Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

OK, fair enough. Thanks for the correction. Judge Heavey was reprimanded for improperly using judicial headed paper.

When Mignini was censured recently, you were crowing.

There you go, spoiling my fun. Admitting to a mistake. Damn. Good on you and fair enough.

The big difference though, Vixen, was that Mignini actually was censured - by his peers. For denying an accused a fundamental legal right. Denying that right to someone eventually cleared of all charges - which leaves the odor of Mignini actually trying to create a link to a crime, rather than following procedure in search for truth.

You said Judge Heavey had been sacked for his transgression. He wasn't. In fact his transgression would probably have gone unnoticed unless he himself turned himself in! (Do you not see the difference between Mignini and Heavey?)

Apologizing is half of it, and for that I appreciate it. The other half is committing yourself to the facts BEFORE sitting in front of the computer!

 

[Bill Williams]

Perhaps the phenomenon of people hero-worshipping notorious criminals (Manson, Ronnie Biggs, Al Capone, Columbine killers) can be thus explained.

It could be murderer groupies latch onto their heroes for doing something they fantasise about, i.e., act out the groupies' own aggressive anti-authority impulses.Stephen King is more supernatural horror.

It's not bad enough that you tell lies about Washington State judges. Now you have to make libelous comments about your opponents. I suppose it is too much to ask if you have any actual evidence to support your libel..... oh, never mind.

 

[bagels]

You are either being obtuse (most likely) or simply unable to grasp that there are psychologically damaged people who will act out fantasies of sex and violence. Both Raff and Amanda had strong anti-social fantasies before the murder. That's not to say everyone who fantasises acts them out. However, get two - or three - unstable sociopaths together (cf Venables and Thompson; Leopold & Leob, Bonnie and Clyde, Klebold and Harris, the Manson Family) and one acts as as the catalyst to the other.

There's a strong "whack-a-mole" approach to every PGP argument. You always take each issue currently being discussed as if it doesn't exist in a broader context. For example right now you're arguing as if the PIP's only claim is Amanda and Raff seemed liked normal kids therefore they're innocent no matter the evidence while you point out that seemingly good kids could be secret psychopaths. Or if we say the evidence is weak you would go, ah but they're clearly evil kids and therefore guilty. But they're not evil kids...well kids that don't seem evil could be secret psychopaths...whack-a-mole.

This case is extremely unique among wrongful conviction cases in that there are multiple independent factors corroborating the weakness of the case. No PGP ever seems to acknowledge the factors as a whole taken together. Another case currently being discussed on this board is Steven Avery, well whatever the truth is there the fact is the case for innocence hangs on one factor, that the police planted evidence. If they didn't, it instantly becomes a pretty watertight case.

Let's consider all the factors in the Knox case:

1. The prosecution's evidence, even taken at face value, is weak at best.

2. The prosecution's crime theory is incoherent and logistically improbable.

3. The prosecution conducted illegal unrecorded interrogations that resulted in the arrests of at least 1 completely innocent person(s) who also claimed they were abused during the interrogation. At the time of the interrogations and arrests they had no evidence against their suspects of any kind. It would be substantially fortunate for them if later evidence would justify their earlier behavior.

4. The hard evidence at the scene all points to a single male perpetrator with a record of committing crimes, with a simple and a coherent crime theory that fits all the evidence at the scene.

What's vitally important is to recognize that each of these factors is independent of the others. The status of one is not at all related or dependent on the status of the others. This contrasts with cases that rest on a single assumption (like the Avery case).

This is what I find most interesting about this case, why is it that the PGP don't just believe Knox is guilty, but that the case is somehow overwhelming and watertight? Why can't you see what everyone else sees?

 

[Grinder]

This is a question for Grinder - as he/she is the undisputed expert of all things related to the Perugia murder.

Sometime ago - I think towards the end of 2015 - you posted one of your early newspaper reports of the autopsy by Dr Lalli which was quite explicit in term of traces of semen were found on the body of Meredith Kercher. You made some kind of comment about this was kind of information/rumour that was circulating in those early days.

I have been methodically searching the various threads and I can't seem to find it - was it my imagination? Have I missed it? Or did someone ask you to remove it as being too explicit?

I have been trying to find it by searching the online newspapers and although I find things from the 5th of November that get very close: eg two attackers believed involved, organic liquids taken for analysis - nothing quite as clear cut as the one I seem to recall you posting.

Would you be able to repost it, post a link or describe where it was you found it? If you do feel it was too explicit then a PM would be just fine.

Thanks in advance
The Query Grinder Team

Very quick response. IIRC the posts you are referring to, involved Rudi in his Skype call saying that he knew they claimed they had found (his?) sperm (in Italian it is the same as semen at least using online translators) but that was impossible. Giacomo (his friend on the call) agreed with the media reports which meant to me they had been made but most likely in Italian media.

The Skype contents are available on several sites including the PG wiki and amandaknoxcase.com.

Early reports indicated consensual sex but I don't think the English language media said anything about semen or sperm.

 

[Vixen]

It's not bad enough that you tell lies about Washington State judges. Now you have to make libelous comments about your opponents. I suppose it is too much to ask if you have any actual evidence to support your libel..... oh, never mind.

Bill, please name the people being libelled.

 

[acbytesla]

Perhaps the phenomenon of people hero-worshipping notorious criminals (Manson, Ronnie Biggs, Al Capone, Columbine killers) can be thus explained.

It could be murderer groupies latch onto their heroes for doing something they fantasise about, i.e., act out the groupies' own aggressive anti-authority impulses.

Stephen King is more supernatural horror.

There's a difference between reading, even reveling in something and worshipping. I also went to watch the Rocky Horror picture show and haven't turned into a Transylvania transvestite either. Or fly the Millennium Falcon or travel back in time in a DeLorean or a Hot Tub. Still waiting for a real hover board though.

 

[Grinder]

dup

 

[Vixen]

There's a difference between reading, even reveling in something and worshipping. I also went to watch the Rocky Horror picture show and haven't turned into a Transylvania transvestite either. Or fly the Millennium Falcon or travel back in time in a DeLorean or a Hot Tub. Still waiting for a real hover board though.

Aka the "I-know-a-man-who-smoked-100-cigarettes-a-day-since-age-11-and-lived-to-be-103" logical fallacy.

First of all, you have to have a sociopathic tendency in the first place. Secondly, you need to disinhibited, for example, drunk, on drugs, or in a heightened state, such as rage. Thirdly, there will be clues in the background, for example, eye-brow raising behaviour. Lastly, murder is extremely rare.

Also, living in a fantasy world is often a teenage phenomenon that people grow out of, for example role-playing heavy metal, goth or new romantics.

The Kercher murder is not a normal occurence, hence the perps are unlikely to be normal persons. So it was quite rational for the police to consider psychopathology.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill, please name the people being libelled.

Apparently, only you know. Please don't tell me this is yet another flippant, evidenceless comment made - just because.

 

[Grinder]

Yet lots of people who are perfectly normal like Marilyn Manson, horror books and movies.

It's a stretch Vixen and the evidence doesn't support it.

How convenient,. Never mind that no one else who knows either of them describe them that way. In fact people who know Amanda describe her as kind, caring, goofy. "One of the nicest persons I know" said Judge Heavey's daughter. "Willing to help anyone in need" said Madison Paxton. Became very close with the priest at the prison and contihues to exchange letters with him.

Hmm mm makes you wonder.

No, you are being obtuse. There is no evidence of any violent behavior in either Amanda"s or Raffaele's background. So your conclusion is absurd. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Interesting thatAmanda met Raffaele not at a Marilyn Manson concert, but a classical concert.
Neither Amanda or Raffaele were disaffected loners. They were perfectly adjusted 20 year olds. Amanda was having the time of her life.

I'm not sure what's humorous about it. Raffaele likes Manga.?so what? So interesting that they watched Amelie that night. They watch a very sweet romantic comedy. Yea, I can see the link to violent crime.

There's a big difference between us Vixen. I follow the trail of evidence. I don't blaze my own way. I don't assume that someone who likes Marilyn Manson and owns a couple of knives is Jack the Rjpper. That one thing sometimes follows another does not mean there is a link between the two. Your case is built entirely on fabrications and wild speculations.

Whereas blind morons could follow the trail to Rudy. I gjved you the Perugian police.

I've read Thomas Harris, Stephen King George and Anne Rule. Guess I'm doomed to be a serial killer.

There's a difference between reading, even reveling in something and worshipping. I also went to watch the Rocky Horror picture show and haven't turned into a Transylvania transvestite either. Or fly the Millennium Falcon or travel back in time in a DeLorean or a Hot Tub. Still waiting for a real hover board though.

You seem to have a 9 lbs sized boulder in your shoe. Why so serious ?

 

[Bill Williams]

The Kercher murder is not a normal occurence, hence the perps are unlikely to be normal persons. So it was quite rational for the police to consider psychopathology.

So? The police are paid to trace down leads. By all accounts, the "psychopathology" lead went nowhere, with the exception of a lone hand-writing analysis made available to the Rudy fast-track process.

That turned out to be so convincing that no other court and no other prosecutor, and no other judge convicting or otherwise made mention of it.

The only people who make mention of it are anonymous arm-chair detectives on obscure websites, this one included. These libellous statements are made, when reputable professionals would never say the equivalent even after several clinical settings in controlled conditions.

By, hey, it's simply fun to accuse strangers, anonymously, of being psychopaths or having some sort of psychopathology.

 

[Grinder]

Aka the "I-know-a-man-who-smoked-100-cigarettes-a-day-since-age-11-and-lived-to-be-103" logical fallacy.

First of all, you have to have a sociopathic tendency in the first place. Secondly, you need to disinhibited, for example, drunk, on drugs, or in a heightened state, such as rage. Thirdly, there will be clues in the background, for example, eye-brow raising behaviour. Lastly, murder is extremely rare.

Also, living in a fantasy world is often a teenage phenomenon that people grow out of, for example role-playing heavy metal, goth or new romantics.

The Kercher murder is not a normal occurence, hence the perps are unlikely to be normal persons. So it was quite rational for the police to consider psychopathology.

Well my mom smoked for 80 years and died at 99 1/2 and the doctor wrote smoking contributed to her death...so did water and air.

The Kercher murder is a normal occurrence, one that happens every day. What exactly is normal? I think some of the craziest people in the world are vying to be President of the US but doubt any of them has committed murder.

What percentage of girls that write a rape fantasy go on to commit a gang rape and murder?

 

[Samzilla]

I've read Thomas Harris, Stephen King George and Anne Rule. Guess I'm doomed to be a serial killer.

Wow. I was really tired when I wrote that. "Movie" singular? "Violence crime"? Womp womp to me.

 

[Grinder]

There you go, spoiling my fun. Admitting to a mistake. Damn. Good on you and fair enough.

The big difference though, Vixen, was that Mignini actually was censured - by his peers. For denying an accused a fundamental legal right. Denying that right to someone eventually cleared of all charges - which leaves the odor of Mignini actually trying to create a link to a crime, rather than following procedure in search for truth.

You said Judge Heavey had been sacked for his transgression. He wasn't. In fact his transgression would probably have gone unnoticed unless he himself turned himself in! (Do you not see the difference between Mignini and Heavey?)

Apologizing is half of it, and for that I appreciate it. The other half is committing yourself to the facts BEFORE sitting in front of the computer!

Looks like you will owe another apology. Where do you get your information?
You should couch your proclamations with weasel words for CYA.

He had a complaint file by one of the PGP perhaps a bystander.

I wrote that Judge Heavey wrote to the to the Italian council that regulates judges to protest the leaks from the prosecutor, police and prison officials to the tabloid press. Well, I read last month in Mary Whisner blog last month that the judge was accused by the Judicial Conduct Commission of violating judicial ethics rules by writing that letter. The complaint alleges that Heavey misused the prestige of his office by advocating for Knox and criticizing the Italian authorities prosecuting the case. The complaint alleges that Heavey may have violated the state rule that judges “should not lend the prestige of judicial office to advance the private interests of the judge or others.” Apparently, what real irked the commission is that Heavey wrote the letter on official court stationary. In Heavey’s response that he filed with the commission, he seems to concede that he should not have used official stationary. Judge Heavey’s daughters attended the same school as Amanda Knox.​

The CJC began its inquiry last year, though it isn't so far saying who filed a complaint and why. Seattleites remain divided over Knox's guilt or innocence and one Italian prosecutor was especially testy about criticism eliminating from here; at one point he threatened to sue the West Seattle Herald for quoting Knox supporters who called him "mentally unstable."

Following a CJC probe, Heavey responded with his side of the story. The commission subsequently concluded that the judge violated the conduct code. Heavey, in a statement on Tuesday, denied the violations:
​

 

[acbytesla]

Aka the "I-know-a-man-who-smoked-100-cigarettes-a-day-since-age-11-and-lived-to-be-103" logical fallacy.

First of all, you have to have a sociopathic tendency in the first place. Secondly, you need to disinhibited, for example, drunk, on drugs, or in a heightened state, such as rage. Thirdly, there will be clues in the background, for example, eye-brow raising behaviour. Lastly, murder is extremely rare.

Also, living in a fantasy world is often a teenage phenomenon that people grow out of, for example role-playing heavy metal, goth or new romantics.

The Kercher murder is not a normal occurence, hence the perps are unlikely to be normal persons. So it was quite rational for the police to consider psychopathology.

You start with a faulty premises and follow it up with fabricated suggestions. I'd agree that the person who murdered Meredith has some problems, but there is no evidence at all that the person who killed her was Amanda or Raffaele. There is also no evidence that proves that either Amanda or Raffaele are sociopaths or that they consumed anything other than cannabis. So whether they like Marilyn Manson or Nat King Cole is irrelevant.

Your reasoning is circular.

 

[acbytesla]

You seem to have a 9 lbs sized boulder in your shoe. Why so serious ?

Now you're getting it Grinder. I like it when you quote the Joker.

 

[Bill Williams]

He had a complaint file by one of the PGP perhaps a bystander.

LOL! Was this bystander "skeptical"?

 

[Vixen]

Apparently, only you know. Please don't tell me this is yet another flippant, evidenceless comment made - just because.

For some reason, you immediately thought it was referring to one of your ilk.

Interesting observation, that you associated murderer groupies with people you know!

 

[acbytesla]

For some reason, you immediately thought it was referring to one of your ilk.

Interesting observation, that you associated murderer groupies with people you know!

Really? Now you're just being silly.

 

[acbytesla]

Well my mom smoked for 80 years and died at 99 1/2 and the doctor wrote smoking contributed to her death...so did water and air.

The Kercher murder is a normal occurrence, one that happens every day. What exactly is normal? I think some of the craziest people in the world are vying to be President of the US but doubt any of them has committed murder.

What percentage of girls that write a rape fantasy go on to commit a gang rape and murder?

You see Grinder. I knew you had a sense of humor.