DNA has been proven many times to be able to be spread through secondary transfer.

You know Italian?

How do other profiles explain how Raffaele's DNA ended up on the clasp, if there is no source DNA of his in the house other than tiny amount mixed with Knox's on a cig in the kitchen?
Excuse me Aiken? The only other source of Raffaele's DNA in the house was on Knox's cigarette? That is not the source Aiken, that is just a sample found. The source was Raffaele. He could have left his DNA on the doorknob to Meredith's room or a dozens of other places around the cottage. You/we don't know.

The simple explanation is Raffaele touched the bra clasp that night which jives with the fact he has no alibi. Every guilty person cries contamination. I think we would have to eliminate using DNA in murder trials if we accept this is contamination.

You're right Aiken. That is a simple explanation and it is the easy one. But is that what we want? Simple and easy? Or do we want fair and just?

I think you're absolutely wrong that we would have to eliminate DNA in other trials.
You need to get your head around the fact there is a significant difference between a DNA sample derived from a semen sample, a vaginal swab or a blood stain and DNA found on a piece of clothing that had been kicked around for 46 days and passed between people who were wearing dirty gloves.
 
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the raw data were never disclosed

The raw data for DNA was disclosed. It was referenced in court according to the transcript.
Your statement is false. Stefanoni asserted that the negative controls were deposited, but they have never materialized. The raw data were never disclosed, as Dalla Vedova said in an interview in 2011. This alone is a major error with respect to the proper conduct of the trial.
 
aerosol DNA

I believe all profiles were direct contact. There's no source DNA for contamination to occur. You must have a source. DNA isn't floating in the ether.
Your statement flies in the face of an axiom of DNA profiling, that you cannot tell how DNA got onto an item from the mere fact of its existence. And airborne DNA is a well-known phenomenon, as I discussed elsewhere.
 
shoe print falsehood

What evidence is there RG broke into the house? What evidence is there that he went into the bathroom as his bloody prints headed straight to the door?

It was obvious they did the DNA test right if the profile from the room matched the profile they took from his house. Thus, they are not incompetent. Thus, no reason to believe they were incompetent in the other DNA testing.
Guede's prints did not go outside. Your claim (that if a profile matches, they are not incompetent) is not even wrong. For example, Stefanoni's practice of not changing gloves is in stark contrast to what every expert whom I have read has said, which is that one should change gloves between every item of evidence that is handled.
 
Anything Goes

They did not prove any protocols were not followed, and there is no one set of protocols that much be followed in foresnics.
Baloney. They did not change gloves between each item, and they handed the clasp around and put it on the ground before bagging it (and that is just for starters). "Anything Goes" is a great song, but it is bad forensic protocol.
 
WowYou're also quite clearly unaware of where the boundaries of low-template DNA analysis lie.

On the internets even you can be a DNA expert.

The Judge Nencini cites the various experts who have actually had the years ands years of training, actual reputations in their field, work history the real world experience of working on the field on cases, and on this case in particular.

But it's nice to know you've read some articles.
 
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I believe all profiles were direct contact. There's no source DNA for contamination to occur. You must have a source. DNA isn't floating in the ether.

You know Italian?

How do other profiles explain how Raffaele's DNA ended up on the clasp, if there is no source DNA of his in the house other than tiny amount mixed with Knox's on a cig in the kitchen?

The simple explanation is Raffaele touched the bra clasp that night which jives with the fact he has no alibi. Every guilty person cries contamination. I think we would have to eliminate using DNA in murder trials if we accept this is contamination.

This is an important post.

It gets down to the crucial issue about LCN DNA. We do not know what it means.

You say it has to be direct contact. How do we know that? The problem is we do not know. The UK Forensic science service essentially invented forensic DNA. They first introduced LCN DNA in the 2007 Omagh bomb trial. The appeal was in part successful because we do not know what LCN DNA means. We need to have sampled hundreds of bras, and identified LCN profiles and worked out what proportion derive from direct contact and what proportion from secondary transfer.

Good references on this
http://www.theforensicinstitute.com/news/low-copy-number-dna-and-the-forensic-institute.html
http://www.journalonline.co.uk/Magazine/52-2/1003857.aspx
http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/emfpu/genetics/explained/low-template

A particular issue arises because the DNA is not related to blood or semen, it is just DNA.

In contrast DNA is many 'cold cases' is different. There is e.g. a rape victim, there is semen. The rape is unarguable. The semen has no innocent explanation, DNA analysis of the semen matches a known sex offender.

Re DNA floating in aether (I presume you mean as opposed to diethyl ether), aether was disposed of by Michelson and Morley in 1887. If you mean DNA does not float in air I suppose that means you do not believe in influenza or TB. DNA does transfer.

Finally for those interested this is an excellent review.

http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/1/1/14
 
On the internets even you can be a DNA expert.

The Judge Nencini cites the various experts who have actually had the years ands years of training, actual reputations in their field, work history the real world experience of working on the field on cases, and on this case in particular.

But it's nice to know you've read some articles.

I guess he must have quoted them and then ignored what they said - just like he has ignored the court appointed DNA experts, who have training, reputations in their field and I'm assuming far more experience than anyone here and who widely criticised the DNA evidence.

Independent experts trashed the DNA evidence and yet for some reason you continue to believe it is valid - why aren't you angry about the shoddy forensic work that led to the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele being so widely criticised and led to their release from prison? Surely you should be calling for the resignation of Stefanoni for making such huge blunders and allowing the evil pair to get away with murder? If only she had followed all the protocols, they would still be in prison. :notexpectingananswer:
 
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I guess he must have quoted them and then ignored what they said - just like he has ignored the court appointed DNA experts who widely criticised the DNA evidence


Are you talking about the Dumber&Dumber Amateur Hour non-experts Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti... the ones appointed by the corrupt Claudio Hellman? The one whose court was completely discredited?
 
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I guess he must have quoted them and then ignored what they said - just like he has ignored the court appointed DNA experts who widely criticised the DNA evidence

Yes, judicial oafs the likes of Massei and Nencini strangely do seem to prefer the "professional opinions" of "experts" who aver that the likelihood of DNA contamination is tantamount to a meteor striking Perugia. Strangely, this requires them to reject or ignore the very precisely considered opinions of serious, credentialed scientists with international reputations, like Conti and Vecchiotti.

This sort of preference tends to win decisions for the home team, as it were, but does very little for Italy's reputation as a practitioner of modern justice or science.
 
Are you talking about the Dumber&Dumber Amateur Hour non-experts Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti... the ones appointed by the corrupt Claudio Hellman? The one whose court was completely discredited?

If an officious simpleton purports to "discredit" you, are you really discredited?
 
Are you talking about the Dumber&Dumber Amateur Hour non-experts Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti... the ones appointed by the corrupt Claudio Hellman? The one whose court was completely discredited?

discredited by 9-11 truthers... This is like those people who say that Obama was born in Kenya and is an illegitimate President.
 
Are you talking about the Dumber&Dumber Amateur Hour non-experts Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti... the ones appointed by the corrupt Claudio Hellman? The one whose court was completely discredited?

And this anti-science statement says everything we need to know about your opinion. And as I thought, you avoided the question I asked in my last post
 
If an officious simpleton purports to "discredit" you, are you really discredited?

Only amongst his fellow officious simpletons. Visit TJMK or the various PMFs (what have their schisms brought their number up to, now?), lately?
 
They did not prove any protocols were not followed, and there is no one set of protocols that much be followed in foresnics.

Why wasn't DNA found on other items if this incompetence was leading to contamination. You have to admit the bra clasp and blade of the knife could not be worse locations to find DNA that points to guilt.

You are not proving contamination or even logical mechanism by which it occured. Given the proseuction's case does not rest soley on DNA evidence, and this DNA evidence does not rule out Knox and Sollicto given you can only speculate it was contamination, that isn't good if you are pleading innocence.

Actually there are standards. e.g. http://www.enfsi.eu/sites/default/f...e_contamantion_prevention_final_-_v2010_0.pdf
Any laboratory should have SOPs; these should be validated where they vary from the procedures in the manual. What you cannot just do is make it up on the fly. The defence should have access to the laboratory SOPs and be able to assure themselves these were followed. Laboratories are full of manuals, the in house methodology for extraction, for standardisation, for cleaning etc. Science is mostly boring and involves following the procedure. Occasionally you vary something then you carefully document what the result was.
 
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