Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[LashL]

This thread has been reopened on moderated status. Please, everyone, stick to your Membership Agreement, keep things civil, and do not import arguments from other boards.

This thread is also a further continuation from previous threads here, here , here , and here.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

8th December 2012: Thread has been taken off [Moderated] status. A warning has been issued for this thread, please ensure you take heed of it, see: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8829598#post8829598

Posted By: Darat

 

[Chris_Halkides]

lack of DNA

We believe what we want, but didn't some scientist prove that Knox could not be guilty because the lack of DNA evidence at the crime scene?

Bill,

I would put the emphasis a little bit differently. The two independent forensic scientists found major faults with the prosecution's case. The lack of Amanda's or Raffaele's DNA in Meredith's room is very difficult to reconcile with their culpability. I would say that the lack of food in Meredith's duodenum comes closer to being proof of innocence.

 

[Rolfe]

Er, what? What school did she go to, then? St. Paul's?

Cannot recall. It was posted some months ago on TJMK, and it was the first time that I really "caught" that this was a culture war. I am from the US, so do not know about these schools.

I looked it up. Old Palace School, Croydon. Certainly not your local comp. Fee-paying, fairly upmarket. I used to live quite near there and I've never heard of it, but that doesn't mean anything. I checked it in the school league tables and although it's well outside the top hundred it's not terrible. You could do better even in Croydon itself though, and it's very also-ran in the context of London as a whole. It's certainly not St. Paul's by a very long chalk. I just think the comment about Plato's Republic is beyond pretentious.

Rolfe.

 

[Grinder]

Welcome back all.

Hard to believe the universe was able to survive.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Was wondering if this will have any bearing whatsoever on SC appeal?

But on Monday, an Italian appelate court decided that Mignini's case was heard by the wrong panel. The previous ruling against Mignini was discharged, with the court saying the case should have instead been heard by a panel in Turin.

At this point, the Turin court has not scheduled a hearing on the case against Mignini.

Somehow, I think they never will.

http://www.king5.com/news/cities/seattle/Amanda-Knox-prosecutor-wins-his-own-appeal-134346513.html

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited to remove hotlinked image.

 

[pilot padron]

Can't Wait

Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.

During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.

Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday

 

[smkovalinksy]

Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.

During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.

Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday

I always had great respect for Mignini. He has that classical air about him, very Catholic and Kantian and serious. He loves Perugia, and he does seek truth and justice, from within his own purview.

I think he is profoundly handsome, as well. (mods took the picture down ) I always empathized greatly with him, even though I did not agree with him on many things. I defended him on websleuths and Now Public News to the point where I annoyed and greatly vexed many people. I was not dying to see him convicted. I do not want his theory to win with the Supreme Court, but I have never vilified him.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Welcome back all.

Hard to believe the universe was able to survive.

To you, as well, kind sir. Ha, yes, a bit of withdrawal from this thread...

 

[Grinder]

He wasn't found innocent only escaped because of technicality of where to charge him.

smkovalinksy - I'm very surprised by your feelings about him. His treatment of Preston and Spezi would be enough for me to believe he is a bully but the sex orgy - satanic rite - sex game gone bad - theories make him seem like a nut.

Whether he will be found guilty again or not, I never understood with his background why they didn't replace him.

The fact that Preston's experience was documented before this case makes it more than a coincidence how the interrogation was conducted.

As for looks...eye of the beholder.

 

[Grinder]

Quick followup: Mignini reading the Daily Mail story about the noise ticket was below low. His characterizations of Amanda were beyond the pale. His blaming the media in the last trial was so hypocritical. Charging her parents with calunnia and the reporter from the WS Herald was over the top. His threatening all those people with calunnia and having Frank's blog shut down reek of thuggish behavior.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.

During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.

Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday

My feelings about Mignini remain unchanged. He got off on a technicality. The decision changes nothing with regard to his actions.

 

[pilot padron]

If you really feel that way about Prosecutor Mignini

My feelings about Mignini remain unchanged. He got off on a technicality. The decision changes nothing with regard to his actions.

Then I am sure you can quickly and easily understand why so many people, including the Italian crowd who loudly booed outside after the verdict, justly feel exactly as you feel about Prosecutor Mignini, but now about Knox and Sollecito.

The decision of Judge Hellmann changes nothing with regard to Knox and Sollecito's actions either.
In fact, Judge Hellmann's verbal statements after his TV cameras were turned off directly alluded to the possibility that Knox and Sollecito knew a lot more about Meredith's death than Judge Hellmann's views of the evidence proved to him and his jurors

BTW:
Many newer readers may not be aware of just how vicious the vitriol toward Prosecutor Mignini was here.
May I suggest a quick search using tags that will quickly show some of the horrid names he was sadly vilified with here.
All this simply because he believed Knox and Sollicito were very guilty.
He simply did his best.
He simply did no more than perform his legally defined duty to show the Courts why he so believed.

 

[Kaosium]

Bill,

I would put the emphasis a little bit differently. The two independent forensic scientists found major faults with the prosecution's case. The lack of Amanda's or Raffaele's DNA in Meredith's room is very difficult to reconcile with their culpability. I would say that the lack of food in Meredith's duodenum comes closer to being proof of innocence.

I still wonder if the Conti-Vecchiotti Report did more to discredit the rest of the forensics than just the DNA. Frank Sfarzo's account of their presentation in court is extremely damning to the prosecution:

Half of the time was dedicate to criticizing the work of the police. Criticizing is not really the right word. It was a real attack, a massacre of the whole police, scientific or not.

Stefano Conti showed the movements inside the house, from the video of November 2. He pointed out that while the biologists were collecting the evidence, any sort of non scientific people –in a sweater, in a coat– were walking around, passing from room to room. People who looked not to really have a function, a purpose, a discipline.

Conti was particularly struck by one person who was using his foot to indicate something beside the body. Or by another person who at one point said ‘it’s all absurd… disorganization beyond belief’ (and if they say that…). Or by the notorious opening of the door downstairs with kicks, ending up with the explosion of the glass.

The forensic people, then: suits half opened; evidence grabbed with the hands, even when they had tweezers in their other hand; gloves not changed; up to three stains (even if close to each other) collected with one buffer; evidence stored into plastic bags; blood traces completely removed; gloves and shoe covers not changed; a garment shacked in the air by Stefanoni. For December 18, then, even the re-appearing piece of bra, the main evidence, was collected with dirty gloves.

He was very clear: first he recalled the guidelines, then he showed the way they acted. Result: for Stefano Conti, everything that shouldn’t have been done, was done. And this is just what happened under the cameras. Imagine what happened when nobody was filming…

All these things had been extensively described by the defense, and are very familiar to the followers of the case. But this time it’s not the defense saying these things, this time it is Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti, scientists for the court.

Thus while the DNA report didn't suggest proof of Amanda and Raffaele's innocence, it undermined as well the rest of the 'evidence' the prosecution gathered, as well as demonstrated their desperation to 'find' something from either of them that could be tied to that murder room.

 

[Kaosium]

Prosecutor Mignini has always been vilified and held in very low regard here.
His conviction and sentence (suspended) in the lower Court was given undue emphasis, and endlessly used to argue Knox innocence.

During the prosecution of Knox and Sollecito, the serial murder case for which the Prosecutor was charged with abuse of power was often cited by the defense as evidence of Mignini's inability to play fair in the Knox/Sollecito trial.

Therefore, I anxiously await reaction here to the Prosecutor winning his Appeal last Monday

He started about two dozen extra investigations on various people criticizing his 'method' of digging up dead bodies to check their haircut and pants sizes to 'solve' a string of murders a generation old. He had them either conspiring with or actually being (in Mario Spezi's case) the Monster of Florence. He had the conviction quashed because it was decided he'd pissed so many people off in Florence he couldn't get a fair trial there. His hope is that no one else will want to tangle with the rattlesnake.

So what makes you think that will change much of anyone's opinion on him being corrupt and unhinged?

 

[Kaosium]

I always had great respect for Mignini. He has that classical air about him, very Catholic and Kantian and serious. He loves Perugia, and he does seek truth and justice, from within his own purview.

I think he is profoundly handsome, as well. (mods took the picture down ) I always empathized greatly with him, even though I did not agree with him on many things. I defended him on websleuths and Now Public News to the point where I annoyed and greatly vexed many people. I was not dying to see him convicted. I do not want his theory to win with the Supreme Court, but I have never vilified him.

There was a time I entertained a similar view of Mignini, deontological but simply deluded in this case, but further reflection suggested to me that was nothing but a fraud. He's a fundamentally dishonest man in my view, and will change the world (or the evidence) rather than ever change his mind about anything important to him.

I will admit the 'thinking in Latin' part is pretty cool if true though!

 

[smkovalinksy]

He wasn't found innocent only escaped because of technicality of where to charge him.

smkovalinksy - I'm very surprised by your feelings about him. His treatment of Preston and Spezi would be enough for me to believe he is a bully but the sex orgy - satanic rite - sex game gone bad - theories make him seem like a nut.

Whether he will be found guilty again or not, I never understood with his background why they didn't replace him.

The fact that Preston's experience was documented before this case makes it more than a coincidence how the interrogation was conducted.

As for looks...eye of the beholder.

Well, you are probably right - I have a predisposition to be in awe of, and tender toward, that sort of Italian machismo, which speaks more to my past than to anything objective. It has very little to do with justice, and he did treat Preston terribly, and likely did get off on a technicality. Do you think they may still take up the case?

 

[smkovalinksy]

There was a time I entertained a similar view of Mignini, deontological but simply deluded in this case, but further reflection suggested to me that was nothing but a fraud. He's a fundamentally dishonest man in my view, and will change the world (or the evidence) rather than ever change his mind about anything important to him.

I will admit the 'thinking in Latin' part is pretty cool if true though!

Yes, I think I have given him too much credit; almost felt sorry for him, somehow, as he seems to be swimming against the postmodern world. But dishonesty is nothing to admire.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Then I am sure you can quickly and easily understand why so many people, including the Italian crowd who loudly booed outside after the verdict, justly feel exactly as you feel about Prosecutor Mignini, but now about Knox and Sollecito.

The decision of Judge Hellmann changes nothing with regard to Knox and Sollecito's actions either.
In fact, Judge Hellmann's verbal statements after his TV cameras were turned off directly alluded to the possibility that Knox and Sollecito knew a lot more about Meredith's death than Judge Hellmann's views of the evidence proved to him and his jurors

BTW:
Many newer readers may not be aware of just how vicious the vitriol toward Prosecutor Mignini was here.
May I suggest a quick search using tags that will quickly show some of the horrid names he was sadly vilified with here.
All this simply because he believed Knox and Sollicito were very guilty.
He simply did his best.
He simply did no more than perform his legally defined duty to show the Courts why he so believed.

I think Preston's pieces about the Monster of Florence affair, and the subsequent indictment/conviction of Mignini, made many feel that he was in fact fundamentally dishonest and underhanded. All preceded the affair with Knox and Sollecito, and they of course have nothing remotely similar in their own pasts, so the analogy does not hold. Do you think Hellmann's motivation report will indicate that they too got off on a technicality?

 

[pilot padron]

Do not mean to be pedantic, but......

Bill,

I would put the emphasis a little bit differently. The two independent forensic scientists found major faults with the prosecution's case. The lack of Amanda's or Raffaele's DNA in Meredith's room is very difficult to reconcile with their culpability. I would say that the lack of food in Meredith's duodenum comes closer to being proof of innocence.

Wouldn't it be much more accurate to state that the lack of dna.... that met the collection and testing standards of the two experts that the Judge had chosen to review the case?

Would your statement about lack of Knox's and particularly lack of Sollecito's dna in Meredith's room be accurate enough to be acceptable to a faculty advisor for a PhD candidate's dissertation ???

Or does it just pass the much, much less stringent Blog/Forum standards for 'close enough' accuracy ??

 

[Machiavelli]

He started about two dozen extra investigations on various people criticizing his 'method' of digging up dead bodies to check their haircut and pants sizes to 'solve' a string of murders a generation old.

I don't understand why you think there is something wrong with that.

Moreover, I think Mignini is right in the Narducci case.
For the sake of correct iformation, Mignini did not start the investigation: the investigation was started in Florence and it was Giuttari who brought the wiretapping part to the attention of Mignini, to escape the power of Questura of Florence.

He had them either conspiring with or actually being (in Mario Spezi's case) the Monster of Florence. He had the conviction quashed because it was decided he'd pissed so many people off in Florence he couldn't get a fair trial there.

It's not entirely correct to word it like that: not only he had his conviction canceled, but also his indictment and charges. This is not technically a quashing. And this is not a technicality. This is the fundamental ground of legitimacy on which his defense was based.
It is not correct to state that his trial was moved to another court: his trial was declared void and null. The investigation file collected on him and Giuttari is transferred to another jurisdiction: the Procura of Turin will decide what to do with it, how to use it to investigate whatever or whoever they think, whether there is material to ask for achiviation or formulizing charges on that material.

His hope is that no one else will want to tangle with the rattlesnake.

To me, the interesting point is that the file includes the Narducci investigation file in it, which was seized and included in the Mignini's trial file. Now the Narducci file could be re-opened again. In my opinion - but also in the opinions of others - the seizure of the Narducci investigation file was the actual purpose for the very existence of a Mignini-Giuttari investigation. The trial against Mignini and Giuttari in other way was an expedient for seizing and locking the other investigation file.
The Narducci file is the real rattlesnake nest.