Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[davefoc]

...

I think it is incorrect to study any statements made by Knox at 1:45 or 5:45 on November 6th, 2007 as these statements were ruled by The Italian Supreme Court as inadmissible and I think they even deemed them to be obtained illegally. Nuff said. Massei screwed the pooch by ignoring the Supreme Court.

I've made this argument before, but maybe it was so lame that nobody noticed.

I think it is probably legally possible for statements to be ruled inadmissible against a defendant in a murder prosecution while that defendant still could be found guilty for a crime she committed when she made the statement.

FWIW, I found what looked like a reliable source that said that the first statement could only be used against another individual and not Knox because she wasn't represented by a lawyer.

If I understood the source correctly the second statement could not be used at all because by that time she was a suspect and she wasn't represented by a lawyer.

I had a hard time finding a link to the translated police statements but here it is together with quotes of the parts where she accuses Lumumba. I am sure most people people know where the statement was but I thought I'd list it again since I had such a hard time finding it.

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/miscellaneous/knox_statements.zip


1:45 am statement

Last Thursday 1st November, day on which I usually work, while I was in the apartment of my boyfriend Raffaele, at about 20.30 I received a message from Patrick on my mobile, telling me that that evening the pub would remain closed because there were no people, therefore I didn’t have to go to work.

I replied to the message saying that we would meet immediately, therefore I went out telling my boyfriend that I had to go to work. I wish to state first that in the afternoon I had smoked a joint with Raffaele, therefore I felt confused because I do not usually make use of narcotics nor harder drugs.

I met Patrick soon after at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana and we went home. I do not remember if Meredith was already there or if she came later. I find it difficult to remember those moments but Patrick had sex with Meredith with whom he was infatuated but I do not remember well if Meredith had been threatened before. I vaguely remember that he killed her.

5:45 am statement

I wish to relate spontaneously what happened because these events have deeply bothered me and I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi where I work periodically. I met him in the evening of November 1st 2007, after sending him a reply message saying “I will see you”. We met soon after at about 21.00 at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana. We went to my apartment in Via della Pergola n. 7. I do not clearly remember if Meredith was already at home or if she came later, what I can say is that Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith’s room, while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I cannot remember how long they stayed together in the room but I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and as I was scared I plugged up my hears. Then I do not remember anything, I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds too because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened.

I have met Patrick this morning, in front of the Università Per Stranieri and he has asked me some questions, to be more accurate he wanted to know what the Policemen had asked me. I think he has also asked me if I wanted to see some journalists, maybe in order to know if I knew anything about Meredith’s death.- I am not sure if Raffaele was there as well that night but I clearly remember that I woke up at my boyfriend’s home, in his bed and that I came back home in the morning when I found the door of the apartment open. When I woke up in the morning of November 2nd I was in bed with my boyfriend.

It is acknowledged that KNOX repeatedly brings her hands on her head and shakes it.

Read confirmed and undersigned at the time and in the place mentioned above.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I really hope Amanda can recoup the financial lose that her family incurred during those 4 years. I guess many supporter also like to hear (or pay to read/watch) her story. But I haven't heard any interview/book/movie deal. Any insight when or ever she will break silence?

I agree that the finances should be recouped. The latest I have read is that Amanda is catching up on living and needs to do that before any book writing. I do hope she gets a good deal after an ordeal that cost her 4 years of her life, and more, if one counts the aftermath.

 

[davefoc]

This is a more specific statement on the admissibility of Knox's November 6 Statements to the police. I couldn't find it on the current Perugia Shock website but there is a summary on the Friends of Amanda site.

On April 24, Perugia Shock, the most comprehensive English-language blog on the Meredith Kercher case, summarized the Italian Supreme Court's position on Knox's statements as follows: "the statements you made at 1.45 can only be used contra alios (against another person). As a result of those statements, the interrogation was suspended and you became 'indagata'(a suspect). The 'spontaneous statements' made at 5.45 am are not admissible against you or against other suspects because you had already become 'indagata' and you did not have legal protection."

http://friendsofamanda.org/files/amanda_knox_case_summary_notes.html

This seems pretty clear assuming it is accurate. The 5:45 am statement could not be used as evidence against Knox or Lumumba. Is it possible that anything in the statement could still constitute a crime? The argument might be that even though the statement couldn't be used against Lumumba in a trial it could still be seen as a false statement that caused police to arrest Lumumba.

I think this aspect of the discussion is largely moot (but still interesting). Even if it was theoretically possible for Knox to have committed a crime when she made the statements, my personal, non-lawyer view, is that both statements are too equivocal and non-specific to serve as the basis of a charge of making a false statement to the police in the US. And when coupled with the apparent facts surrounding the statements and the fact that whatever they may have implied was unambiguously recanted within the same day it seems pretty clear to me that the calunnia conviction is bogus and shouldn't stand.

 

[RoseMontague]

This is a more specific statement on the admissibility of Knox's November 6 Statements to the police. I couldn't find it on the current Perugia Shock website but there is a summary on the Friends of Amanda site.



http://friendsofamanda.org/files/amanda_knox_case_summary_notes.html

This seems pretty clear assuming it is accurate. The 5:45 am statement could not be used as evidence against Knox or Lumumba. Is it possible that anything in the statement could still constitute a crime? The argument might be that even though the statement couldn't be used against Lumumba in a trial it could still be seen as a false statement that caused police to arrest Lumumba.

I think this aspect of the discussion is largely moot (but still interesting). Even if it was theoretically possible for Knox to have committed a crime when she made the statements, my personal, non-lawyer view, is that both statements are too equivocal and non-specific to serve as the basis of a charge of making a false statement to the police in the US. And when coupled with the apparent facts surrounding the statements and the fact that whatever they may have implied was unambiguously recanted within the same day it seems pretty clear to me that the calunnia conviction is bogus and shouldn't stand.

Yes, that is an accurate quote from the SC ruling that I have posted here previously. The Perugian court decided that the SC was simply talking about the other charges since they did not refer to the calumnia directly and allowed any and all statements in the record because of the calumnia.

Amanda's appeal also argued this, yet Hellmann's court let it stand, and found her guilty of calumnia. If Amanda appeals the calumnia conviction, this will be the cornerstone of her appeal. From Amanda's first appeal:

The Assize Court misconstrued the principles of the then Supreme Court and the incorrect application of Article. 63 CPP, led not only to breach constitutional rights of the accused under Articles. 2, 24 and 111 of the Constitution, a partial amicable discussions with the taking of evidence based on the unusable items.

The "spontaneous declarations" of 6 November 2007 at 5.54 Costituto have the basis of all disputes referred to the hearing on June 12, 2009, and then assumed the material element of the crime of which the letter F). As discussed below, Amanda Knox, the place and time of statements, never intended voluntarily involve third in the fact criminal.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I think what offends me is the nuance I have picked up there, that this has a lot to do with class.

Not economically, but culturally.

I once read something by Naomi Wolf, where she recalled that in her school, girls could drink, smoke pot, have sex, providing it was done on a sailboat when one's family was vacationing on Martha's Vineyard. Students and faculty alike disapproved, however, and labeled as "bad", the girls who did these same things behind bowling alleys, etc.

I think it was Rolfe who brought up the fact that Amanda's pot smoking and sexual adventures had branded her to the PG crowd; yet Meredith had sex with a drug dealer downstairs, smoked pot and hash, and had once received a warning for public intoxication. But she had the right education and family, whereas Amanda had the wrong ones. I guess this sort of attitude really does disgust me at this point. Justice which is not blind is not justice.

 

[geebee2]

One point about Cannabis - I think it's very easy to grow this yourself in a Mediterranean climate. A few years ago I visited a grown-up niece who lives on Menorca. She has three young children. I was slightly surprised to see Cannabis plants being grown quite openly just behind the house. It would seem that many quite respectable people grow Cannabis for personal use in these hot countries. Presumably the police are not very interested.

 

[smkovalinksy]

One point about Cannabis - I think it's very easy to grow this yourself in a Mediterranean climate. A few years ago I visited a grown-up niece who lives on Menorca. She has three young children. I was slightly surprised to see Cannabis plants being grown quite openly just behind the house. It would seem that many quite respectable people grow Cannabis for personal use in these hot countries. Presumably the police are not very interested.

Yes, I understand and agree. It is not the use of cannabis, but the way Knox and Kercher have been contrasted which is worrisome to me.

 

[Grinder]

I think what offends me is the nuance I have picked up there, that this has a lot to do with class.

Not economically, but culturally.

I once read something by Naomi Wolf, where she recalled that in her school, girls could drink, smoke pot, have sex, providing it was done on a sailboat when one's family was vacationing on Martha's Vineyard. Students and faculty alike disapproved, however, and labeled as "bad", the girls who did these same things behind bowling alleys, etc.

I think it was Rolfe who brought up the fact that Amanda's pot smoking and sexual adventures had branded her to the PG crowd; yet Meredith had sex with a drug dealer downstairs, smoked pot and hash, and had once received a warning for public intoxication. But she had the right education and family, whereas Amanda had the wrong ones. I guess this sort of attitude really does disgust me at this point.

Although I agree in general, they were to some extent responding to the FOA position that Amanda couldn't be involved because she had gone to Seattle Prep and was an honor student or was it dean's list at the University of Washington. I never liked that sort of argument because it has no value.

The PGP responded by sanctifying Meredith and creating a person that never existed. To me Meredith and Amanda were perfectly normal 20 year old college students. Amanda's writing has been excruciating for me to read but I've never seen emails written by Meredith. I would guess that she would do a better job with spelling and grammar, but it would only be a guess. The PGP also felt the need to bash the UW which is a higher rated school than Leeds but really we never needed to go there.

There is no doubt that many of PGP think Europeans are superior and that all Americans are boors, except of course those Americans that have lived in Europe like a certain translator.

Many of the PGP are very poor and think that the Knoxes are wealthy. Poor Michael can't afford a new computer. I really do feel bad for Michael. There many over there that I feel bad for.

From the little we know, it seems that Amanda was accomplished in a wider area of pursuits than Meredith, in that she spoke more languages, was more into sport and played more musical instruments. That is my impression only and perhaps I just missed Meredith's accomplishments.

Bottom line it shouldn't matter and it is a shame that they have done so much to try to demean Knox in particular and Americans in general.

They are still criticizing the color of her hats and the color of her boyfriend's pants, oh well.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Although I agree in general, they were to some extent responding to the FOA position that Amanda couldn't be involved because she had gone to Seattle Prep and was an honor student or was it dean's list at the University of Washington. I never liked that sort of argument because it has no value.
The PGP responded by sanctifying Meredith and creating a person that never existed. To me Meredith and Amanda were perfectly normal 20 year old college students. Amanda's writing has been excruciating for me to read but I've never seen emails written by Meredith. I would guess that she would do a better job with spelling and grammar, but it would only be a guess. The PGP also felt the need to bash the UW which is a higher rated school than Leeds but really we never needed to go there.

There is no doubt that many of PGP think Europeans are superior and that all Americans are boors, except of course those Americans that have lived in Europe like a certain translator.

Many of the PGP are very poor and think that the Knoxes are wealthy. Poor Michael can't afford a new computer. I really do feel bad for Michael. There many over there that I feel bad for.

From the little we know, it seems that Amanda was accomplished in a wider area of pursuits than Meredith, in that she spoke more languages, was more into sport and played more musical instruments. That is my impression only and perhaps I just missed Meredith's accomplishments.

Bottom line it shouldn't matter and it is a shame that they have done so much to try to demean Knox in particular and Americans in general.

They are still criticizing the color of her hats and the color of her boyfriend's pants, oh well.

Yes, I would agree with all. As for the highlighted part: No, I do not like that sort of argument , either; whichever side poses it.

 

[Rolfe]

But she (Meredith) had the right education and family, whereas Amanda had the wrong ones.

Did she really? The Kerchers don't seem very upper-drawer to me. A tabloid journalist? And Mrs. Kercher may well be a lovely person, but her "estuary English" accent is totally wrong side of the tracks.

Leeds university no doubt delivers high-quality education, but Oxbridge it ain't, let's face it. I don't know what school Meredith went to, but does anyone else, and more to the point does anyone on PMF know whether said school would be a "public school" or the local comp?

I think Meredith had the misfortune to be a murder victim. This seems to confer an extreme form of de mortuis nil nisi bonum in certain quarters, which involves portraying the deceased as a cross between Mother Theresa, Florence Nightingale and Joan of Arc. And Ninette de Valois and Iris Murdoch.

Rolfe.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

rebuttal

Although I agree in general, they were to some extent responding to the FOA position that Amanda couldn't be involved because she had gone to Seattle Prep and was an honor student or was it dean's list at the University of Washington. I never liked that sort of argument because it has no value.

Grinder,

I think you are overstating or interpreting the FOA position, and it might be helpful to cite a quotation or something specific from them, so that we can all examine it. Moreover, I think that pointing out that Amanda was a honor student was probably never intended to meant that she and Sollecito could not be involved. Such information serves to rebut character impeachment by the prosecution or pro-guilt commenters, along with the lack of anything in Amanda's past beyond a noise citation.

 

[Bill Thompson]

Mormons who faithful believe that the Hebrews came to the New World and are the ancestors of native americans say such mumbo jumbo about bad DNA work. Mormonism is a fantasy. DNA proves it wrong, but that will not stop the faithful.

I think if you faithfully believe Knox is a member of a sex cult that murdered this woman in a sex ritual gone wrong, then you are going to find experts who will supporty your fantasy.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Did she really? The Kerchers don't seem very upper-drawer to me. A tabloid journalist? And Mrs. Kercher may well be a lovely person, but her "estuary English" accent is totally wrong side of the tracks.

Leeds university no doubt delivers high-quality education, but Oxbridge it ain't, let's face it. I don't know what school Meredith went to, but does anyone else, and more to the point does anyone on PMF know whether said school would be a "public school" or the local comp?

I think Meredith had the misfortune to be a murder victim. This seems to confer an extreme form of de mortuis nil nisi bonum in certain quarters, which involves portraying the deceased as a cross between Mother Theresa, Florence Nightingale and Joan of Arc. And Ninette de Valois and Iris Murdoch.

Rolfe.

Granted. But from their perspective: I am recalling something I read on TJMK about the wonderful London day school MK attended, how her parents made certain that her education would be along the lines of Plato's Republic. That really stuck in my mind.

 

[Rolfe]

Granted. But from their perspective: I am recalling something I read on TJMK about the wonderful London day school MK attended, how her parents made certain that her education would be along the lines of Plato's Republic. That really stuck in my mind.

Er, what? What school did she go to, then? St. Paul's?

Rolfe.

 

[Fine]

Judge Carriere has reached a decision today. Cosima Serrano and her daughter Sabrina Misseri shall be tried on charges of killing fifteen year-old Sarah Scazzi. The trial begins in January.

Sabrina and Cosima were present in the courtroom this morning while the Gup made ​​known its decisions: thus remain in prison awaiting trial.

See: LaRepubblica.



///

 

[davefoc]

Yes, that is an accurate quote from the SC ruling that I have posted here previously. The Perugian court decided that the SC was simply talking about the other charges since they did not refer to the calumnia directly and allowed any and all statements in the record because of the calumnia.

Amanda's appeal also argued this, yet Hellmann's court let it stand, and found her guilty of calumnia. If Amanda appeals the calumnia conviction, this will be the cornerstone of her appeal. From Amanda's first appeal:

Thanks RoseMontaque, I know this stuff has been thoroughly discussed previously. I was mostly posting for my own purposes of refreshing my memory on why I came to the conclusions I did and then I found it difficult to find the police statements to reread them. Knox's handwritten statement is easy to find. I'm not sure why that would be so much easier to find than the police statements.

Your post also went to a question that I have been asking for awhile, "Which charges the statements were admissible for and why were they admissible?" Thank you.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Er, what? What school did she go to, then? St. Paul's?

Rolfe.

Cannot recall. It was posted some months ago on TJMK, and it was the first time that I really "caught" that this was a culture war. I am from the US, so do not know about these schools.

 

[Darat]

Once again this thread is requiring way above normal levels of Moderator Team attention. It is being closed until a Mod has time to do a clean-up. As ever do not try to continue this discussion elsewhere on the Forum until this thread is re-opened.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat