Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Supernaut]

Reading your post I can understand your sentiments. However, my thoughts always drift to the Kercher family; Meredith just like Amanda was studying abroad and just like Amanda had been in Italy only a few weeks. Yes you and others will state Guede is responsible, but for me that doesn’t change my focus on the Kercher family and their life sentence.

Coulsdon - any idea what the Kerchers' legal bill is, so far?

You seem like someone who might know.

That's because you exude such a sense of personal concern and, perhaps, involvement with the family of the young murder victim.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

No you didn't but that has been a theme of the PGP for years and your comment had that flavor.

Do you always think of the family of Alice Hathaway when Richard Jewell is discussed and what the system did to him?

I have no idea what you are referring to, my post above was expressing a personal opinion in response to Codyjuneau post.

Let it go and move on.

 

[christianahannah]

Not to me. Where in the preceding exchanges is there anything to which her 'I was there' remark relates? I don't follow. If Edda, say, had said 'they're trying to pressure you to say you weren't with Raffaele' and she then said 'I was there. I cannot lie' it would be completely clear.

Still, I noted that Dempsey also confirms Amanda's account that her explanation was accepted by Micheli. The opposite construction makes absolutely no sense, that she would say, and be understood by her parents to say, she was at her place but that her parents would not react to that is ridiculous.

I agree with what you write. The above transcription does not seem to make sense. Either it was interpreted wrong or there is missing conversation.

In the preface of the Massei Report there are two paragraphs concerning voice recordings and transcriptions.

Page 20:

In the meantime the Court had initiated, at the request of the Sollecito defence and in agreement with the Prosecutor, the expert task of a joint nature for the transcription of the tapped telephone conversations and voice recordings arranged by the Office of the Public Prosecutor in Perugia in the course of the preliminary investigations, the transcription of which had been requested.

(These voice recordings were made at Police Headquarters in Perugia, appropriately prepared, where the co-tenants of Meredith Kercher, the boys of the apartment below that one occupied by the murdered girl, and the English girlfriends of the English student involved in the Erasmus Programme, had gathered on the afternoon of November 2, 2007. Other voice recordings were made during meetings in prison between Amanda and her parents. Finally, phone tappings had been made of the fixed and mobile phone services of the family of Raffaele Sollecito.)

I take this transcription to also include Amanda's defense but of that I am not certain. It was to be done jointly between the defense and prosecution so I think that might also include Amanda (and also because Massei writes of the voice recordings between Amanda and her parents in prison). I would hope the original recordings were kept in the native languages so as to compare against the transcriptions and to refer back to should there be any discrepancy about meaning of words or phrases.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Dup

 

[Supernaut]

I have no idea what you are referring to, my post above was expressing a personal opinion in response to Codyjuneau post.

Let it go and move on.

So, given that your thoughts always drift to the Kercher family, have they ever included "thoughts" about their finances?

 

[Mary_H]

Reading your post I can understand your sentiments. However, my thoughts always drift to the Kercher family; Meredith just like Amanda was studying abroad and just like Amanda had been in Italy only a few weeks. Yes you and others will state Guede is responsible, but for me that doesn’t change my focus on the Kercher family and their life sentence.

The Kercher family and their life sentence is definitely worth focusing on.

Do you have any thoughts about their lawyer, Francesco Maresca?

ETA: I am not trying to be defiant, Coulsdon. I think talking about the Kerchers' situation is something we should do. I tried to talk to both you and Stilicho about it a couple weeks ago and you both ran away without answering my questions. Why do you do that?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9480684&postcount=10572

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9480980&postcount=10576

 

[Supernaut]

To me, it appears that so far the Italian economy, or at least its "justice industry" is up several millions of €/$/£, courtesy of the Knox, Mellas and Kercher families.

[ETA >> somehow, I forgot the Sollecito family!]

Overall and in the long run though, it's probably going to cost Italy MUCH more than that.

 

[Bill Williams]

My question to you Machiavelli is, because the court knows the truth, and the correct attribution for 'I was there', then, either relevant information is missing from the transcripts available to us, the public, or the court is maliciously mischaracterizing the evidence to falsely implicate Knox in a clear display of its prejudice against her - Yes or No?

What other option could there be?

Pardon me for butting in, but I've been after Machiavelli on this point for a while. Can he also say why Andrea Vogt so far has not commented on this - if even to confirm that she thinks she got it right in 2009, when she reported to all of Seattle, that this "I was there" comment was a virtual confession on the part of Amanda Knox?

Did Ms. Vogt think she got it right? Did she get it right only in the sense that she was simply passing on that this is what was once said in court?

Ms. Vogt knows that this is one of those benchmark issues on which her integrity as a journalist is judged. Perhaps she doesn't care, which is fine. Perhaps she thinks this is covered adequately in McCall's wiki, which she regards as authoritative.

She is under no obligation to answer really, but at least one inquiring mind wants to know... does she think her job as a journalist is only to pass on what the prosecution alleges?

 

[christianahannah]

Really christistianahannah? You would be okay with a prosecutor who broke laws to get you into prison and then accused you of a crime he had no evidence for? Really? If you're not a guilter, then why don't you accept these long-established facts?

Of course no one (myself included) would be okay with a prosecutor who broke laws to get someone into prison and then accuse them of a crime there is no evidence for.

If Mignini broke laws concerning the prosecution of Amanda and Raffaele can you be specific as to what they were? (Or were they the articles and paragraphs you linked?)

 

[Bill Williams]

.
One thing I am certain of, if they themselves, or their kids, were treated the way Raffaele and Amanda have been treated, they would be screaming about the unfairness of it.

I have known, and know many people, that have one set of rules for themselves, and another completely different set of rules for everybody else. In my opinion most of the guilters are like that.
.

Reading your post I can understand your sentiments. However, my thoughts always drift to the Kercher family; Meredith just like Amanda was studying abroad and just like Amanda had been in Italy only a few weeks. Yes you and others will state Guede is responsible, but for me that doesn’t change my focus on the Kercher family and their life sentence.

Then the Kerchers are not classic guilters.

I can agree with CoulsdonUK 85%, with the caveat that I hope he is not implying that it is an either/or....

One either.....

"states Guede is responsible...."​

Or....

"focuses on the Kerchers and their life sentence."​

This very definitely can be (and in my opinion IS) a both/and. In the meantime many are trying to make sure that the tragedy in Perugia in 2007 is not compounded by the wrongful prosecution of innocents. Heck, Lyle Kercher said that.....

 

[Grinder]

You are bored by this topic but you keep on saying things that show you know nothing of the position of the piazza compared to the open parking lot. Comparing a passing car on a road near Nara's to four lanes converging at a major intersection near Grimana is the first area you might want to examine. Then examine the kiosk that sold mostly papers in the day.You will learn that the vendor inside the kiosk wouldn't have a side view to see the bench or more importantly the view to the gate.The Piazza is also much further from the cottage and apart from the traffic there is also a 3 story building blocking the way. So even before we talk of screams understand that the barking in the valley and the new tenants talking outside the cottage cannot be heard from Grimana but can be heard from the parking lot easily.

The biggest issue is that even if Nara could hear a scream and Curatolo couldn't her testimony doesn't have any probative value. She didn't know the time. She had the day wrong. She didn't go to the police but rather the media. She didn't see anybody and could add anything to finding the killers.

The kiosk operator is fine for establishing that Curatolo was there but nothing more.

Sometime back you referred to Nara being used to the street noise from traffic. Do you recall?

I doubt that the new renters can easily be heard in the parking lot, but again it doesn't really matter since Nara had no time, date or identification.

The woman that saw the black man running at around 10:15 -30 provided something of value. Of course at that time Curatolo had the kids in the plaza.

It is handy that he noted the exact time he arrived and left but never noted the kids being gone much less when.

Which bench did Curatolo sit on?

 

[Mary_H]

Of course no one (myself included) would be okay with a prosecutor who broke laws to get someone into prison and then accuse them of a crime there is no evidence for.

If Mignini broke laws concerning the prosecution of Amanda and Raffaele can you be specific as to what they were? (Or were they the articles and paragraphs you linked?)

Yes, it was all in my post.

 

[JREF2010]

Since Nara hearing a loud scream is 1 of the keys to the prosecution theory of a late Time of Death in The Murder of Meredith Kercher,
I'd like to add this passage from The Old Perugai Shock to the discussion, as it seems like Nara knew Meredith before...




Never recall reading that Nara had seen Meredith in person before and that Mez had a swollen lip in her last weeks of life,
nor that it was 2 men, not a guy and a girl she heard running that night...

Franks writings were the best. He spoke to her more than once, being a local guy, even video taped her..... I didn't recall the swollen lip comment either.

Maybe Frank realized the "fake investigation" was only for the parade and crucifying of two college kids with "fake witnesses", then there's no more to be found from flimsy testimony the prosecution prop's up, fooling the higher courts (who are too busy to read all the details.)

Its scary, imo, Frank was just starting other articles, of deaths and beatings in the Perugia area prisons, when Toto died. And "the pack" came looking after Frank too, no surprise there. Look at what great lengths Migninni and the pack have done to silence his writing.

 

[davefoc]

Of course no one (myself included) would be okay with a prosecutor who broke laws to get someone into prison and then accuse them of a crime there is no evidence for.

If Mignini broke laws concerning the prosecution of Amanda and Raffaele can you be specific as to what they were? (Or were they the articles and paragraphs you linked?)

I am only a casual participant in this thread and have far less knowledge of the case than most of the participants. I suspect that any of them could provide a more substantive answer to your question than I can.

But quite awhile ago when I was following this thread the issue of how the tabloids got the murder pictures came up. As I recall the pictures didn't seem to match any of the pictures that were taken by the official photographer. I recall a photograph of Mignini walking around the crime scene with a point and shoot camera. The probable situation is that Mignini provided some of his pictures to the tabloids. Would that be a crime by itself? If he sold pictures to the tabloids while he was being paid in his official role as a prosecutor for pictures that presumably he didn't hold the copyright to would that be a crime? If he released pictures before it was legally allowed to release those pictures would that have been a crime?

Of course, numerous details about the crime were leaked to the press that turned out to be false and it appears that they were known to be false that were extremely damaging to Knox and Sollecito. That sounds like a crime was committed against Knox and Solecito to me. If those leaks could be tied to Mignini would Mignini be guilty of a crime for that?

A lot of the problem with pinning down criminal acts by Mignini is that it appears the Italian justice system reeks of good old boy syndrome to a bizarre level and the notion that anybody could investigate Mignini for issues like these looks like a non-starter. When Mignini can prosecute people including reporters and Knox family members for criticizing him it looks pretty obvious that something is seriously rotten in the part of the Italian justice system that Mignini is part of.

 

[Briars]

The biggest issue is that even if Nara could hear a scream and Curatolo couldn't her testimony doesn't have any probative value. She didn't know the time. She had the day wrong. She didn't go to the police but rather the media. She didn't see anybody and could add anything to finding the killers.

The kiosk operator is fine for establishing that Curatolo was there but nothing more.

Sometime back you referred to Nara being used to the street noise from traffic. Do you recall?

I doubt that the new renters can easily be heard in the parking lot, but again it doesn't really matter since Nara had no time, date or identification.

The woman that saw the black man running at around 10:15 -30 provided something of value. Of course at that time Curatolo had the kids in the plaza.

It is handy that he noted the exact time he arrived and left but never noted the kids being gone much less when.

Which bench did Curatolo sit on?

Nara would be used to street noise every of couple hours there might be a car leaving the underground or parking lot above. The two lane road has cars passing, in between it is pretty quiet and yes you can hear the tenants talking in front of the cottage. The Piazza has far more traffic noise right next to it. Curatolo said he saw them behind the court near the wall when he arrived after 9:30. Clearly he testifies he didn't watch them continously but observed them later and then noted they were gone sometime after 11:30. His bench is to the right of the kiosk next to the lamp post, The railing is further to the right and back a few feet impossible for someone in the kiosk to observe. As far as times not being noticed exactly by Curatolo. Amanda tried to push her dinner hour to 11pm which should be of interest to you.

 

[acbytesla]

Apologies,

But does CNN think she's innocent? That's a different question than if CNN is "pro- or anti-Amanda.

I'm looking for the time when this is judged on the evidence. CNN's Jeffery Toobin tends to do that, and he has repeatedly said that there is no evidence even suggesting that they might have been involved.

I'd like to see Toobin, Morgan, Nadeau, Burnett, and Anderson in a room together and listen to what they come up with.

I think you nailed it Bill. CNN is not pro guilt or pro innocence. As a Network or as a group, I don't think they are a monolith at all. I actually don't think Cuomo is vested in the opinion that Amanda is guilty either. I do think he was both rough and lazy iinterviewing Amanda asking guilter like questions.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Nara would be used to street noise every of couple hours there might be a car leaving the underground or parking lot above. The two lane road has cars passing, in between it is pretty quiet and yes you can hear the tenants talking in front of the cottage. The Piazza has far more traffic noise right next to it. Curatolo said he saw them behind the court near the wall when he arrived after 9:30. Clearly he testifies he didn't watch them continously but observed them later and then noted they were gone sometime after 11:30. His bench is to the right of the kiosk next to the lamp post, The railing is further to the right and back a few feet impossible for someone in the kiosk to observe. As far as times not being noticed exactly by Curatolo. Amanda tried to push her dinner hour to 11pm which should be of interest to you.

Why, because you think Meredith died around 11PM? So what was in her stomach 5 hours after eating? What about the people waiting for the tow truck?

 

[Grinder]

Nara would be used to street noise every of couple hours there might be a car leaving the underground or parking lot above. The two lane road has cars passing, in between it is pretty quiet and yes you can hear the tenants talking in front of the cottage. The Piazza has far more traffic noise right next to it. Curatolo said he saw them behind the court near the wall when he arrived after 9:30. Clearly he testifies he didn't watch them continously but observed them later and then noted they were gone sometime after 11:30. His bench is to the right of the kiosk next to the lamp post, The railing is further to the right and back a few feet impossible for someone in the kiosk to observe. As far as times not being noticed exactly by Curatolo. Amanda tried to push her dinner hour to 11pm which should be of interest to you.

Briars I just heard that a woman has come forward saying that on the night O.J.'s ex-wife was killed she thinks she heard a scream but doesn't know what time it was and didn't see anybody. Think that would have changed the verdict?

Curatolo was a heroin addict on heroin every day including that night. when asked if he had seen anything at the time he said no. He was too far away from the edge of the court to see them clearly in mid day much less at night.

He originally said that he arrive at 9:30 (later he said 9:27) and that they were there until just before midnight. The time was adjusted because Massei said the disco buses were said to be gone by 11:30 so it must have been 11:30.

He said he saw them when he looked up but never said that they were gone at any time when he looked up.

He never identified them except in court when they were the only ones sitting at the defense table.

Nara didn't see anything. She didn't come forward the next day when the police were all over the cottage. She must have heard them talking about the murder as we know she could hear anything said outside. She got the day wrong. She never saw a clock even though she woke up (most people look at a bedside clock), heard the worst scream of her life and then made tea which takes time and usually there is a clock or clocks in the kitchen.

Whether it is possible she could hear a scream and Curatolo is a red herring. It doesn't matter.

 

[Grinder]

Why, because you think Meredith died around 11PM? So what was in her stomach 5 hours after eating? What about the people waiting for the tow truck?

Careful it is the duodenum not the stomach. Don't worry about them because they are all deaf or not paying attention or the car windows were too thick.

As has been pointed out about a million times, the PGP can't put together a reasonable time line that fits with the witnesses they defend.

 

[acbytesla]

I think you and others here can't see the elephant in the room. She is a lousy spokesperson for herself. Many here deny what she herself admits, such as that she could remember details of the evening and night.

He may not know diddly about the case but he still can see how her performances impact him and that is significant.

That is why I would use her as a spokesperson on the YT video campaign.



Bill of all people you should know that life isn't fair.

I think your opinion is overly harsh Grinder, while I agree that her performances in her interview can improve, I see her getting better and better.

I do however like the idea of Amanda doing YouTube videos but not necessarily for the reason you are describing.

It would allow Amanda to be able control the content of the message and not have it edited so it makes great television. I think she should review all of her interviews and pick out the important questions about the case and address them. I think she should create her videos about her life now in Seattle with her family, friends and school, portraying herself as the normal girl next door we all know her to be. I also think she should do these videos in both English and Italian..