Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Ok the recent revelations about the cell phone have forced me to come up with Vixen level theories.

Here's my current theory:

Rudy was watching the cottage and knew what nights Amanda worked at Le Chic until 1 am, especially since he had visited her at her job.

Rudy set out to rob the cottage that night knowing the boys were out of town and seeing the girls weren't home after he scouted it several times.

He broke in through the window a bit before 21:00 just like at the law office.

Meredith came around 21:00 and this caught him off guard on the toilet. He tried to escape through the front door but discovered it locked, perhaps Meredith caught him before he could try to go out the window. The attack happened, Rudy lost control and it turned into sexual violence. Meredith was dead within 10-15 minutes.

Rudy grabbed the keys he knew he needed and fled in a panic. He went home and cleaned up.

His head cleared and he remembered that Amanda would be home after 1 am. He didn't want her discovering the body that night because (insert plausible reason here)? He went back and the first thing he did was cover the unsightly bloodied body that now horrified him. Then he went through the room and collected her phones so they wouldn't be heard ringing through the door. He locked her door behind him so Amanda would assume Meredith was sleeping.

It seems like a real stretch but I would like to see someone else put Rudy in the cottage at ~22:00 in a way that makes sense.

I don't buy he went back. Possible...sure, probable? I don't think so. But the rest sounds reasonable. Any idea when he arrived at the club that night?

 

[bagels]

I don't buy he went back. Possible...sure, probable? I don't think so. But the rest sounds reasonable. Any idea when he arrived at the club that night?

IIRC he was seen at the nightclub at 2 am. There's three choices that I can see:

1. The assertion that the two ~22:00 cell phone interactions happened at the cottage is wrong. They happened elsewhere, possibly at Rudy's house. After fiddling with the phones he took them out of the city proper to dump them.

2. After Meredith died he hung around the cottage for ~40 minutes doing nothing. Then started fiddling with her phones, then fled out the back way and dumped them.

3. After Meredith died he left, then came back later which is when he got the phones.

 

[acbytesla]

IIRC he was seen at the nightclub at 2 am. There's three choices that I can see:

1. The assertion that the two ~22:00 cell phone interactions happened at the cottage is wrong. They happened elsewhere, possibly at Rudy's house. After fiddling with the phones he took them out of the city proper to dump them.

2. After Meredith died he hung around the cottage for ~40 minutes doing nothing. Then started fiddling with her phones, then fled out the back way and dumped them.

3. After Meredith died he left, then came back later which is when he got the phones.

The 22:13 call almost absolutely did not take place anywhere inside the ancient city walls. The cottage, the ravine, the park, Lana's garden are all outside the city walls. Rudy's apartment is not. I am 99.999 percent sure that the phone was not there at that time.

 

[bagels]

The 22:13 call almost absolutely did not take place anywhere inside the ancient city walls. The cottage, the ravine, the park, Lana's garden are all outside the city walls. Rudy's apartment is not. I am 99.999 percent sure that the phone was not there at that time.

Yeah but I'm talking about the 21:58 and 22:00 interactions which supposedly connected to the same base station as the cottage, not the later 22:13 tower change. I'm saying, either that's not actually true (what's our source on this? The police say so?) Or it is true, and it just so happens that base station serves wherever else they were at (Rudy's house). Then Rudy leaves the city to dump the phone by 22:13.

 

[acbytesla]

Yeah but I'm talking about the 21:58 and 22:00 interactions which supposedly connected to the same base station as the cottage, not the later 22:13 tower change. I'm saying, either that's not actually true (what's our source on this? The police say so?) Or it is true, and it just so happens that base station serves wherever else they were at (Rudy's house). Then Rudy leaves the city to dump the phone by 22:13.

Maybe, but I doubt it. I'd have to go look at what antennas and the sector thathandled the call. Pretty sure that's impossible too. Go to http://perugia-injustice.blogspot.com and scroll down to the end. I made that blog a few years ago. Read the entry The Cell Towers. It show's the antenna location of the cell towers in relation to the cottage. Rudy's apartment is on the far side of the Lupatelli tower which would mean any calls at his apartment would get its signal from the Lupatelli tower antenna but by a different sector.

 

[Wattson]

Yeah but I'm talking about the 21:58 and 22:00 interactions which supposedly connected to the same base station as the cottage, not the later 22:13 tower change. I'm saying, either that's not actually true (what's our source on this? The police say so?) Or it is true, and it just so happens that base station serves wherever else they were at (Rudy's house). Then Rudy leaves the city to dump the phone by 22:13.

My theory is that Guede had to get the keys from Meredith's purse. As he did, he also grabbed both phones and quite possibly the $300 (mind of a thief). He put the phones in his pocket and the first 2 calls were pocket dials. He was not too far from the cottage when they came in but he was walking down in the trees along the road and didn't have service. As he got closer to the back gate the text came in and that's when he realized it was really dangerous to be in possession of the phones and tossed them into the garden.

 

[acbytesla]

My theory is that Guede had to get the keys from Meredith's purse. As he did, he also grabbed both phones and quite possibly the $300 (mind of a thief). He put the phones in his pocket and the first 2 calls were pocket dials. He was not too far from the cottage when they came in but he was walking down in the trees along the road and didn't have service. As he got closer to the back gate the text came in and that's when he realized it was really dangerous to be in possession of the phones and tossed them into the garden.

That's pretty much my theory as well.

 

[Annella]

Yeah but I'm talking about the 21:58 and 22:00 interactions which supposedly connected to the same base station as the cottage, not the later 22:13 tower change. I'm saying, either that's not actually true (what's our source on this? The police say so?) Or it is true, and it just so happens that base station serves wherever else they were at (Rudy's house). Then Rudy leaves the city to dump the phone by 22:13.

Maybe the downstairs ' crime scene' needs to be considered?

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-evidence-downstairs-apartment/

 

[Vixen]

It's not important to establish Rudy disposed of the phones. This is established self evidently by the fact that whoever killed Meredith disposed of the phones.

It is interesting that there is a 40 minute gap between the most probable time of death, and phone activity at ~22:00. I can think of no reason why Rudy wouldn't have immediately left the cottage after the attack. I always figured it was plausible the phones were at his house at that time but that appears improbable.

I wonder if Rudy left the house without the phones, then went back to the scene of the crime later for some reason and collected them then. This makes little sense, but perhaps it makes more sense than Rudy standing around for 40 minutes next to a dead body for no reason. It would also explain how he locked Meredith's door despite his bloody prints pointing away from it, because he didn't think to do that until his return trip when he'd no longer be leaving bloody prints. Maybe it was a tying up loose ends trip after the panic.

You have Rudy inside the cottage from circa 20:40 onwards, killing by 21:30 and the phone removed near or after 22:13 (over one and a half hours in the property).

If you look at my timeline at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11131041#post11131041

most of the commotion, as witnessed by independent external parties, happened circa 22:30 - 23:00.

Whilst it is sensible to consider 22:13 was when the murder happened, and the phone stolen immediately after, there is no logical reason to believe this is the only possibility. It's quite feasible, the phone was seized from Mez - maybe she was desperately trying to communicate help - put in someone's pocket, and the attack leading to murder started afterwards.

Prof Paoloni states the phone was pinged at a spot compatible with the Lana garden, but that is an opinion, and not set in stone, as masts bounce messages off each other as to which has the best reception ATT.

Massei concluded the phones were still at the cottage as of 22:13.

 

[bagels]

You have Rudy inside the cottage from circa 20:40 onwards, killing by 21:30 and the phone removed near or after 22:13 (over one and a half hours in the property).

If you look at my timeline at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11131041#post11131041

most of the commotion, as witnessed by independent external parties, happened circa 22:30 - 23:00.

Whilst it is sensible to consider 22:13 was when the murder happened, and the phone stolen immediately after, there is no logical reason to believe this is the only possibility. It's quite feasible, the phone was seized from Mez - maybe she was desperately trying to communicate help - put in someone's pocket, and the attack leading to murder started afterwards.

Prof Paoloni states the phone was pinged at a spot compatible with the Lana garden, but that is an opinion, and not set in stone, as masts bounce messages off each other as to which has the best reception ATT.

Massei concluded the phones were still at the cottage as of 22:13.

It is my understanding that based on the digestive evidence, for Meredith to still be alive at 22:00 would make her digestive system one of the most unusual in medical history.

Also you are correct that there was a lot of commotion outside the cottage at 22:30 - 23:20. There was a group of friends traveling in two cars, one of which broke down right outside the cottage, and the other car stayed with them to wait for the tow truck to arrive. The two truck came and took 15-20 minutes to load the car and leave. None of these witnesses reported seeing any activity whatsoever at the cottage or on the street.

The time Rudy spent in the cottage before Meredith arrived home is immaterial to the time he spent after IMO. He was a very casual burglar who took his time, got food and drinks from the fridge, possibly slept/relaxed on the furniture. This is what he did at the nursery and law office.

After Meredith returns the crime takes on a different dynamic. Now the time to consider is how long it takes for Rudy to attack Meredith, how long the attack occurs, and how long it takes him to complete his logistical actions after the attack before leaving (cleaning off his pants, scrounging through Meredith's belongings, locking the doors, etc).

I estimate his activity at the cottage post Meredith to take no more than 20 minutes. This means I have 40 minutes of time to account for that I am unable to. I am interested in anyone filling in this time period. I made an attempt above but it is of course problematic.

 

[Grinder]

You have Rudy inside the cottage from circa 20:40 onwards, killing by 21:30 and the phone removed near or after 22:13 (over one and a half hours in the property).

If you look at my timeline at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11131041#post11131041

most of the commotion, as witnessed by independent external parties, happened circa 22:30 - 23:00.

Whilst it is sensible to consider 22:13 was when the murder happened, and the phone stolen immediately after, there is no logical reason to believe this is the only possibility. It's quite feasible, the phone was seized from Mez - maybe she was desperately trying to communicate help - put in someone's pocket, and the attack leading to murder started afterwards.

Prof Paoloni states the phone was pinged at a spot compatible with the Lana garden, but that is an opinion, and not set in stone, as masts bounce messages off each other as to which has the best reception ATT.

Massei concluded the phones were still at the cottage as of 22:13.

Curatolo reported the kids were in the plaza between 22:30 - 23:00 or are you suggesting that was the exact time he read for 30 straight minutes without looking up or having a cigarette? Or are you suggesting he nodded out on heroin at that time?

What time murder? Nara (notwithstanding the credibility lack for hearing the most horrific scream and not noting the time when making the tea to calm down) report is what moved the TOD to 11:30 latest and Massei revising the testimony of Curatolo.

Did the tow truck driver see Koko and the olives?

 

[Grinder]

It is my understanding that based on the digestive evidence, for Meredith to still be alive at 22:00 would make her digestive system one of the most unusual in medical history.

I know this is not popular here but even 9 o'clock would be stretching normal digestion. For nothing to reach the duodenum it is odd after one hour. If the girls ate by 6:30 or even 7 some chyme should have been there by nine.

Also you are correct that there was a lot of commotion outside the cottage at 22:30 - 23:20. There was a group of friends traveling in two cars, one of which broke down right outside the cottage, and the other car stayed with them to wait for the tow truck to arrive. The two truck came and took 15-20 minutes to load the car and leave. None of these witnesses reported seeing any activity whatsoever at the cottage or on the street.

And while Nara heard footsteps she didn't hear any of the post murder Koko/olive activity.

The time Rudy spent in the cottage before Meredith arrived home is immaterial to the time he spent after IMO. He was a very casual burglar who took his time, got food and drinks from the fridge, possibly slept/relaxed on the furniture. This is what he did at the nursery and law office.

If the murder was a lone job and clearly not planned, then it might have taken some time for him to settle before leaving. Also if he had an accomplice they might have selectively cleaned that person's evidence

After Meredith returns the crime takes on a different dynamic. Now the time to consider is how long it takes for Rudy to attack Meredith, how long the attack occurs, and how long it takes him to complete his logistical actions after the attack before leaving (cleaning off his pants, scrounging through Meredith's belongings, locking the doors, etc).

That time as well.

I estimate his activity at the cottage post Meredith to take no more than 20 minutes. This means I have 40 minutes of time to account for that I am unable to. I am interested in anyone filling in this time period. I made an attempt above but it is of course problematic.

Well he might have had no fear of anybody coming for hours and after cleaning just tried to calm down.

When did Nara hear the scream? Had to be after 11:15 or the car/tow truck people would have heard it.

 

[query grind]

What time murder? Nara (notwithstanding the credibility lack for hearing the most horrific scream and not noting the time when making the tea to calm down) report is what moved the TOD to 11:30 latest and Massei revising the testimony of Curatolo.

Nara is credible because Koko also witnessed the scream, albeit in his unique way

Did the tow truck driver see Koko and the olives?

The driver didn't see the Koko, Koko didn't see the tow truck driver. They were in parallel universes.
Koko might be 90% unreliable: but he saw a woman screaming and a black man telling him he wasn't Moroccan.
However, the tow truck driver is 100% unreliable: he saw nothing

IF you wake at midnight, and hear a horse's feet,
Don't go drawing back the blind, or looking in the street,
Them that ask no questions isn't told a lie.
Watch the wall my darling while the Gentlemen go by.

Five and twenty ponies,
Trotting through the dark -
Brandy for the Parson, 'Baccy for the Clerk.
Laces for a lady; letters for a spy,
Watch the wall my darling while the Gentlemen go by!

Running round the woodlump if you chance to find
Little barrels, roped and tarred, all full of brandy-wine,
Don't you shout to come and look, nor use 'em for your play.
Put the brishwood back again - and they'll be gone next day !

If you see the stable-door setting open wide;
If you see a tired horse lying down inside;
If your mother mends a coat cut about and tore;
If the lining's wet and warm - don't you ask no more !

If you meet King George's men, dressed in blue and red,
You be careful what you say, and mindful what is said.
If they call you " pretty maid," and chuck you 'neath the chin,
Don't you tell where no one is, nor yet where no one's been !

Knocks and footsteps round the house - whistles after dark -
You've no call for running out till the house-dogs bark.
Trusty's here, and Pincher's here, and see how dumb they lie
They don't fret to follow when the Gentlemen go by !

'If You do as you've been told, 'likely there's a chance,
You'll be give a dainty doll, all the way from France,
With a cap of Valenciennes, and a velvet hood -
A present from the Gentlemen, along 'o being good !

Five and twenty ponies,
Trotting through the dark -
Brandy for the Parson, 'Baccy for the Clerk.
Them that asks no questions isn't told a lie -
Watch the wall my darling while the Gentlemen go by !

 

[Desert Fox]

The time Rudy spent in the cottage before Meredith arrived home is immaterial to the time he spent after IMO. He was a very casual burglar who took his time, got food and drinks from the fridge, possibly slept/relaxed on the furniture. This is what he did at the nursery and law office.

In a book many years ago of interviews with cops, the cops considered them to be the most dangerous kind. . . . Most likely to graduate to killing or murdering in the houses they rob. The cops however believed some stuff that is know to be BS (such as Satanists) so not sure how accurate them might be.

 

[acbytesla]

You have Rudy inside the cottage from circa 20:40 onwards, killing by 21:30 and the phone removed near or after 22:13 (over one and a half hours in the property).

If you look at my timeline at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=11131041#post11131041

most of the commotion, as witnessed by independent external parties, happened circa 22:30 - 23:00.

Whilst it is sensible to consider 22:13 was when the murder happened, and the phone stolen immediately after, there is no logical reason to believe this is the only possibility. It's quite feasible, the phone was seized from Mez - maybe she was desperately trying to communicate help - put in someone's pocket, and the attack leading to murder started afterwards.

Prof Paoloni states the phone was pinged at a spot compatible with the Lana garden, but that is an opinion, and not set in stone, as masts bounce messages off each other as to which has the best reception ATT.

Massei concluded the phones were still at the cottage as of 22:13.

Massei is an idiot. I have 20 years selling data communications equipment. My biggest customers were cellular carriers. It is remotely possible that the phones were still at the cottage at 10:13 but only remotely possible. Not a single call of Amanda's ever connected to that distant cell tower. And why would it Vixen? Step outside the cottage and you can easily see both the Lupatelli and the Aquila cell towers which are 172 and 194 meters respectively from the cottage. The Wind Tower is 1720 meters away and not visible. Think about it.

 

[Mike1711]

Please familiarise yourself with the court testimony before embarrassing yourself about the amnesia issue.

Oh dear. You're lost again.

My position is a statement about your inability to rationalise and not about court testimony.

 

[Desert Fox]

I know this is not popular here but even 9 o'clock would be stretching normal digestion. For nothing to reach the duodenum it is odd after one hour. If the girls ate by 6:30 or even 7 some chyme should have been there by nine.

Isn't it most likely that the girls simply were not accurate about the time but even so, 22:00 becomes problematic.

 

[Vixen]

I'm not so sure about this LJ. The direction and distance is really about the same as the park. So, it's not impossible. But I could not find a single call of Amanda's that connected to the Wind tower. I really wish I had the call antennas of all of the roommates particularly Meredith's. The very close Lupatelli and Aquila antennas seem be the logical antennas for every call.

They also have perfect lines of sight. So connecting to the Wind tower doesn't seem likely. I have thought if Meredith was sitting at her desk next to the window that it is possible at that one spot to maybe getting a stronger signal from the Wind antenna simply because the material blocking that signal was thinner and posed less an obstruction to the radio signals.

The rest is of course true. I'd also like to add the power of each antenna signal varies greatly. More urban areas have more antennas broadcasting at a lower power. Flatter less dense areas have fewer towers but they broadcast a stronger signal to cover greater distances.

Here's Filomena's:

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...7-11-03-Log-cellphone-Vodaphone-Romanelli.pdf

Mez':

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.c...cellphone-Vodafone-KercherM-English-phone.pdf

 

[Vixen]

Ok the recent revelations about the cell phone have forced me to come up with Vixen level theories.

Here's my current theory:

Rudy was watching the cottage and knew what nights Amanda worked at Le Chic until 1 am, especially since he had visited her at her job.

Rudy set out to rob the cottage that night knowing the boys were out of town and seeing the girls weren't home after he scouted it several times.

He broke in through the window a bit before 21:00 just like at the law office.

Meredith came around 21:00 and this caught him off guard on the toilet. He tried to escape through the front door but discovered it locked, perhaps Meredith caught him before he could try to go out the window. The attack happened, Rudy lost control and it turned into sexual violence. Meredith was dead within 10-15 minutes.

Rudy grabbed the keys he knew he needed and fled in a panic. He went home and cleaned up.

His head cleared and he remembered that Amanda would be home after 1 am. He didn't want her discovering the body that night because (insert plausible reason here)? He went back and the first thing he did was cover the unsightly bloodied body that now horrified him. Then he went through the room and collected her phones so they wouldn't be heard ringing through the door. He locked her door behind him so Amanda would assume Meredith was sleeping.

It seems like a real stretch but I would like to see someone else put Rudy in the cottage at ~22:00 in a way that makes sense.

You have ignored the experts' opinion that the attacker modified their actions in so many ways, that whilst it is always possible there was just one attacker, it was more probable there was more than one. For example, the attacker/s removed the victim's lower clothing, whilst at the same time holding one type of knife to her right neck, whilst restraining both her arms behind her back, put it down, pick up another type of knife to hold at the left neck. In addition, place hand over victim's lower face, and again over the fatal stab wound, in an attempt to asphyxiate, leaving bruising. All this with hardly any disturbance to the glass of water or postcards on the victim's desk. The perp also brought the victim to her knees, which was the position she received the fatal wound. All of this, for a "burglar interrupted" is more related to premeditation than a chance attack, which you call, "Rudy lost control". The attack was actually very controlled.

If "Rudy the perp was horrified", then it is rather incongruous he left the toilet unflushed, yet was priggish enough to cover the body. It is not the action of someone "in a panic".

You said previously Rudy had a stolen cellphone, which was confiscated by Milan police. IOW Rudy as a seasoned thief, would have almost automatically removed the back and disposed of the SIM cards. He would not have thrown the two phones away wholesale. OK, even in a panic, I cannot see it, if he is the local burglar, as you claim. The phones were wiped clean of fingerprints and DNA, so could just as easily been hidden or sold on the black market in the intervening days.

 

[Vixen]

My theory is that Guede had to get the keys from Meredith's purse. As he did, he also grabbed both phones and quite possibly the $300 (mind of a thief). He put the phones in his pocket and the first 2 calls were pocket dials. He was not too far from the cottage when they came in but he was walking down in the trees along the road and didn't have service. As he got closer to the back gate the text came in and that's when he realized it was really dangerous to be in possession of the phones and tossed them into the garden.

Problem is, Rudy's DNA was not found inside the bag (purse), which it almost certainly would have been, had he been rummaging around with blood stained hands. The court concluded he may have pushed the bag across, as his DNA was on the outside. Mez' phones may not have even been in her bag, she may have taken them out, as she rang home regularly (interesting that Rudy knew the details of Mez' mother's illness).

Looking for a key in order to lock the door, doesn't sound like someone particularly aware of danger.

Having had someone try to steal my suitcase at Heathrow, I looked into how best to keep your possessions secure in a public place and learnt that typically, pickpockets, suitcase thieves, snatch thieves (often on motorbikes) will have your stolen bag emptied within literally minutes with only the valuables retained and the bag disposed of. One such thief used an airport in Chicago to acquisition suitcases as soon as they came around on the baggage reclaim, whilst passengers were still going through arrivals, and he took them to the nearest Gents toilets and had them rifled, emptied and abandonned within minutes. So now, when I alight a plane, I race as fast as possible to the baggage reclaim and situate myself at the start where they come off, before anyone ever has a chance to steal my luggage again!

The point I am making is, professional thieves are FAST. If Rudy was an experienced thief, he wouldn't have hung around at all, and, in fact, his shoeprints show him fleeing straight out of the apartment. Burglars are in and out of properties in a flash. They certainly do not hang around for an hour and a half, as the PIP are claiming.

ETA IMV, if Rudy was a "burglar interrupted", he would have simply grabbed Mez' bag and ran with it. In common with other thieves, he'd likely have quickly assessed its contents - taken the cash and cards and phone, and then discarded the bag over the nearest wall.