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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I don't think it was Profazio. My memory has another name associated with that phrase.
Arturo De Felice said it at the Press Conference.

Here's what the Amandaknoxcase.com has: Police Chief Arturo De Felice as quoted in the Giornale dell’Umbria on November 7, 2007:[3]

I have to compliment our men and our women (the interpreters) that in 4 days and 4 nights, with professionalism and integrity, have resolved the case. In these days, we have felt the weight, the pressure of the people of the city, and of the mass media. Everybody wanted an immediate and certain response. It seems to me we have responded, almost immediately.


Certainly is almost "case closed" but I was under the impression it was a direct quote after translation.

Perhaps another fable. In this case of no importance and minor interest.
 
Here's what the Amandaknoxcase.com has: Police Chief Arturo De Felice as quoted in the Giornale dell’Umbria on November 7, 2007:[3]

I have to compliment our men and our women (the interpreters) that in 4 days and 4 nights, with professionalism and integrity, have resolved the case. In these days, we have felt the weight, the pressure of the people of the city, and of the mass media. Everybody wanted an immediate and certain response. It seems to me we have responded, almost immediately.


Certainly is almost "case closed" but I was under the impression it was a direct quote after translation.

Perhaps another fable. In this case of no importance and minor interest.

Keep looking. Nina, Candace, Andrea and a few Italian publications seem to associate that phrase with De Felice with that phrase at that press conference. That said, I also found Google searches that also do reference Profazio.
 
This article from the 6th quotes it as "sostanzialmente chiusa" - substantially closed. No name though.

Thanks, Doesn't really mean anything but If they never said caso chiuso it would be interesting to know when those words first appeared.
 
I don't think it was Profazio. My memory has another name associated with that phrase.
Arturo De Felice said it at the Press Conference.

Don't drift the topic too much.

There was Nadeau and CALLAN citing the Kercher case as an example of police incompetence, hoping that the Olsen case does not go the same was. And it was Nadeau citing Profazio as the detective involved in both.

My how people come around. First Vogt, now Nadeau and Callan. Who's going to be left to vilify the innocents?
 
Keep looking. Nina, Candace, Andrea and a few Italian publications seem to associate that phrase with De Felice with that phrase at that press conference. That said, I also found Google searches that also do reference Profazio.

Here might be the first mention from a seattle blog site:

So that's it then? The Perugia polizia interrogate her for three days, probably with no lawyer present, certainly with no American lawyer present, there's a confession and "caso chiuso?" Why bother with a trial at all? The English media has already dug up plenty of evidence from the detritus a student leaves on the internet in the course of a modern life. There's Myspace, where Amanda once wrote a story about rape, the Youtube video where she appears intoxicated, a picture of her posing in an intimidating fashion with a machine gun, and no doubt her recent Twitters will be brought to light any day now by the hard-Googling British press.
Contact the author of this article or email [email protected] with further questions, comments or tips.
By Dan in News on November 7, 2007 10:24 AM


I found this Italian source but from the 9th. My search was through the 10th but one would think the press conference on the 6th would be reported by then and the "caso chiuso" should be in the reports.

Meredith, sms, bugie e tracce
i punti oscuri dell'indagine
di CARLO BONINI

<B>Meredith, sms, bugie e tracce<br>i punti oscuri dell'indagine</B>
Amanda Knox e Raffaele Sollecito CHI ha fatto cosa? E come? E perché? Frettolosamente proposto come "caso chiuso", l'indagine sull'omicidio di Meredith Kercher mostra una scena ancora aperta.

Who did what? And how? And why? Hastily proposed as a "case closed", the investigation into the murder of Meredith Kercher shows a scene still open. Investigators - as honestly acknowledged again yesterday in the late afternoon - working on material circumstantial fluid.


http://www.repubblica.it/2007/11/se...-uccisa2/perugia-uccisa2/perugia-uccisa2.html

I think this would be great to get a real translation because it seems the paper was questioning the whole early PLE work.
 
As far as I can tell, the Seattle blog is quoting a Daily Mail article that no longer exist, the Mail article has the "case closed" quote. I found another website with the same quote also linking to the Daily Mail.
 
It reminds me of the West Memphis Three case when the detective, when asked about how strong the case was, said "An Eleven."

I guess it might be just be "Fake it until you make it." Don't actually have any real evidence but if you assert strongly enough, you can convince others.
 
Page 12 from this Archivio Penale, Guiseppe Castellini editor at Giornale dell'Umbria, has Profazio announcing ' caso chiuso'.

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Giuseppe-Castellinis-Ebook.pdf


Yes, I thought it was Profazio too. And I thought it was one of those things that was being bandied around "off the record" as such, by the beaming cops who were basking in the glory of having "solv-ed ze crime" (c. Inspector Clouseau) in front of the world's media at that triumphalist press conference.

I don't think that this phrase was necessarily said in front of a microphone as part of the official press conference. Rather, as I say, I think it was being said around the room by Profazio (and maybe other officers) who were pumped full of pride, hubris, excitement and extreme self-importance. Probably someone who was present at the press conference would know for sure.
 
It reminds me of the West Memphis Three case when the detective, when asked about how strong the case was, said "An Eleven."

I guess it might be just be "Fake it until you make it." Don't actually have any real evidence but if you assert strongly enough, you can convince others.


All this points so strongly to a very significant driver of miscarriages of justice: the fact that police are hard-coded to "catch criminals", and that pretty much their entire measure of success - both career/financial and emotional - is directly related to how many crimes they "solve". And as a counterpoint to that, police who don't "solve crimes" don't tend to get on in their careers, and they don't tend to get the public attention/adulation.

I think this was by far the main driver of the types of negligence, confirmation bias and potential misconduct that we saw in the Knox/Sollecito case. I don't for one moment think there was a conscious effort to "fit up" Knox or Sollecito on the part of police or prosecutor. I think that the authorities genuinely thought (and convinced themselves very early on) that they'd figured it out, and from then on it was merely a case of getting the required evidence to prove their thesis. Thus they fully expected Sollecito, then Knox in turn, to crack under pressure in interrogation and tell them what they already "knew" to be true. And thus they were pre-conditioned to believe that Sollecito, then Knox, really DID crumble and make genuine, reliable confessions/accusations. So that's indeed what they saw.

Same with the forensics. They "knew" that Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba Guede had committed this crime jointly, so they "knew" there must be some forensic evidence pointing to that and supporting that. If at first they didn't find any? Try, try again! It MUST be there, because they "knew" how the murder had gone down. Stuff that didn't support their theory or that contradicted their theory? They could safely disregard that because it MUST have been due to other factors (mistakes in the lab, scientific margins of error, literally anything else), because they already "knew" how the murder had happened.

When the police and PM nailed their colours to the mast by announcing that they'd cracked the case in that extraordinary press conference on 6th November, they only reinforced the confirmation-bias burden they'd already set themselves. They were able to perform the sleight-of-hand to substitute Guede for Lumumba, since they could hide behind the excuse that Knox had deliberately and mendaciously deceived them (while being able at the same time to maintain that their underlying premise was still accurate, and the product of great police work and superior intuition). In addition, the Perugia police and PM had come under serious scrutiny and criticism almost exactly a year earlier for bungling the investigation into another case that bore certain similarities to the Kercher case. I believe that this - either consciously or unconsciously - played a factor in the need of the police and PM to be recognised as the superior, efficient, super-fast, intuitive crime-solvers that they knew themselves to be.


(Another very notable US case where there was a triumphalist post-arrest press conference was that of the BTK killer in Wichita. IIIRC, the chief of police finished the presser with the beaming pronouncement along the lines of "Bottom line: BTK is arrested", and received cheers and applause from his audience. Fortunately, in that instance at least he was in some sort of position to say those words with confidence, since the police already had a definitive link through highly-reliable DNA. But even so, it was still another example of police finding it irresistible to bask in the glory of having "solved the crime", long before any trial ever started, let alone any conviction.)
 
Yes, I thought it was Profazio too. And I thought it was one of those things that was being bandied around "off the record" as such, by the beaming cops who were basking in the glory of having "solv-ed ze crime" (c. Inspector Clouseau) in front of the world's media at that triumphalist press conference.

I don't think that this phrase was necessarily said in front of a microphone as part of the official press conference. Rather, as I say, I think it was being said around the room by Profazio (and maybe other officers) who were pumped full of pride, hubris, excitement and extreme self-importance. Probably someone who was present at the press conference would know for sure.

There's a point being missed here in 2016.

None other that Barbie Nadeau is shopping around the 2007 declaration of Case Closed in the Kercher arrests as a cautionary tale while coverimg the Olsen homicide in Florence.

Barbie Nadeau!

She's i.d.ing the Case Closed cop as Profazio. The very same cop who none other than CNN's Paul Callan said participated in destroying Amanda Knox's life.

Paul Callan!

Regardless of 2007 this is 2016. Has the irony escaped everyone?

Nadeau certainly made use of the PR Supertanker meme to explain her waning influence on the US media for the Kercher coverage. Now she's on the bridge of the Supertanker!

Hoots!
 
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Page 12 from this Archivio Penale, Guiseppe Castellini editor at Giornale dell'Umbria, has Profazio announcing ' caso chiuso'.

http://amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Giuseppe-Castellinis-Ebook.pdf

Could you explain exactly what this as it was written in 2012? By that time "caso chiuso" was in the narrative. Annella do you speak Italian?

I did a fair amount of searching during the reporting period of the conference and do not find any reports of "caso chiuso" at the time. As I said above I found the PI saying it was a cop at the gate and the amandaknoxcase.com having De Felice saying something similar at the press conference.

I do not think this is important but if someone found a contemporaneous report and shared it that would be of interest.

Many things in this case have led people to believe factoids. Many including myself were surprised Nara had given testimony only three weeks after the arrest.

ETA - I Google translated and don't see Profazio's name and something that seems to say the US media started the Foxy Knoxy meme. At best the US media did it in concert with british tabs but my recollection is the tabs started it in English.

Although rich in details about the characters arrested (the website of Sollecito,
for example, from which it seemed to reveal a passion for knives and
strong emotions), however, were the US media to launch the image of
Amanda as "Foxy Knoxy" (the "Vulpecula", or the "sly"). And by this
Amanda is time to play the role of protagonist on the scene. Before
as the smart girl, sexually uninhibited (among the most cited particular, the vibrator
that would have kept in a handbag, and once, placed on the bracket
the bathroom, according to the account of one of the friends of Meredith, which was
FILE CRIMINAL 2012, n. 2
13
He was told by the British student), capable of plots, seductress, bewitching.
Then, the process in the first instance, as a victim of this
supplied by the media. The titles of local newspapers, the 7 morning, were similar: "Mez
He killed by his friends. " Complete with a hypothesis of "feast" that went wrong.
To confuse the waters of the "case closed", and to make the story a real
and its yellow (that is, beyond the acquittal on appeal
for Amanda and Raffaele), there is the discovery - November 16 -, by the
laboratory analysis of forensics, numerous traces linked to crime
and found in the house (including the feces in the bathroom, in addition to the DNA in the vagina
Meredith and much more) that lead to a fourth person, whose imprints
 
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There's a point being missed here in 2016.

None other that Barbie Nadeau is shopping around the 2007 declaration of Case Closed in the Kercher arrests as a cautionary tale while coverimg the Olsen homicide in Florence.

Bill we all can have the interests we choose. You have great interest in Barbie and Vogt, fine.

I am interested in how the narrative was formed and find interesting that Profazio is now attributed with "caso chiuso" yet I nor anyone else can provide a report issued at the time by an Italian source.

Barbie was always a space case. I've mention the Australian Dateline interview with Vogt, Nadeau, Pisa and an Italian reporter many times (I think it's gone now) and Nadeau just babbles. She wasn't an accurate reporter at the time and I don't believe her today without corroboration.

Though "caso chiuso" hasn't been a mainstay for me it has been used extensively by many and I'm just curious if anyone actually said it and who it was? But it isn't a big deal.

I don't believe Barbie was even there for the press conference.

ETA - The first report from Barbie I can find was Nov. 14. http://www.newsweek.com/perugias-extreme-sex-murder-97137
 
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Bill we all can have the interests we choose. You have great interest in Barbie and Vogt, fine.

I am interested in how the narrative was formed and find interesting that Profazio is now attributed with "caso chiuso" yet I nor anyone else can provide a report issued at the time by an Italian source.

Barbie was always a space case. I've mention the Australian Dateline interview with Vogt, Nadeau, Pisa and an Italian reporter many times (I think it's gone now) and Nadeau just babbles. She wasn't an accurate reporter at the time and I don't believe her today without corroboration.

Though "caso chiuso" hasn't been a mainstay for me it has been used extensively by many and I'm just curious if anyone actually said it and who it was? But it isn't a big deal.

I don't believe Barbie was even there for the press conference.

ETA - The first report from Barbie I can find was Nov. 14. http://www.newsweek.com/perugias-extreme-sex-murder-97137

This is a puzzling post. Both Vogt and Nadeau were part of developing a false narrative, the one you are currently having trouble sorting out from the original days. Fine.

You dismiss its relevance for 2016 and the Olsen case, then go about trying to sort it out, claiming it's "not a big deal".

The Kercher case is for all purposes closed. In 2016 "journalists" in Italy are referencing memes from that history as part of the Olsen case. A real, live case where little is yet known. Yet Profazio is in charge and Nadeau and Callan are reversing field from stands they held fast to years ago, hoping that Profzio does not victimize someone in the Olsen case the way he did Knox in the Kercher case with his..... "case closed".

That's not hard to grasp, and it is at least relevant to 2016 rather than this constant rehashing of what now amounts to ancient history.
 
This is a puzzling post. Both Vogt and Nadeau were part of developing a false narrative, the one you are currently having trouble sorting out from the original days. Fine.

You dismiss its relevance for 2016 and the Olsen case, then go about trying to sort it out, claiming it's "not a big deal".

I don't think whether they actually said "caso chiuso" is important but I am interested in how it became part of the narrative. Clear?

The Kercher case is for all purposes closed. In 2016 "journalists" in Italy are referencing memes from that history as part of the Olsen case. A real, live case where little is yet known. Yet Profazio is in charge and Nadeau and Callan are reversing field from stands they held fast to years ago, hoping that Profzio does not victimize someone in the Olsen case the way he did Knox in the Kercher case with his..... "case closed".

Can you expand on who Callan is/was and why his/her opinion is of significance? I don't think you read and listened to Barbie years ago. She was always wishy washy stating after the first trial that the defense could have done much better. She also reported mixed blood.

That's not hard to grasp, and it is at least relevant to 2016 rather than this constant rehashing of what now amounts to ancient history.

It isn't ancient history and much is coming out now. You have little interest in how the narrative developed except the negative to the kids side.

There has been a verdict of not guilty. Nadeau along with many people think authority has great value. There are all sorts of false narratives associated with this case and at this point it appears "caso chiusa" is one of them along with who allegedly spoke the words.
 
A further puzzling post, but I'll give it a go. Today is a slow day.

I don't think whether they actually said "caso chiuso" is important but I am interested in how it became part of the narrative. Clear?
"Clear?" Not really.

It would be highly interesting, to Kercher murder historians like yourself, if the Cased Closed meme somehow became part of the narrative, but was not actually said by anyone.

The point being - just so that I, too, do not participate in the topic drift too much - Barbie Nadeau in 2016 is crediting Profazio as the author of "Case Closed" back in Novemebr 2007, a case then involving Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba. Nadeau, in 2016, is citing that as part of the current Olsen tragedy, as a cautionary tale. This cautionary tale is aimed straight at Profazio - involved as lead detective (acc. to Nadeau) in the Olsen case, a caution that he not go off the rails like he did 8 years ago.

Eight years.

Can you expand on who Callan is/was and why his/her opinion is of significance?
Callan was one of the last of the reputable CNN-legal-analysts who variously:

1) expressed doubt that Knox was wholey innocent
2) suggested that Knox could have been both charged and convicted in the U.S. on the similar facts.
The one appearance on CNN I remember particularly was on Erin Burnett, when Steve Moore was also on. This was just after the Nencini conviction, but before the Nencini motivations report.

Both Callan and Moore had to rein in Burnett, who non sequitorially was particularly obsessed with "Amanda's behaviour" (as if cartwheels had had anything to do with this). Both Moore and Callan were guessing as to why a second appeals' level court would convict - Steve Moore said predictable things, because we know his point of view. Moore kept repeating things like, "I can't see how the court could convict the pair, the evidence doesn't sustain it, and the actual new evidence the Nencini court heard all went Amanda'sway."

Callan was more than just contrary for contrary's sake. He cited the DNA evidence as conclusive. Unless I'm conflating things with other Callan pieces I saw, he also cited changing stories and lack of alibis. He seemed to be saying that without getting deep into the case, it was easy to see why a prosecutor would charge her, and a court would convict her.

Then comes the Olsen case. Marriott must have bought off Callan in the meantime, because Callan did not appear terriblyfrightened by Steve Moore. Callan's now calling Knox a victim of Italian police incompetence, which Erin Burnett (and Anderson Cooper) is pairing with Nadeau in the same 2016 newspiece about Olsen where Case Closer Profazio is lead detective.

I don't think you read and listened to Barbie years ago. She was always wishy washy stating after the first trial that the defense could have done much better. She also reported mixed blood.
I love it when you try to pull rank like this. It's as if you're unaware that things like Google-search and YouTube don't exist!

Hoots!

It isn't ancient history and much is coming out now. You have little interest in how the narrative developed except the negative to the kids side.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I now know not to include you as a reference in a job search.

I think (in broad terms) it is clear how the narrative developed. There were days when cops were falling all over themselves trying to take credit for "case closed" or "Knox buckled and told us what we already knew"....

...... now its up to erstwhile historians named Grinder to sort that out, because all those people are running in the opposite direction. Vogt has moved from, "Knox is guilty as per what Mignini said, and as I have passed to Peggy Ganong," to, "now we'll never know what happened."

The very first YouTube video I saw of Nadeau, when I thought she had the hermeneutical keys to unlock this, mentioned the drugged-up and sexed-up student scene of Perugia into which Knox and Kercher landed in 2007. Then she started saying things like (heavy paraphrase alert!): "How could these naive sweet-waifs NOT resist a threesome under those conditions?"

Fast forward to 2016. That's the point.

There has been a verdict of not guilty. Nadeau along with many people think authority has great value. There are all sorts of false narratives associated with this case and at this point it appears "caso chiusa" is one of them along with who allegedly spoke the words.
Nadeau has put her finger in the air and wonders how she can monetize this new scene. She fears having Winterbottom make another film about her. She does not come off very well in that film.
 
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Bill I thought about your posts on my walk. Barbie is writing about a current case with the vast majority of the readers not particularly familiar with the Meredith K case. Writing that the same cop is involved spices it up. She doesn't mention "case closed" "caso chiusa" or Profazio in her book from "looking inside" on Amazon.

Having read early reports and posts while looking for "caso chiuso" etc. I was amazed to find how early the guilt narrative was formed, really before Barbie's first article, so I wouldn't credit her with having a major impact although she did repeat it often on US TV.

I'm still missing why you think Barbie's comments about the latest murder are so significant.
 
Bill I thought about your posts on my walk. Barbie is writing about a current case with the vast majority of the readers not particularly familiar with the Meredith K case. Writing that the same cop is involved spices it up. She doesn't mention "case closed" "caso chiusa" or Profazio in her book from "looking inside" on Amazon.

Having read early reports and posts while looking for "caso chiuso" etc. I was amazed to find how early the guilt narrative was formed, really before Barbie's first article, so I wouldn't credit her with having a major impact although she did repeat it often on US TV.

I'm still missing why you think Barbie's comments about the latest murder are so significant.

The worst tragedy at this point is that I interfered with your walk. My apologies!

As for me, my opinions about Barbie's comments are insignificant. Truly. I'm surprised anyone gives them the time of day, lets then interfere with a communing-time with nature, or even slags them or directs an ad hominem in my direction (which you have never done, just to make that clear).

My sole contribution, a minor one really, is to point out that CNN is still going to Nadeau for crime-stories in Italy, and of all the things Nadeau said the one comment they did not edit out was the one about Profazio. In fact they bolstered it by then going to Callan, on CNN retainer. (Like Nadeau and ironicly Steve Moore! Hoots!)

'Twasn't me, dude. Don't shoot the piano player - or maybe you're too young to remember Elton John.

We need to do coffee, dude.
 
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The Nov 6th Il Sole article quotes from the press conference that the case is "substantially closed." I think this confirms the narrative that the police considered the investigation phase over and that the crime had three perpetrators and those three were in their custody, thanks to getting the truth from their interrogations.

What would be really helpful is if the conference was up on youtube. If you google for the Italian words for press conference and restrict the date to the relevant time, only a couple sites show up. I have a feeling many of the reports of the day are no longer online, or were on TV/newspapers.
 
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